Not displaying tax disc on a taxed car question.

[robgee1964]

CardShark said:

Unfortunately 'failure to display' is the offence in question and, I would think, stand up in court should it go further, I say 'unfortunately' because there have been a few interesting points made that do make it all sound a bit silly and possibly a little out moded.
...
Perhaps the DVLA could, on payment of a disc on the net, generate an authorisation number or such like which could then be displayed on the vehicle until the disc turns up?

Any thoughts?

Sounds like a good idea, although I suppose they might be deemed too easy to forge. Still coppers or traffic wardens could check the number, if they saw the car parked up.

What makes me laugh is that you can still (in theory) get done for failing to display a disk on a tax exempt vehicle (eg pre 1973), for those you still need a disk, even though its free! Back in the old days I guess the disk would prove at a glance that you had insurance and MOT - but now its all computerised - WTFP?

[flemke]

robgee1964 said:

What makes me laugh is that you can still (in theory) get done for failing to display a disk on a tax exempt vehicle (eg pre 1973), for those you still need a disk, even though its free! Back in the old days I guess the disk would prove at a glance that you had insurance and MOT - but now its all computerised - WTFP?

I suppose that the BIB cannot be expected to know whether a specific car qualifies for the exemption.

[Robert060379]

One of the site I work we clamp vehicles who park in disables bays and don't display a blue badge. I also check the Tax disk to see if the blue badge is the one for the car in question or if there is no blue badge for one reason or another but the Tax disk state "Disabled Driver £0.00".

[Black_Rat]

I haven't read every single post, so forgive me if this has been covered.

The vehicle was Sorn'd for 3 months, so when you applied for the new disc, it would not go on the dvla system that the police can see straight away.
When it was checked by the officer, there is a good chance it still said "notified off road until xxx", or "VEL not held", this doesn't mean it's not taxed, just that it's not on the Police accessed system.
There was no disc in the window, hence the ticket.

You may think it's petty, but without knowing the other side of the situation, it could just be the officer doing their job on the info they had.

You can contest the ticket, can you not access the e-mails online?? My e-mail provider keeps copies on the webmail interface, even if I download to my PC or iPod (worth a try)

as has been said though, the offence is complete, so it may not help anyway.

Just my 2p worth, from my experiences

[TIPPER]

flemke said:

CardShark said:

Unfortunately 'failure to display' is the offence in question and, I would think, stand up in court should it go further, I say 'unfortunately' because there have been a few interesting points made that do make it all sound a bit silly and possibly a little out moded.

To add another, I've recently re-insured my cars and did it all over the 'phone. After passing over my credit card details and the payment was authorised a policy number was generated, with that I was told that I was now legally covered to drive the vehicles and that my certificate etc would be in the post - so here we have a situation where I can legally drive the cars but had no 'proof' in the same sense as this tax disc scenario except for the policy number that I'd scribbled down on a piece of paper. Perhaps the DVLA could, on payment of a disc on the net, generate an authorisation number or such like which could then be displayed on the vehicle until the disc turns up?

Any thoughts?

When you re-tax via the DVLA website, you get sent a confirming e-mail. At the very least, you should be able to leave that e-mail on your dashboard in order to "display" that you have paid the tax.

Its what I'll be doing in future.

[rs1952]

robgee1964 said:

Back in the old days I guess the disk would prove at a glance that you had insurance and MOT - but now its all computerised - WTFP?

Absolutely not.

All a tax disc would show in the "old days" was that an MOT and certificate of insurance had been shown when the vehicle was taxed. The MOT might run out the day after, but as long as it was valid on the day then the car could get a tax disc. The old-style MOT could have been a fogery for all the Post Office Clerk would know (if it was a good one!), or from a pad that had been nicked (if the PO clerk wasn't paying attention!)

In the "old days" we had insurance certificates saying "Any vehicle owned by the insured." All you had to do if you, let us say, wanted to borrow a mate's untaxed car for a couple of weeks, was to fill in the change of ownership details on the V5 and you could get tax on a car that was effectively uninsured. You simply crossed out the change of ownership section later and if anybody asked: "the sale fell through."

