Brunstrom on drugs
Discussion
V8, some good points. However, most of the drugs we now consider illegal were once legal (opium, LSD etc all were once).
Have a look at this article on Khat http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3461995.stm . Sounds abit like the canabis debate to me, except this drug is potentialy more dangerous, and yet it's currently legal with no plans to make it illegal.
The thing of making the drugs legal means you can control the supply and have licensed drug companies doing the manufacturing. Cutting the current mobsters out of the equation (okay not quite that simple I know).
Have a look at this article on Khat http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3461995.stm . Sounds abit like the canabis debate to me, except this drug is potentialy more dangerous, and yet it's currently legal with no plans to make it illegal.
The thing of making the drugs legal means you can control the supply and have licensed drug companies doing the manufacturing. Cutting the current mobsters out of the equation (okay not quite that simple I know).
Whatever your opinion on the Drugs thing I think that:
"it's perfectly possible to lead a normal life for a full life span and hold down a job while being addicted to the drug" (heroin)
Is a bit OTT, I mean would you want to be cared for by a Doctor etc who was a junkie?
and what about Driving - people with jobs and normal lives often drive. Is it 'perfectly possible' for a junkie to drive as long as he sticks to the speed (sic) limit?
Remember "drifting a few miles an hour over the limit is no different from drifting a knife into someones back"
Maybe he's secretly developed a 'Drug-Drive Gatso' so he can NIP'n60quid'em.
Whichever way you look at it he's a
"it's perfectly possible to lead a normal life for a full life span and hold down a job while being addicted to the drug" (heroin)
Is a bit OTT, I mean would you want to be cared for by a Doctor etc who was a junkie?
and what about Driving - people with jobs and normal lives often drive. Is it 'perfectly possible' for a junkie to drive as long as he sticks to the speed (sic) limit? Remember "drifting a few miles an hour over the limit is no different from drifting a knife into someones back"
Maybe he's secretly developed a 'Drug-Drive Gatso' so he can NIP'n60quid'em. Whichever way you look at it he's a
Hi Guys
I have read this thread end to end. I can see that there are people with very strong opinions both ways and I am not going to try and change those opinions i probably could not any way but maybe I can make a few people think.
I am a plain clothed police officer who has been active in the fight against drugs in my town now for several years. I spend most of my working day with hard drug abusers and i know the effects of Heroin and Amphetamine as well as they do. I have not and never will try either drug but I have seen with my own eyes what they do.
Train spotters Pah its nothing compared with real life. The situations that some of these addicts live in is so bad it is genuinely sub human.
I have crossed swords with Wildcat on both this and other boards but on this occasion I agree with him 100%.
Without going back through the thread I do not know who I am refering to so I appologise but here goes.
'All the poisonous concoctions that it is mixed with.' the vast majority of heroin is mixed once on its arrival in this country and then just sold in smaller and smaller portions to gain value. How do I know? I speak with the forensic science people on a weekly basis thats how! The majority of the mixture is known as 'Bash' and is predominantly paracetamol or similar with something to give it a little colour. Little if anything in the heroin is toxic other than the drug itself.
Get them help as victims as opposed to criminals. Actually not a bad idea in theory but most addicts need to 'detox five six or seven times before they kick their habit so no matter how many times you help them they are going to go out and start again.
If they can get it on prescription you can make them pay for it and they wont go out and buy it illegally.
Well where do I start???? They wont pay for their prescription as they wont be working so they will get it for free and YOU the working tax payer will pay more taxes so that they can get their FIRST supply for free. To make any attempt to wean the addict off their habit the heroin supplied would slowly be weakened so they would buy illegal heroin to boost it up. Even if they did clean up they would continue to collect their free prescription to sell on the black market. (Lets be honest here there is a black market for EVERYTHING - Imported washing powder or dodgy copied CD's anyone!!)
There are allready several NHS supplied drugs that either combat the effects of heroin or replace them. Naltrexone being the former and Methadone being the latter. Naltrexone is either taken orally or placed under the skin. It totally negates the effect of heroin in a way similar to a nicotine patches works on cigarette craving I guess. I know many druggies who stop taking their Naltrexone , sell it otheir mate and use the money to buy heroin???
