car insurance recovering my hire costs in court .

car insurance recovering my hire costs in court .

Author
Discussion

edo

16,699 posts

264 months

Friday 19th February 2010
quotequote all
As my (solicitor) father taught me, don't be afraid to cross bits out and agree to the parts you are happy with/make notes/comments on the letter/form they are asking you to sign.

Keep a copy of course.

Paul Drawmer

4,864 posts

266 months

Friday 19th February 2010
quotequote all
Piglet said:
They don't need your consent to pass it to a solicitor, you are obligated under your policy to assist them and there are rights of subrogation within the policy that give them the ability to act in your shoes.
What he says.

Piglet

6,250 posts

254 months

Friday 19th February 2010
quotequote all
Paul Drawmer said:
Piglet said:
They don't need your consent to pass it to a solicitor, you are obligated under your policy to assist them and there are rights of subrogation within the policy that give them the ability to act in your shoes.
What he she says.

biggrin

Paul Drawmer

4,864 posts

266 months

Friday 19th February 2010
quotequote all
Bugger - making an Ass out of myself

jessica

Original Poster:

6,321 posts

251 months

Friday 19th February 2010
quotequote all
Paul Drawmer said:
Piglet said:
They don't need your consent to pass it to a solicitor, you are obligated under your policy to assist them and there are rights of subrogation within the policy that give them the ability to act in your shoes.
What he says.
No I have a letter of authority that the insurance has written to asking for my permission to send the file to solicitors. Which appears to have already been done, without my authority Also i have spoken to the sol and they said that the insurance had already tried to get the money back from the third party and so now they are hoping i will agree to do it for them. Not a chance, unless they are paying me at least £50 an hour for my time and the stress this has caused.

Piglet

6,250 posts

254 months

Friday 19th February 2010
quotequote all
They may have written to ask you but they don't have to. Rights of subrogation give them the ability to bring a claim in your name. They need your involvement to substantiate the validity of the hire claim which is why they want you on board.

Under the terms of your policy you will be obligated to assist them anyway. The reality is that no solicitor is going to force you to attend in a case such as this because you won't be useful to the case.

What I've outline earlier are some ways of you demonstrating to them that the credit hire claim isn't valid so that you can persuade them to drop it rather than pursue it to Court without you having to refuse to assist them.


paoloh

8,617 posts

203 months

Friday 19th February 2010
quotequote all
jessica said:
Paul Drawmer said:
Piglet said:
They don't need your consent to pass it to a solicitor, you are obligated under your policy to assist them and there are rights of subrogation within the policy that give them the ability to act in your shoes.
What he says.
No I have a letter of authority that the insurance has written to asking for my permission to send the file to solicitors. Which appears to have already been done, without my authority Also i have spoken to the sol and they said that the insurance had already tried to get the money back from the third party and so now they are hoping i will agree to do it for them. Not a chance, unless they are paying me at least £50 an hour for my time and the stress this has caused.
Sorry if this harsh but FFS.

What about all the time and stress they saved you by lending you a like for like car?

telecat

8,528 posts

240 months

Friday 19th February 2010
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You are OK to go ahead with this. We had this when our Mazda was damaged. The other Insurance basically hope you will fold leaving your insurance/accident management company with the bill. Ours only folded three days before the court case.

frosted

3,549 posts

176 months

Friday 19th February 2010
quotequote all
Hmmm..... 7 weeks car hire for a small accident , someone is taking the piss .If you used one of those accident management companies I have no pity for you

jessica

Original Poster:

6,321 posts

251 months

Friday 19th February 2010
quotequote all
paoloh said:
jessica said:
Paul Drawmer said:
Piglet said:
They don't need your consent to pass it to a solicitor, you are obligated under your policy to assist them and there are rights of subrogation within the policy that give them the ability to act in your shoes.
What he says.
No I have a letter of authority that the insurance has written to asking for my permission to send the file to solicitors. Which appears to have already been done, without my authority Also i have spoken to the sol and they said that the insurance had already tried to get the money back from the third party and so now they are hoping i will agree to do it for them. Not a chance, unless they are paying me at least £50 an hour for my time and the stress this has caused.
Sorry if this harsh but FFS.