The new computerised database has done away with all that. Proof that a car is insured, has a valid MOT and VED is the entry on the database. As I said earlier in this thread, there has never been a requirement to display proof of MOT or insurance on the windscreen, only VED, and that requirement should theoretically no longer apply.

This arcane piece of legislation is in dire need of being repealed.

[Mondeohdear]

sy534534 said:

Thanks MRMR96, but the police didn't say that, the civvy behind the desk did and i suspect it was just to get rid of the OP. The offence has been comitted, why are people always trying to weasle out of these type of things? ( Awaits inevitable flaming )

Happy to oblige

So now the civilians at police stations just say anything to "get rid of" people. That's alright then, in simialr circumstances I will just insist on seeing a real policeman! Marvellous value for money from civvy desk plebs

[Gallen]

herewego said:

If it wasn't an offence not to display the disc then no-one would bother to display it and plod patrolling the streets would have to check with DVLA every single vehicle he passed. Also MOPs wouldn't be able to call it in and I suspect that's how most people without tax are caught.

This is called ANPR and a computer does it.

If Plod take an interest in ANY vehicle, they won't just look in the window.

It's an outdated system and needs resolving.

[tzfan]

For example, if a car has been SORN'ed for, say, 10 months with an expired MOT and the owner insured it with all insurance docs provided and then booked an MOT for the following day, he would obviously have to drive the vehicle to the test location without an MOT or a valid tax disc.

How would he stand if pulled by Plod as ANPR would likely show no tax/MOT/insurance?

The expression 'chicken and egg' comes to mind, and please don't give me the one about 'an understanding officer' as stated before it's all black or white, courtesy of computers.

I will be in this situation later this year when I put my Shogun back on the road, all (sensible) comments welcome.

Thanks.

[SS2.]

tzfan said:

For example, if a car has been SORN'ed for, say, 10 months with an expired MOT and the owner insured it with all insurance docs provided and then booked an MOT for the following day, he would obviously have to drive the vehicle to the test location without an MOT or a valid tax disc.

How would he stand if pulled by Plod as ANPR would likely show no tax/MOT/insurance?

Whilst the vehicle would need to be insured, it would be exempt from having an MOT or having / displaying a valid tax disc if it was being driven to (or from) a pre-arranged MOT test.

Edited by SS2. on Tuesday 25th August 19:34

[tzfan]

SS2. said:

tzfan said:

For example, if a car has been SORN'ed for, say, 10 months with an expired MOT and the owner insured it with all insurance docs provided and then booked an MOT for the following day, he would obviously have to drive the vehicle to the test location without an MOT or a valid tax disc.

How would he stand if pulled by Plod as ANPR would likely show no tax/MOT/insurance?

Whilst the vehicle would need to be insured, it would be exempt from having an MOT or having / displaying a valid tax disc if it was being driven to (or from) a pre-arranged MOT test.

Edited by SS2. on Tuesday 25th August 19:34

Thanks for your answer.

[master L]

off topic
i drive cars from work they have insurance, m.o.t, and TAX but tax isnt displayed in the car, (we give this back to the customer)
if the police caught me would it just be a £60 fine or would i have to go to court?

[Black_Rat]

master L said:

off topic
i drive cars from work they have insurance, m.o.t, and TAX but tax isnt displayed in the car, (we give this back to the customer)
if the police caught me would it just be a £60 fine or would i have to go to court?

why do you give them back? Are the vehicles still taxed? Are you in the motor trade? Have the vehicles been sold to you?

[master L]

Black_Rat said:

master L said:

off topic
i drive cars from work they have insurance, m.o.t, and TAX but tax isnt displayed in the car, (we give this back to the customer)
if the police caught me would it just be a £60 fine or would i have to go to court?

why do you give them back? Are the vehicles still taxed? Are you in the motor trade? Have the vehicles been sold to you?

we give the tax disc back because we brought the car off them, i am in the motor trade, but we are only aloud to drive cars with a tax disc, but if we get nice cars in, (and we give the tax disc to the customer) i get tempted and take the car out. i know if you dont have tax you have to show trade plates, but we dont have trade plates. (because we are only spose to take cars out with a tax disc)
so if i get pulled by the cops they can see no tax disc displayed but if they do a check it will show the car has tax,
so what would they do? fine? court? or what.