Methadone brings other problems but again is often sold to people to fund the heroin habit. Methadone is also used often to bring people into the heroin habit. 'Try this mate. It feels the same and you won't get addicted and you don't have to inject it!!' Three weeks later no Methadone , lots of cravings , try heroin , ADDICT!!!!!!!
Do we realy want our youth to grow up knowing that if they go to their doctor and say. ' Hi doc. think I want to try Heroin can i have a prescription please?' that he will give it to them. If he wont then they will have to get it illegally and we are back on the tread mill. I state here and now that if a Dr did that to one of my Children it would be the last prescription he ever wrote!!!!!!!
Enough of the problems what about the solutions.
1. easy up even more on the addicts. The first or second offence of possession in most areas is allready only a verbal caution and even repeated possession offences only get fines unless the quantity is high. allthough I personally do not class self inflicted drug addiction as a disease and there by classify addicts as victims i do agree that they need a lot of help and a little sympathy.
2. Set a level - quite low, maybe 1/4 oz (Over £400 lowest street value at the moment)above which the offence of Possession With Intent to Supply is AUTOMATICALLY proven and set a mandatory minimum sentence of 5 years on FIRST conviction. this would make the dealing of drugs difficult and the deterrent level high. second offence minimum 10 years. No questions.
3. If a drug dealer is sentenced then he will serve a minimum of 3/4s of his sentence IN JAIL!!
I have just read this and it hasgot to be the longest thread I have ever written so I will stop now other than to say.
I see the effects day in day out. I pick up the dead bodies. I tell the parents . I arrest the dealers. i give evidence in court.
I am the one that addicts turn to and say 'Do you know Mr ********* if it wasn't for you i would still be on drugs but you have made it so hard to get I eventually had to stop' Its not said often but its been said a few times.
Tell me i am wrong if you dare.
Emperor Ming (You wouldn't like me when I'm cross)
I have read this thread end to end. I can see that there are people with very strong opinions both ways and I am not going to try and change those opinions i probably could not any way but maybe I can make a few people think.
I am a plain clothed police officer who has been active in the fight against drugs in my town now for several years. I spend most of my working day with hard drug abusers and i know the effects of Heroin and Amphetamine as well as they do. I have not and never will try either drug but I have seen with my own eyes what they do.
Train spotters Pah its nothing compared with real life. The situations that some of these addicts live in is so bad it is genuinely sub human.
I have crossed swords with Wildcat on both this and other boards but on this occasion I agree with him 100%.
Without going back through the thread I do not know who I am refering to so I appologise but here goes.
'All the poisonous concoctions that it is mixed with.' the vast majority of heroin is mixed once on its arrival in this country and then just sold in smaller and smaller portions to gain value. How do I know? I speak with the forensic science people on a weekly basis thats how! The majority of the mixture is known as 'Bash' and is predominantly paracetamol or similar with something to give it a little colour. Little if anything in the heroin is toxic other than the drug itself.
Get them help as victims as opposed to criminals. Actually not a bad idea in theory but most addicts need to 'detox five six or seven times before they kick their habit so no matter how many times you help them they are going to go out and start again.
If they can get it on prescription you can make them pay for it and they wont go out and buy it illegally.
Well where do I start???? They wont pay for their prescription as they wont be working so they will get it for free and YOU the working tax payer will pay more taxes so that they can get their FIRST supply for free. To make any attempt to wean the addict off their habit the heroin supplied would slowly be weakened so they would buy illegal heroin to boost it up. Even if they did clean up they would continue to collect their free prescription to sell on the black market. (Lets be honest here there is a black market for EVERYTHING - Imported washing powder or dodgy copied CD's anyone!!)
There are allready several NHS supplied drugs that either combat the effects of heroin or replace them. Naltrexone being the former and Methadone being the latter. Naltrexone is either taken orally or placed under the skin. It totally negates the effect of heroin in a way similar to a nicotine patches works on cigarette craving I guess. I know many druggies who stop taking their Naltrexone , sell it otheir mate and use the money to buy heroin???