What about all the time and stress they saved you by lending you a like for like car?
I am currently in the middle of a court case for an education for my disabled son and so yes i dont need anymore stress, I was not made aware that the car i was loaned was a hire agreement merely a like for like car insurance car provided until my car was fixed.
I will know better next time.

jessica

Original Poster:

6,321 posts

251 months

Friday 19th February 2010
quotequote all
frosted said:
Hmmm..... 7 weeks car hire for a small accident , someone is taking the piss .If you used one of those accident management companies I have no pity for you
I didnt choose to use an accident management company. My insurance company got them involved i guess when the other side refused to pay.
7 weeks i think is correct but i a not sure.
i had a grande renault espace at the time and the whole of the front bumper was trashed. car was undrivable. part was on back order for ages. then loss adjuster noticed the damaged side door and we had to wait for the whole of the side of the car to be resprayed as it was all scratched.
My vehicle was stationary and unoccupied at the time. It was hit by a school minibus.

screem

763 posts

200 months

Friday 19th February 2010
quotequote all
1.Sign it
2.Dont worry about it
3.Ill bet you a tenner you wont be needed in court Ill donate a tenner to a charity of your choice if you have to attend court.

wink

JustinP1

13,330 posts

229 months

Friday 19th February 2010
quotequote all
Whoa....

Slow down.

This is not as bad as you think. Reading underneath the words here I can see what has happened.

Firstly, legally, when you have car insurance they agree to represent you in negligence claims and chase money up that you would be owed from other parties. In that same agreement you also agree to help them do that on your behalf. Otherwise legally, they can't claim on your behalf.

They have agreed to give you a hire car, fix your car etc on the basis that you will assist them in recovering this money from the person who hit your car (or their insurers).

What it looks like is that they still don't have this money.

What it seems that has happened is that the other insurers have got the bill and read:

Fixing the car £1000
Car hire for 7 weeks for a 7 seater car - £800 a week: £5400

Receiving that, the other insurers have said that £5000 (or thereabouts) for car hire over a relatively small claim is insane - and they are not going to pay it.

It seems that you have legitimate reasons to have that hire car - that is fine - but to get the other insurer to pay up, they need your permission to not only explain those reasons in full, but to offer a 'statement of truth' that could be used in court on your behalf.

Your insurer has to show that they are willing to go to court to get the other insurer to pay. They just need to have your co-operation. There will be little need for you to some to court if you give a full witness statement which they will write and run by you before signing on your behalf.

That is all common and standard practice in litigation. What is also common practice is for the defendant to call the claimant's bluff and for the claimant to have to show their whole hand - in this case a statement they will use in court - for them to pay up.

So - put a line through the parts about you being liable for something yourself - and agree to be co-operative in you will probably not hear anything further and the other company will pay up.


jessica

Original Poster:

6,321 posts

251 months

Friday 19th February 2010
quotequote all
JustinP1 said:
Whoa....

Slow down.

This is not as bad as you think. Reading underneath the words here I can see what has happened.

Firstly, legally, when you have car insurance they agree to represent you in negligence claims and chase money up that you would be owed from other parties. In that same agreement you also agree to help them do that on your behalf. Otherwise legally, they can't claim on your behalf.

They have agreed to give you a hire car, fix your car etc on the basis that you will assist them in recovering this money from the person who hit your car (or their insurers).

What it looks like is that they still don't have this money.

What it seems that has happened is that the other insurers have got the bill and read:

Fixing the car £1000
Car hire for 7 weeks for a 7 seater car - £800 a week: £5400

Receiving that, the other insurers have said that £5000 (or thereabouts) for car hire over a relatively small claim is insane - and they are not going to pay it.

It seems that you have legitimate reasons to have that hire car - that is fine - but to get the other insurer to pay up, they need your permission to not only explain those reasons in full, but to offer a 'statement of truth' that could be used in court on your behalf.

