NIP after 16 Days - Pleading Not Guilty - Update
Discussion
peterguk V6 KWK said:
chr15b said:
peterguk V6 KWK said:
Andy Zarse said:
Peter, any news on appeal dates, developements of note etc?
Appeal was supposed to have been Wednesday this week, but Court phoned 4pm Tuesday to adjourn 'til Feb 27th.i still say it's the courts that let us down most in this country
If the Court leaves you sitting with your lawyer all day, his fees mount for nothing.
If the judges had a budget and had to pay for our waiting time and fees, maybe they'd get their arses in gear.
peterguk V6 KWK said:
chr15b said:
peterguk V6 KWK said:
Andy Zarse said:
Peter, any news on appeal dates, developements of note etc?
Appeal was supposed to have been Wednesday this week, but Court phoned 4pm Tuesday to adjourn 'til Feb 27th.i still say it's the courts that let us down most in this country
interstellar said:
What happened here op in the end?
This has come up on a different thread, spent 30 mins reading this one and there is no outcome ?
Gidden v Chief Constable of Humberside [2009] EWHC 2924 (Admin).This has come up on a different thread, spent 30 mins reading this one and there is no outcome ?
https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/5a8ff73c60d0...
agtlaw said:
Gidden v Chief Constable of Humberside [2009] EWHC 2924 (Admin).
https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/5a8ff73c60d0...
Thanks for posting. An interesting read. https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/5a8ff73c60d0...
Yep, interesting read.
I wonder how much it cost the chap to take this to the court of appeal? Hopefully they got some costs back.
And what lessons have been learned by all those involved in the incorrect decisions taken earlier?
A "rebuttable presumption" sounds fancy, but ultimately if the facts don't fit it, it can be argued against.
My own view had been that a postal strike would be a legitimate "out" for the police to say they sent it on time and it's not their fault.
But this judge is basically saying: tough - your job is to get it there in time.
I wonder how much it cost the chap to take this to the court of appeal? Hopefully they got some costs back.
And what lessons have been learned by all those involved in the incorrect decisions taken earlier?
A "rebuttable presumption" sounds fancy, but ultimately if the facts don't fit it, it can be argued against.
My own view had been that a postal strike would be a legitimate "out" for the police to say they sent it on time and it's not their fault.
But this judge is basically saying: tough - your job is to get it there in time.
Ian Geary said:
My own view had been that a postal strike would be a legitimate "out" for the police to say they sent it on time and it's not their fault.
But this judge is basically saying: tough - your job is to get it there in time.
Actually, he's doing the opposite. In paragraph 21, the judge clearly lays out what the police need to do during a postal strike - send NIPs out by registered post or recorded delivery service, and if they don't want to do that, it's up to the parliament to fix the legislation they've left with a specific defect when they amended it in 1994. The preceding paragraphs explain the defective legislation quite clearly. If the police had sent the NIP by either registered post or recorded delivery service, it wouldn't have mattered that it was delayed in the postal strike and was delivered 16 days after the offence, it would have been accepted as served. But this judge is basically saying: tough - your job is to get it there in time.
Hi Guys
It was me that is referred to in the High Court judgement.
To answer some of the questions:
The appeal cost around £15K. I got a vast amount of it back.
A NIP can only be sent by First Class post or Special Delivery (old name Registered). Recorded Delivery is not a service the sender can rely on.
If sent 1st Class, the letter is deemed served 2 business days following posting. However it is a rebuttable presumption of service. If sent Special Delivery, it is presumed served the same day it is posted, whether it arrives or not. But are the Police going to spend £7 a NIP? Of course not.
I have personally assisted 6 or 7 defendants in court (as a McKenzie Friend) where the evidence presented showed the NIP was posted on day 13. Every case dropped.
HTH
It was me that is referred to in the High Court judgement.
To answer some of the questions:
The appeal cost around £15K. I got a vast amount of it back.
A NIP can only be sent by First Class post or Special Delivery (old name Registered). Recorded Delivery is not a service the sender can rely on.
If sent 1st Class, the letter is deemed served 2 business days following posting. However it is a rebuttable presumption of service. If sent Special Delivery, it is presumed served the same day it is posted, whether it arrives or not. But are the Police going to spend £7 a NIP? Of course not.
I have personally assisted 6 or 7 defendants in court (as a McKenzie Friend) where the evidence presented showed the NIP was posted on day 13. Every case dropped.
HTH
jet_noise said:
Do I understand it correctly that if sent by Special Delivery service is not just assumed but not disputable (can't rebut it)?
What happens if, despite the more assured service means, it is actually late or even not received at all?
You are correct, and I think the legal term in such a case would be 'tough'.What happens if, despite the more assured service means, it is actually late or even not received at all?
NFT said:
SS2. said:
You are correct, and I think the legal term in such a case would be 'tough'.
Even if royal mail delivered it late and their own records showed it was lost for a month? That would be 'tough'..petergukM500 said:
Recorded Delivery is not a service the sender can rely on.
What happened to recorded delivery in the legislation?1 (1A) A notice required by this section to be served on any person may be served on that person— ...
(c)by sending it by registered post, recorded delivery service or first class post addressed to him at his last known address.
NFT said:
Even if royal mail delivered it late and their own records showed it was lost for a month? That would be 'tough'..
(2) A notice shall be deemed for the purposes of subsection (1)(c) above to have been served on a person if it was sent by registered post or recorded delivery service addressed to him at his last known address, notwithstanding that the notice was returned as undelivered or was for any other reason not received by him.Zeeky said:
(2) A notice shall be deemed for the purposes of subsection (1)(c) above to have been served on a person if it was sent by registered post or recorded delivery service addressed to him at his last known address, notwithstanding that the notice was returned as undelivered or was for any other reason not received by him.
They set out to exclude that then.. What lovely souls.petergukM500 said:
Hi Guys
It was me that is referred to in the High Court judgement.
To answer some of the questions:
The appeal cost around £15K. I got a vast amount of it back.
A NIP can only be sent by First Class post or Special Delivery (old name Registered). Recorded Delivery is not a service the sender can rely on.
If sent 1st Class, the letter is deemed served 2 business days following posting. However it is a rebuttable presumption of service. If sent Special Delivery, it is presumed served the same day it is posted, whether it arrives or not. But are the Police going to spend £7 a NIP? Of course not.
I have personally assisted 6 or 7 defendants in court (as a McKenzie Friend) where the evidence presented showed the NIP was posted on day 13. Every case dropped.
HTH
My hat goes off to someone willing to risk £15k to appeal an NIP - How certain were you that you would win?It was me that is referred to in the High Court judgement.
To answer some of the questions:
The appeal cost around £15K. I got a vast amount of it back.
A NIP can only be sent by First Class post or Special Delivery (old name Registered). Recorded Delivery is not a service the sender can rely on.
If sent 1st Class, the letter is deemed served 2 business days following posting. However it is a rebuttable presumption of service. If sent Special Delivery, it is presumed served the same day it is posted, whether it arrives or not. But are the Police going to spend £7 a NIP? Of course not.
I have personally assisted 6 or 7 defendants in court (as a McKenzie Friend) where the evidence presented showed the NIP was posted on day 13. Every case dropped.
HTH
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