Methadone brings other problems but again is often sold to people to fund the heroin habit. Methadone is also used often to bring people into the heroin habit. 'Try this mate. It feels the same and you won't get addicted and you don't have to inject it!!' Three weeks later no Methadone , lots of cravings , try heroin , ADDICT!!!!!!!
Do we realy want our youth to grow up knowing that if they go to their doctor and say. ' Hi doc. think I want to try Heroin can i have a prescription please?' that he will give it to them. If he wont then they will have to get it illegally and we are back on the tread mill. I state here and now that if a Dr did that to one of my Children it would be the last prescription he ever wrote!!!!!!!
Enough of the problems what about the solutions.
1. easy up even more on the addicts. The first or second offence of possession in most areas is allready only a verbal caution and even repeated possession offences only get fines unless the quantity is high. allthough I personally do not class self inflicted drug addiction as a disease and there by classify addicts as victims i do agree that they need a lot of help and a little sympathy.
2. Set a level - quite low, maybe 1/4 oz (Over £400 lowest street value at the moment)above which the offence of Possession With Intent to Supply is AUTOMATICALLY proven and set a mandatory minimum sentence of 5 years on FIRST conviction. this would make the dealing of drugs difficult and the deterrent level high. second offence minimum 10 years. No questions.
3. If a drug dealer is sentenced then he will serve a minimum of 3/4s of his sentence IN JAIL!!
I have just read this and it hasgot to be the longest thread I have ever written so I will stop now other than to say.
I see the effects day in day out. I pick up the dead bodies. I tell the parents . I arrest the dealers. i give evidence in court.
I am the one that addicts turn to and say 'Do you know Mr ********* if it wasn't for you i would still be on drugs but you have made it so hard to get I eventually had to stop' Its not said often but its been said a few times.
Tell me i am wrong if you dare.
Emperor Ming (You wouldn't like me when I'm cross)
Hey up Empror! Crossing swords elsewhere! 
BUT The WildCat could be an ickle cutesy tabby! (but it could have something to do with my fave car in the garage being a Moggie! 
(LOVE old cars! Leather seats, walnut dashes, mahagonyyy - much more interesting to drive than my turbo charged modern "far too safe" job!)
Good post by the way. Agree 100% with everything you said there. Guess you have had same experiences as the medicos and the cops within the family! Work in medical/pharmaceuticals - so fully conversant with many drugs and properties. If people only knew the trauma caused by this.
If drugs were legalised, then as icamm "rightly" said - more would try them! BUT... MORE LIVES RUINED!
So-OH, icamm, OPIUM was legal when Sherlock Holmes was a detective! He visited an opium den in one story, and it took him a lot longer to say "Elementary, my dear Watson!" in that story!
In the story, Sherlock was investigating ORGANISED crime, headed by the King of the opium den! (The Victorian Kray Twins!) In fact, what went on in that story is echoed in the "Empror's" post on today's real life.
Opium etc were made illegal mainly because of the devasting effects on the society at the time. If something can affect your mind to that extent, then society has to outlaw it for the common good. Which is why the great majority of countries adopt such a strict stance on drugs.
Someone else pointed out here - if drugs were legal - you could end up being treated by a drug crazed dentist, operated on by a speedy surgeon who would mix up all your bits and bobs in accordance with his "trip"!
and goodness knows what might be running the country! (Though - Enough problems there anyway without drugs!) 
Cheers mein Liebchen!
The WildCat!
BUT The WildCat could be an ickle cutesy tabby!
(but it could have something to do with my fave car in the garage being a Moggie! (LOVE old cars! Leather seats, walnut dashes, mahagonyyy - much more interesting to drive than my turbo charged modern "far too safe" job!) Good post by the way. Agree 100% with everything you said there. Guess you have had same experiences as the medicos and the cops within the family! Work in medical/pharmaceuticals - so fully conversant with many drugs and properties. If people only knew the trauma caused by this.
If drugs were legalised, then as icamm "rightly" said - more would try them! BUT... MORE LIVES RUINED!
So-OH, icamm, OPIUM was legal when Sherlock Holmes was a detective! He visited an opium den in one story, and it took him a lot longer to say "Elementary, my dear Watson!" in that story!