Your insurer has to show that they are willing to go to court to get the other insurer to pay. They just need to have your co-operation. There will be little need for you to some to court if you give a full witness statement which they will write and run by you before signing on your behalf.

That is all common and standard practice in litigation. What is also common practice is for the defendant to call the claimant's bluff and for the claimant to have to show their whole hand - in this case a statement they will use in court - for them to pay up.

So - put a line through the parts about you being liable for something yourself - and agree to be co-operative in you will probably not hear anything further and the other company will pay up.
thanks for that. it all makes some sense. I am waiting to hear from my insurance company now. I have spoken to the solicitor and they have agreed to remove most of the clauses.
the amount in dispute is a little over 1.5k.

They want to go to the small claims court to do this. But they want me to cross a box to say if we lose i will be liable for the costs. I am asking for this clause to be removed if i decide i have to do this.

Edited by jessica on Friday 19th February 19:21

telecat

8,528 posts

240 months

Friday 19th February 2010
quotequote all
frosted said:
Hmmm..... 7 weeks car hire for a small accident , someone is taking the piss .If you used one of those accident management companies I have no pity for you
I seriously doubt it;'s the OP's fault. In our case the car wasn't picked up for several days after the notification to them about the accident and then they approved a repair that was visible to the naked eye! They basically dragged their feet and whinged about the cost.

peterguk M500

2,615 posts

216 months

Saturday 20th February 2010
quotequote all
frosted said:
Hmmm..... 7 weeks car hire for a small accident , someone is taking the piss .
OP stated parts on back order. So blame the French.

Agrilla

834 posts

182 months

Saturday 20th February 2010
quotequote all
Must say, I echo Paoloh's sentiments.

Bottom line is that OP accepted a service - did they think that it was going to be for free, out of the goodness of their hearts?

OP (or ex-husband presumably under op's instruction) would have signed something which is likely to have specifcally said:

"I have had credit hire and the cover provided by my own policy explained to me. I understand that if I choose to hire on credit I am personally responsible for paying for the hire costs which I would not have incurred had I used a courtesy vehicle available to me from my own motor insurer or legal expenses insurer. I have read and understood the above and I believe that the answers I have given are true"

or if it was slightly more recent

"I understand that if I choose to hire on credit I am personally liable for paying for the hire costs which I would not have incurred had I been offered and accepted a suitable courtesy vehicle from my own motor insurer or legal expenses insurer...I have read and understood the above and I believe that the answers I have given are true"

I'm sure that the OP's life is very stressful - we all have different crap to deal with - it's not the hire company's fault, but surely if you're going to be taking thousands of pounds worth of any item or service you would spend five minutes reading through the pages that you sign to make sure that when you sign to say you understand, that you actually do.

Whatever happened to personal responsibility? rolleyes

Still, the likelihood depending on which hire company it was, will choose not to pursue directly, but times are tight for everyone, so if they want their money back, what option do they have?


skwdenyer

16,181 posts

239 months

Sunday 21st February 2010
quotequote all
Agrilla said:
Must say, I echo Paoloh's sentiments.

Bottom line is that OP accepted a service - did they think that it was going to be for free, out of the goodness of their hearts?
With respect, the OP has stated their entirely reasonable assumption that this was part of the insurance cover which they paid premiums for to their insurer. It wasn't "free", it was "included".

Agrilla said:
OP (or ex-husband presumably under op's instruction) would have signed something which is likely to have specifcally said:

"I have had credit hire and the cover provided by my own policy explained to me. I understand that if I choose to hire on credit I am personally responsible for paying for the hire costs which I would not have incurred had I used a courtesy vehicle available to me from my own motor insurer or legal expenses insurer. I have read and understood the above and I believe that the answers I have given are true"

or if it was slightly more recent

"I understand that if I choose to hire on credit I am personally liable for paying for the hire costs which I would not have incurred had I been offered and accepted a suitable courtesy vehicle from my own motor insurer or legal expenses insurer...I have read and understood the above and I believe that the answers I have given are true"
Perhaps, but often not. The last time I had a vehicle in such circumstances I was not asked to sign anything like that.