[Gallen]

master L said:

Black_Rat said:

master L said:

off topic
i drive cars from work they have insurance, m.o.t, and TAX but tax isnt displayed in the car, (we give this back to the customer)
if the police caught me would it just be a £60 fine or would i have to go to court?

why do you give them back? Are the vehicles still taxed? Are you in the motor trade? Have the vehicles been sold to you?

we give the tax disc back because we brought the car off them, i am in the motor trade, but we are only aloud to drive cars with a tax disc, but if we get nice cars in, (and we give the tax disc to the customer) i get tempted and take the car out. i know if you dont have tax you have to show trade plates, but we dont have trade plates. (because we are only spose to take cars out with a tax disc)
so if i get pulled by the cops they can see no tax disc displayed but if they do a check it will show the car has tax,
so what would they do? fine? court? or what.

10 guesses - I think you've answered your own question:

master L said:

because we are only spose to take cars out with a tax disc

....even though the tax will not be refunded until the 1st of the next calender month so effectively, the tax for the remainder of the month in whcih you are using it without displaying has arguably been paid for.



Why the hell do they only refund from the 1st of the month? I wonder...........

Edited by Gallen on Wednesday 26th August 15:59

[Black_Rat]

master L said:

Black_Rat said:

master L said:

off topic
i drive cars from work they have insurance, m.o.t, and TAX but tax isnt displayed in the car, (we give this back to the customer)
if the police caught me would it just be a £60 fine or would i have to go to court?

why do you give them back? Are the vehicles still taxed? Are you in the motor trade? Have the vehicles been sold to you?

we give the tax disc back because we brought the car off them, i am in the motor trade, but we are only aloud to drive cars with a tax disc, but if we get nice cars in, (and we give the tax disc to the customer) i get tempted and take the car out. i know if you dont have tax you have to show trade plates, but we dont have trade plates. (because we are only spose to take cars out with a tax disc)
so if i get pulled by the cops they can see no tax disc displayed but if they do a check it will show the car has tax,
so what would they do? fine? court? or what.

If you're not supposed to drive them, then surely thats TWOC (Taken Without Consent) and you could be arrested. If you are in the motor trade, then trade plates would need to be used if there is no tax. Would your insurance cover you, for cars you aren't supposed to drive?

[TIPPER]

Finally got this sorted.
Went into the central ticket office again today (third visit!) and showed the credit card statement and twax tiscs from my other vehicles and asked what the probability was that I would be taxing more than three vehicles as a private individual. Civvy on the desk rings 'the office' and has a chat metnioning what I have and that I've been in a couple of times before. Message comes back to send in copies of everything and a covering letter and they'll drop it. I was asked by the civvy if I'd tried ringing (I commented about the impossib ility of speaking to someone who has the ability to amke a decision). Yes, I'd tried ringing the number which is open forr two hours a day - its either engaged or on the only occasion I've got through you get a message with two options both of which tell you to write in.
Its almopst like Livingstons tax on driving in London - I fell foul of it shortly after it was introduced not realising I'd driven into the 'prohibited' zone (I live in Devon). I drove straight out again and thought that would be that - No! A fine for less than five minutes.
I can almost understand it from Livingstone - in Red Ken's Utopia we'd all be working in a Soviet style system and do as we're told (of course we know how well that worked!) but FFS, its now got to the situation in this country where I feel easy targets are paying through the nose for simple errors. Not crimes or really offences - errors!! Is that what the police for is for - the enforcement of correct personal administration?
I've now probably got this all over again as I went out in the Elise today - got home and realised I hadn't put the tax disc back in after taking it out to show plod yesterday - I'll probably get another fine from the State Securitty Service for Personal Administration.
Sorry to be such a cynic as I know a few BIB and also understand the difficulties of your job, but I'm just a fairly typical memeber of the public and we're all starting to get a bit pissed.

[SmoothCriminal]

You could'ave saved all this hassle if you just taxed it at the post office in the first place.

[CardShark]

SmoothCriminal said:

You could'ave saved all this hassle if you just taxed it at the post office in the first place.

Is someone asking for a flaming?

[CardShark]

...and good on you OP for taking on the system, I just hope that they're true to their word!