In the story, Sherlock was investigating ORGANISED crime, headed by the King of the opium den! (The Victorian Kray Twins!) In fact, what went on in that story is echoed in the "Empror's" post on today's real life.
Opium etc were made illegal mainly because of the devasting effects on the society at the time. If something can affect your mind to that extent, then society has to outlaw it for the common good. Which is why the great majority of countries adopt such a strict stance on drugs.
Someone else pointed out here - if drugs were legal - you could end up being treated by a drug crazed dentist
, operated on by a speedy surgeon who would mix up all your bits and bobs in accordance with his "trip"! and goodness knows what might be running the country! (Though - Enough problems there anyway without drugs!) Cheers mein Liebchen!
The WildCat!
WildCat said:
WildCat said:
ATG said:
Brunstrom doesn't justify either his view on drugs or on speeding as "it's the law, it must be enforced". He seems to believe that speeding is a major cause of injury and fatalities, and that current policy on drugs doesn't work well and causes a lot of harm. I think the evidence is not compelling for the first idea, and overwhelmingly in favour of the second. No dichotomy here, he is wrong on one point and right on the other.
Ach! Do not know vot 'appened there!
Heard him on lunchtime news - saying that we should all pay towards it being on prescription for those who want to abuse their bodies! Why theshould we taxpayers have to do that? As said in last post, they would want more to feed the habit! Once they had the legal fix, they would do anything ANYTHING! for the next one, and the next..next...!
But "current policy is not working and causes a lot of harm!" Yes - it causes death! Wrecks lives! Wrecks the life of the user, his family and any victims of his drug induced state of mind!
"The evidence is overwhelmingly in favour!"
"Agree with Brunstersturmfurher on this one!" (Mojocvh)
Predominantly medico clan - married to doc. (Am Translator specialising in Medico/Pharmacueticals - work for large pharmaceutical co! -) One of the cousin medics specialises in nervous disorders/diseases - most of which brought on by addiction, and the A&E one could give some highly well-balanced arguments against - based on what they see each day!.
Could if I wanted launch into diatribe over this - give a step by step graphic and highly colourful description of what happens short and long term to your body and mind when taking hard and soft drugs! Except that could run into pages - and we ain't got the time! You would not like to hear it anyway!
Know of 14 year old in Germany who threw himself off top of large building in drug-induced trance! Seen junkies at first hand! Legalise this stuff? Is he mad?
Brainstorm claims he is "about saving lives" yet advocates legalising something which can cause more death and destruction on the roads as people would drive under the influence! If they take chances with drink .. so they will with this! More so!
It is really about him not being @ssed to do the job we are all paying for him to do! Suggest he gets off his butt and goes visiting the grieving families of dead and dying junkies, dead junkies' victims. Then go chase real villains who peddle this stuff.
Then he should decide who is more dangerous: the just over drifter, the hazard aware driver who gets nabbed by the invisible talivan, or the doped up junky and the dealers!
Do not give me any cr@p about drug barons peddling dogdy e-tablets, unrefined smack, speed, crack etc. Or dirty needles - all of which cause deaths! Heard it all before! But this policy would not stop them either!
Available on prescription? Yeah right! But only satisfies the one craving! You would be back to these big time crooks anyway as the addict sells his soul for that one more fix!
Yet another pea brained idea for a pea brained man!
Wildcat, do try and quote correctly.....
"Agree with Brunstersturmfurher on this one!" (Mojocvh)
Clumsy attempt to regain some credability, good idea about drugs (bet it wasn't his in the first place)but from the wrong person.
Well????????
MoJo.
>> Edited by Mojocvh on Friday 6th February 00:41
Mojocvh said:
[quote=WildCat]
[quote=WildCat]
Wildcat, do try and quote correctly.....
"Agree with Brunstersturmfurher on this one!" (Mojocvh)
Clumsy attempt to regain some credability, good idea about drugs (bet it wasn't his in the first place)but from the wrong person.
Well????????
MoJo.
>> Edited by Mojocvh on Friday 6th February 00:41
Lieber Mojo!
Ach! Pardon, Gnade und verflucht!
But not a good idea about legalising dangerous drugs - whoever's idea!