Agrilla said:
I'm sure that the OP's life is very stressful - we all have different crap to deal with - it's not the hire company's fault, but surely if you're going to be taking thousands of pounds worth of any item or service you would spend five minutes reading through the pages that you sign to make sure that when you sign to say you understand, that you actually do.
As above. The OP's insurer organised the hire car as a part of the insurance claim, a provision which the OP fully expected since it was an advertised part of the policy that they were paying premiums for.

Agrilla said:
Whatever happened to personal responsibility? rolleyes
The OP's personal responsibility was discharged by taking out suitably inclusive car insurance. If the insurer wants to recover their loss from a third party that is a different matter.

Agrilla said:
Still, the likelihood depending on which hire company it was, will choose not to pursue directly, but times are tight for everyone, so if they want their money back, what option do they have?
Indeed. Signing things you don't want to sign on the assumption (= mother of all fk ups) that it won't be followed-up is pure folly.

jessica

Original Poster:

6,321 posts

251 months

Sunday 21st February 2010
quotequote all
Agrilla said:
Must say, I echo Paoloh's sentiments.

Bottom line is that OP accepted a service - did they think that it was going to be for free, out of the goodness of their hearts?

OP (or ex-husband presumably under op's instruction) would have signed something which is likely to have specifcally said:

"I have had credit hire and the cover provided by my own policy explained to me. I understand that if I choose to hire on credit I am personally responsible for paying for the hire costs which I would not have incurred had I used a courtesy vehicle available to me from my own motor insurer or legal expenses insurer. I have read and understood the above and I believe that the answers I have given are true"

or if it was slightly more recent

"I understand that if I choose to hire on credit I am personally liable for paying for the hire costs which I would not have incurred had I been offered and accepted a suitable courtesy vehicle from my own motor insurer or legal expenses insurer...I have read and understood the above and I believe that the answers I have given are true"

I'm sure that the OP's life is very stressful - we all have different crap to deal with - it's not the hire company's fault, but surely if you're going to be taking thousands of pounds worth of any item or service you would spend five minutes reading through the pages that you sign to make sure that when you sign to say you understand, that you actually do.

Whatever happened to personal responsibility? rolleyes

Still, the likelihood depending on which hire company it was, will choose not to pursue directly, but times are tight for everyone, so if they want their money back, what option do they have?
I always read things before i sign them, it was my recollection that the document i signed was to agree i had received the vehicle and check the scratches and dents on it before and after. Not once was it suggested that the car was a hire agreement . I am waiting for the insurance to clarify this by sending me a copy of the document.

Agrilla

834 posts

182 months

Sunday 21st February 2010
quotequote all
To be fair, 5 years ago the credit hire industry was almost an entirely different animal to the industry now.

There were so many unenforceable credit hire agreements around, so many companies not taking care of the paperwork and deliberately not giving customers enough information to make an informed choice. Consistently back then they would overhire/encourage customers into vehicle's which exceeded their needs & blag as much money at the end as they could.

The big credit hire companies which are around today (with one or two notable exceptions) have worked very hard at ridding themselves of their terrible reputations, and now actually work with insurers very very closely - a win/win situation.

I'm sure OP that it is pretty stressful having this company try to pin these terms on you - and certainly you are right to ensure that you are provided with a copy of the credit agreement - the last thing you want to do is make a previously unenforceable agreement become enforceable by signing something now!

Bottom line is that whilst I can sympathise to a certain degree with the hire company - afterall they had provided a vehicle for nearly two months - if they don't have their house in order and can't provide the paperwork, or if that paperwork is in accurate, then that's no way to run a business and it's a bit of tough titty on them if they lose out.

On the other hand, if they do supply the documentation, then moral arguments aside, there will be little choice but to attend Court to give evidence & explain your need for a vehicle (for that long), especially if they are serious (as some are) about pursuing you for the balance.