Seen the damage caused! Too much of it! Hear too much of it!
Legalise it - more people would try it out! Offer it on prescription, give it away! But it is never enough!
Look at alcoholics - George Best is a prime example! NEVER enough! Endless craving! You do your utmost to save their lives - they go out and do it all over again! Make it more freely available, remove the deterrents - you create an extremely dangerous world for society and for the economy! Hardly likely to achieve potential if on "a trip!" or climbing the ceiling for that "fix"
The Emperor Ming spelled the dangers out only too clearly in his post! 'Tis a darned good read!
Recalling something on Brundersturmfurher where it was said that, "Several studies have shown that people who commit motoring offences are more likely than others to be involved in other illegal activity."
Discuss with reference to Brundersturmfurher's call to sell heroin on the streets.
Discuss with reference to Brundersturmfurher's call to sell heroin on the streets.
puggit said:
Nice spread in the Sun today on Dick (sadly hidden away in the middle).
I think the headline is:
"Unfit to be a cop"
Unfit to be a cop? This plonker is unfit to call himselef a member of the human race. Sadam has more compassion and talent. Brunstrom must be the character on which Douglas Adams based the Vogons.
Can those who suggest Brunstrom has a good point in saying that heroin should be available at pharmacies and on street corners explain, having read the following list of effects of heroin, what great leap forward for mankind this move would achieve?
Heroin Effects: Short Term
Soon after injection (or inhalation), heroin crosses the blood-brain barrier. In the brain, heroin is converted to morphine and binds rapidly to opioid receptors. Abusers typically report feeling a surge of pleasurable sensation, a "rush." The intensity of the rush is a function of how much drug is taken and how rapidly the drug enters the brain and binds to the natural opioid receptors.
Heroin is particularly addictive because it enters the brain so rapidly. With heroin, the rush is usually accompanied by a warm flushing of the skin, dry mouth, and a heavy feeling in the extremities, which may be accompanied by nausea, vomiting, and severe itching.
Short-term effects of heroin
Rush
Depressed respiration
Clouded mental functioning
Nausea and vomiting
Suppression of pain
Spontaneous abortion
After the initial effects, abusers usually will be drowsy for several hours. Mental function is clouded by heroin's effect on the central nervous system. Cardiac functions slow. Breathing is also severely slowed, sometimes to the point of death. Heroin overdose is a particular risk on the street, where the amount and purity of the drug cannot be accurately known.
Heroin Effects: Long Term
One of the most detrimental long-term effects of heroin is addiction itself. Addiction is a chronic, relapsing problem, characterized by compulsive drug seeking and use, and by neurochemical and molecular changes in the brain. Heroin also produces profound degrees of tolerance and physical dependence, which are also powerful motivating factors for compulsive use and abuse. As with abusers of any addictive drug, heroin abusers gradually spend more and more time and energy obtaining and using the drug. Once they are addicted, the heroin abusers' primary purpose in life becomes seeking and using drugs. The drugs literally change their brains.
Long-term effects of heroin
Addiction
Abscesses
Collapsed veins
Bacterial infections
Infection of heart lining and valves
Arthritis and other rheumatologic problems
Infectious diseases, for example, HIV/AIDS and hepatitis B and C
Physical dependence develops with higher doses of the drug. With physical dependence, the body adapts to the presence of the drug and withdrawal symptoms occur if use is reduced abruptly. Withdrawal may occur within a few hours after the last time the drug is taken. Symptoms of withdrawal include restlessness, muscle and bone pain, insomnia, diarrhea, vomiting, cold swapes with goose bumps ("cold turkey"), and leg movements. Major withdrawal symptoms peak between 24 and 48 hours after the last dose of heroin and subside after about a week. However, some people have shown persistent withdrawal signs for many months. Heroin withdrawal is never fatal to otherwise healthy adults, but it can cause death to the fetus of a pregnant addict.
At some point during continuous heroin use, a person can become addicted to the drug. Sometimes addicted individuals will endure many of the withdrawal symptoms to reduce their tolerance for the drug so that they can again experience the rush.
Physical dependence and the emergence of withdrawal symptoms were once believed to be the key features of heroin addiction. We now know this may not be the case entirely, since craving and relapse can occur weeks and months after withdrawal symptoms are long gone...
Ends.
Well?
>> Edited by Tafia on Friday 6th February 19:28
Heroin Effects: Short Term
Soon after injection (or inhalation), heroin crosses the blood-brain barrier. In the brain, heroin is converted to morphine and binds rapidly to opioid receptors. Abusers typically report feeling a surge of pleasurable sensation, a "rush." The intensity of the rush is a function of how much drug is taken and how rapidly the drug enters the brain and binds to the natural opioid receptors.
Heroin is particularly addictive because it enters the brain so rapidly. With heroin, the rush is usually accompanied by a warm flushing of the skin, dry mouth, and a heavy feeling in the extremities, which may be accompanied by nausea, vomiting, and severe itching.
Short-term effects of heroin
Rush
Depressed respiration
Clouded mental functioning
Nausea and vomiting
Suppression of pain
Spontaneous abortion
After the initial effects, abusers usually will be drowsy for several hours. Mental function is clouded by heroin's effect on the central nervous system. Cardiac functions slow. Breathing is also severely slowed, sometimes to the point of death. Heroin overdose is a particular risk on the street, where the amount and purity of the drug cannot be accurately known.
Heroin Effects: Long Term
One of the most detrimental long-term effects of heroin is addiction itself. Addiction is a chronic, relapsing problem, characterized by compulsive drug seeking and use, and by neurochemical and molecular changes in the brain. Heroin also produces profound degrees of tolerance and physical dependence, which are also powerful motivating factors for compulsive use and abuse. As with abusers of any addictive drug, heroin abusers gradually spend more and more time and energy obtaining and using the drug. Once they are addicted, the heroin abusers' primary purpose in life becomes seeking and using drugs. The drugs literally change their brains.
Long-term effects of heroin
Addiction
Abscesses
Collapsed veins
Bacterial infections
Infection of heart lining and valves
Arthritis and other rheumatologic problems
Infectious diseases, for example, HIV/AIDS and hepatitis B and C
Physical dependence develops with higher doses of the drug. With physical dependence, the body adapts to the presence of the drug and withdrawal symptoms occur if use is reduced abruptly. Withdrawal may occur within a few hours after the last time the drug is taken. Symptoms of withdrawal include restlessness, muscle and bone pain, insomnia, diarrhea, vomiting, cold swapes with goose bumps ("cold turkey"), and leg movements. Major withdrawal symptoms peak between 24 and 48 hours after the last dose of heroin and subside after about a week. However, some people have shown persistent withdrawal signs for many months. Heroin withdrawal is never fatal to otherwise healthy adults, but it can cause death to the fetus of a pregnant addict.
At some point during continuous heroin use, a person can become addicted to the drug. Sometimes addicted individuals will endure many of the withdrawal symptoms to reduce their tolerance for the drug so that they can again experience the rush.
Physical dependence and the emergence of withdrawal symptoms were once believed to be the key features of heroin addiction. We now know this may not be the case entirely, since craving and relapse can occur weeks and months after withdrawal symptoms are long gone...
Ends.
Well?
>> Edited by Tafia on Friday 6th February 19:28
Tafia, with all due respect, you are missing the point. The effects of heroin are neither here nor there because the decriminalisation policy is not intended to increase the use of heroin. It is to reduce the crime associated with heroin (burglaries, mugging from the addicts and gun battles from the dealers).
Once you've decriminalised it, the hope is that it becomes easier to help drug addicts. At the moment their criminality keeps them at arms length from the help that the state might be able to offer them.
Nobody claims that taking heroin is a great idea. The object of the exercise is to reduce its use. But it is far from obvious that criminalising it has achieved this.
The psychological/neurological damage caused by long term heroin abuse is serious. But so are the effects of long term alcohol abuse. Smoking and drinking to excess over the long term lead to far more significant physical illness.
Once you've decriminalised it, the hope is that it becomes easier to help drug addicts. At the moment their criminality keeps them at arms length from the help that the state might be able to offer them.
Nobody claims that taking heroin is a great idea. The object of the exercise is to reduce its use. But it is far from obvious that criminalising it has achieved this.
The psychological/neurological damage caused by long term heroin abuse is serious. But so are the effects of long term alcohol abuse. Smoking and drinking to excess over the long term lead to far more significant physical illness.
I fail to see how decriminalising something as dangerous as heroin obviously can be could make any sense. I agree the current policy may not be working, but surely we need to find ways to enforce the law not just say - " oh well, we can't do anything about this so lets make it legal".
It is the total opposite of the speeding view where we are all being turned into criminals because we drift over the speed limit so more and more enforcement is being put into place.
It is the total opposite of the speeding view where we are all being turned into criminals because we drift over the speed limit so more and more enforcement is being put into place.
ATG said:
Tafia, with all due respect, you are missing the point. The effects of heroin are neither here nor there because the decriminalisation policy is not intended to increase the use of heroin. It is to reduce the crime associated with heroin (burglaries, mugging from the addicts and gun battles from the dealers).
Once you've decriminalised it, the hope is that it becomes easier to help drug addicts. At the moment their criminality keeps them at arms length from the help that the state might be able to offer them.
Nobody claims that taking heroin is a great idea. The object of the exercise is to reduce its use. But it is far from obvious that criminalising it has achieved this.
The psychological/neurological damage caused by long term heroin abuse is serious. But so are the effects of long term alcohol abuse. Smoking and drinking to excess over the long term lead to far more significant physical illness.
Last paragraph??/! Ask the medics! Cousin specialises in nervous system disorders - some of which brought on by serious Class A drug abuse - she can (and has on two other forums) give a really mind-blowing rant! Drinking in excess- yes- can lead to very, very serious problems. (George Best being prominent example).
Smoking - yes - cancers! Serious respiratory diseases etc. But tobacco does not blow your mind apart in the same way! Nor does moderate drink!
Overeating causes long term damage too! But again - may make you obese, murder your arteries, etc, etc, but it does not alter your mind!
Tafia's post is accurate description. Not missing the point at all - pointing out the dangers and the madness of the idea!
Heroin more or less paralyses the brain on first fix! Can even kill! You say "decriminalisation policy is not intended to increase usage" Which planet are you on? What have YOU been taking? People are twazaks in general. They would perceive it as "safe" because it is allowed! We would have more users and more addicts. Legalisation will not reduce its use at all!
The NHS budget is not a bottomless pit! I know - my company provides most of their medicines! We already have rations within the NHS - said in earlier post: that fix is the opportunity cost of another's chemo! OR MS treatment! OR Parkinson's; hip replacement! breast cancer scan; prostate scan; a child's treatment!......
Again who pays? Dick Ed of Brunstromia, (making another sweeping and highly innacurate statement - akin to his scam gems), said: "Heroin is not very, very dangerous. The question is: Why would we not want the GOVERNMENT selling it on street corners?" That means US the TAXPAYERS!!! Course he's trying to cover up his abysmal record on catching burglars! He has still not managed to catch the chap who nicked my cousin's big lawn mower (top speed of 15mph!
), but probably caught the bloke who overtook it on that stretch of the A5! Decriminalising it - reduces the crimes associated with it? So they get the prescription! What is there to stop them from flogging this to the highest bidder? We could see a trade in forged prescriptions from these barons! More crime! More expensive drugs! More violence! They will not be forced out of business that easily! They are callous, ruthless
Even if there were no dealing in prescriptions - once they've had their ration - they will want more and more! They will then go out in more dangerous state of mind and commit even more violent crimes to get the additional fix
You hope that decriminalisation will allow us to help the addicts? There are already rehab clinics. Holland, Germany, and Switzerland have them already! Some addicts use them - but it does not stop the overdoses! They happen within the clinics! The medics have to fight to save their lives! Does not wean them off the habit!
You say the objective is to reduce use? Not reduced use of alcohol, nor ciggies. Nor wiped out related crimes! People still smuggle the hooch and fags into the country to make a few bucks! That's criminal!
It really is naive to say that decriminalising this highly lethal stuff will reduce crime! Drug barons besides being evil, are unfortunately, a good deal more wily than Dick Ed! They would find some other racket anyway!
You say current policy is not working - too much crime! Solution: the cops stop prat@rsing around in talivans nicking anyone who tootles along at just over a posted, and get off their butts and go catch, the bad dealers, and throw away the key! Simple!
Slightly O/T but can anyone fill in the figures:
How many people are killed by speeding?
How many people exceed the speed limit?
How many people are killed by Drug abuse?
How many people use hard drugs?
I would wager that there are many more speeders than Drug users.
I would also wager that there are many more deaths from drug abuse than speeding (or even motoring in general)
The man has a serious priority misunderstanding.
How many people are killed by speeding?
How many people exceed the speed limit?
How many people are killed by Drug abuse?
How many people use hard drugs?
I would wager that there are many more speeders than Drug users.
I would also wager that there are many more deaths from drug abuse than speeding (or even motoring in general)
The man has a serious priority misunderstanding.
cazzo said:
You say current policy is not working - too much crime! Solution: the cops stop prat@rsing around in talivans nicking anyone who tootles along at just over a posted, and get off their butts and go catch, the bad dealers, and throw away the key! Simple!
Oh no, not allowed my friend. "Tony and the third ways" (crap band) need to score now and again. How else can they concentrate on the drivel they spout unless they have just done a couple of lines of charlie? This is a serious problem, these scumbags are in government and in league with the criminals. We need religion to cure this, everybody say Jesus
Brunstrom doesn't justify either his view on drugs or on speeding as "it's the law, it must be enforced". He seems to believe that speeding is a major cause of injury and fatalities, and that current policy on drugs doesn't work well and causes a lot of harm. I think the evidence is not compelling for the first idea, and overwhelmingly in favour of the second. No dichotomy here, he is wrong on one point and right on the other. THANK YOU ICAMM and others who not cluelessly unrealistic concerning this issue such as the officer quoted earlier who still clings to the idea the drug war is worthwhile. You officers would unfortunately have to chase REAL criminals (much more dangerous and more rewarding!You'd be heroes again!)if drugs were made legal. In the US $300 Billion has been wasted yet drug use has increased! Check the charts in this presentation! The day after drugs were made LEGAL all the dealers would be out of business because they'd cost the same as a pack of smokes and you could buy all you'd need working at MacDonalds! e.g. $2/gram instead of $100 gram for cocaine or heroine as it was in 1917 when it was legal. WAKE UP!
>> Edited by Radracer on Saturday 7th February 09:29
>> Edited by Radracer on Saturday 7th February 09:29
Radracer - be realistic!
Prices will not come down if you legalised these drugs! Not noticed price of fags reducing at all, nor booze! Think of the TAXATION these drugs would incur - because legal or otherwise, their usage would still be frowned upon by society, and one way to deter useage would be to keep prices HIGH! So the addict would still resort to crimes to get their fixes. The dealers - as stated previously - would find another equally lucrative source of income. They could even undercut the state price, and then lure or threaten the punters into some kind of loyalty to their goods! If we went the "prescription" route - no doubt there would be racketeering in this! Get real!
And addicts climbing the ceiling for that fix are dangerous!
Few years ago - had nasty accident! Was on strong painkillers! Got over -reliant (even though I knew exactly what they were made up of! I did the research before the incident!) Getting off them was more painful than the injuries, and I was not a nice person to know!
Definitely a very wild cat!
Prices will not come down if you legalised these drugs! Not noticed price of fags reducing at all, nor booze! Think of the TAXATION these drugs would incur - because legal or otherwise, their usage would still be frowned upon by society, and one way to deter useage would be to keep prices HIGH! So the addict would still resort to crimes to get their fixes. The dealers - as stated previously - would find another equally lucrative source of income. They could even undercut the state price, and then lure or threaten the punters into some kind of loyalty to their goods! If we went the "prescription" route - no doubt there would be racketeering in this! Get real!
And addicts climbing the ceiling for that fix are
dangerous! Few years ago - had nasty accident! Was on strong painkillers! Got over -reliant (even though I knew exactly what they were made up of! I did the
research before the incident!) Getting off them was more painful than the injuries, and I was not a nice person to know! Definitely a very wild cat!Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff