car insurance recovering my hire costs in court .

car insurance recovering my hire costs in court .

Author
Discussion

jessica

Original Poster:

6,321 posts

251 months

Thursday 18th February 2010
quotequote all
Ok long story.
july 2005 minibus rips my bumber off and scratches the entire side of my renault espace. also pushes back door in.
insurance company sorts this out.
they offered me a like for like vehicle as in my policy it is stated.
I have hire car MPV for 7 weeks. it was summer holidays and five kids and off to france.
other side disputed the hire costs and only paid for some of it.
now five years on my insurance company are taking other side to small claims court.
However i have just had a letter from a solicitor asking me to sign a document to give them permission to go to court on my behalf and the insurance companies behalf.
it has five clauses.
i confirm i have not had a settlement already.
i confirm that i will co operate fully
i derstand that if i agree then later refuse to attend i will be liable for all court costs and credit hire charges.
i confirm information provided at the time of the accident are true.
i confirm that by signing this document i give sol to sign a statement of truth on my behalf
i understand it is a criminal offence to provide a false statement and if i did then i could go to prison.

surely it is the company that provided the hire car to me that are liable. surely they should be fighting this in court. Why should i sign away all my rights so that i may be liable for hire cost when paid for this in my insurance in the first place.
do i sign, do i write and complain.

The letter that came with this authority also states that if i dont comply to this request i will be laible for the entire hire costs. How do pray i paid for car insurance with a like for like vehicle. surely this issue is between the hire care company and the third party. not me. I have been told the issue is that as part of my car policy i was entitled to a group A hire car. but at the discretion of the company i was offered like for like another MPV as i had five children and they dont fit into a normal car. no they want me to take the buck for their actions.
any legal peeps of help if you have had to do this would be much appreciated
i need help
any suggestions.
off to source some legal help tomorrow.

davefowler1987

183 posts

218 months

Thursday 18th February 2010
quotequote all
jessica said:
pushes back door in.
hehe

Piglet

6,250 posts

254 months

Thursday 18th February 2010
quotequote all
Nah it's a trick of the light.

It's the concept of credit hire. They can only reclaim it if you really were liable for the loss at the outset so you have to sign an agreement that says that you understood that you are liable if the otherside don't pay up.

The reality is that they will never pursue you for it as the rules don't work like that. I'd suggest that they may not have got you to sign the correct paperwork at the start.

Don't worry about signing it, they won't come after you.

No time to type more, will be back in a few hours.

Simpo Two

85,151 posts

264 months

Thursday 18th February 2010
quotequote all
jessica said:
it has five clauses.
i confirm i have not had a settlement already.
i confirm that i will co operate fully
i derstand that if i agree then later refuse to attend i will be liable for all court costs and credit hire charges.
i confirm information provided at the time of the accident are true.
i confirm that by signing this document i give sol to sign a statement of truth on my behalf
i understand it is a criminal offence to provide a false statement and if i did then i could go to prison.
That's six clauses.

The only one that sounds odd to me is (3): 'i derstand that if i agree then later refuse to attend i will be liable for all court costs and credit hire charges.'

Who is taking the other party to court, you or the insurance company?

AndrewW-G

11,968 posts

216 months

Thursday 18th February 2010
quotequote all
Phone them and ask them to explain, or for an independant opinion, see if your household insurance has legal cover and speak to one of their bods.

My uneducated guess, is that you've been sent a standard letter

paoloh

8,617 posts

203 months

Thursday 18th February 2010
quotequote all
Simpo Two said:
jessica said:
it has five clauses.
i confirm i have not had a settlement already.
i confirm that i will co operate fully
i derstand that if i agree then later refuse to attend i will be liable for all court costs and credit hire charges.
i confirm information provided at the time of the accident are true.
i confirm that by signing this document i give sol to sign a statement of truth on my behalf
i understand it is a criminal offence to provide a false statement and if i did then i could go to prison.
That's six clauses.

The only one that sounds odd to me is (3): 'i derstand that if i agree then later refuse to attend i will be liable for all court costs and credit hire charges.'

Who is taking the other party to court, you or the insurance company?
That all looks perfectly normal to me.

You had the benefit of the hire, now help them get the money back.

jessica

Original Poster:

6,321 posts

251 months

Thursday 18th February 2010
quotequote all
paoloh said:
Simpo Two said:
jessica said:
it has five clauses.
i confirm i have not had a settlement already.
i confirm that i will co operate fully
i derstand that if i agree then later refuse to attend i will be liable for all court costs and credit hire charges.
i confirm information provided at the time of the accident are true.
i confirm that by signing this document i give sol to sign a statement of truth on my behalf
i understand it is a criminal offence to provide a false statement and if i did then i could go to prison.
That's six clauses.

The only one that sounds odd to me is (3): 'i derstand that if i agree then later refuse to attend i will be liable for all court costs and credit hire charges.'

Who is taking the other party to court, you or the insurance company?
That all looks perfectly normal to me.


I am more than happy to help them recover costs but I WILL NOT agree to be liable for them.
You had the benefit of the hire, now help them get the money back.

The Riddler

6,565 posts

196 months

Thursday 18th February 2010
quotequote all
davefowler1987 said:
jessica said:
pushes back door in.
hehe
Is that known as breaking them in gently?

paoloh

8,617 posts

203 months

Thursday 18th February 2010
quotequote all
jessica said:
paoloh said:
Simpo Two said:
jessica said:
it has five clauses.
i confirm i have not had a settlement already.
i confirm that i will co operate fully
i derstand that if i agree then later refuse to attend i will be liable for all court costs and credit hire charges.
i confirm information provided at the time of the accident are true.
i confirm that by signing this document i give sol to sign a statement of truth on my behalf
i understand it is a criminal offence to provide a false statement and if i did then i could go to prison.
That's six clauses.

The only one that sounds odd to me is (3): 'i derstand that if i agree then later refuse to attend i will be liable for all court costs and credit hire charges.'

Who is taking the other party to court, you or the insurance company?
That all looks perfectly normal to me.

You had the benefit of the hire, now help them get the money back.
I am more than happy to help them recover costs but I WILL NOT agree to be liable for them.
You already have when you signed the hire agreement.

mattviatura

2,996 posts

199 months

Thursday 18th February 2010
quotequote all
Jessica

I know a little bit about the credit hire industry, put your mind at rest you won't be liable. You might have to attend court as a witness and be asked whether or not you tried to mitigate your loss.

Don't worry about it, 99.9 per cent of these cases settle out of court in any event but you will not be liable.

jessica

Original Poster:

6,321 posts

251 months

Thursday 18th February 2010
quotequote all
mattviatura said:
Jessica

I know a little bit about the credit hire industry, put your mind at rest you won't be liable. You might have to attend court as a witness and be asked whether or not you tried to mitigate your loss.

Don't worry about it, 99.9 per cent of these cases settle out of court in any event but you will not be liable.
I have three disabled children. how in the hell am i going to attend court if it is miles away?
Can i ask for it to be held near my home town.

mikechandler

1,998 posts

201 months

Thursday 18th February 2010
quotequote all
mattviatura said:
Jessica

I know a little bit about the credit hire industry, put your mind at rest you won't be liable. You might have to attend court as a witness and be asked whether or not you tried to mitigate your loss.

Don't worry about it, 99.9 per cent of these cases settle out of court in any event but you will not be liable.
Woah, the OP is liable for the charges if a credit hire agreement has been signed (I would stake my life that it has). Whether the CHO choose to enforce that debt against OP if they can't recover from the TPI is a different matter.

OP, the chance of it proceeding to a court hearing is small - just give the solicitors all the assistance that you can.

Aero_saab

199 posts

211 months

Thursday 18th February 2010
quotequote all
Had this myself a while back, they do have you by the short and curlies!
Ended up in court for the morning having to prove I couldn't have hired a car myself out of my own pocket and claim it back later.
Fortuneatley I won the case, however it will make me think very long and hard about go down that route ever again!

nsmith1180

3,941 posts

177 months

Thursday 18th February 2010
quotequote all
You have recieved full settlement havnt you? Car repaired and back to you. Hire car provided. You cant sign to say you havnt recieved full settlement.

Piglet

6,250 posts

254 months

Friday 19th February 2010
quotequote all
As said above the Credit Agreement says that you are liable, the CHO's just don't bother to tell people that because they don't enforce the agreement. You HAVE to be liable otherwise it's not your loss and it can't be claimed in your name. It's the whole concept of credit hire. Did you sign an agreement?

If the matter goes to a court hearing you will have to go along and the Defendant's representative will ask you a whole bunch of questions about whether you knew at the time you signed the hire agreement that you were liable for the costs if they were not reclaimed from the other party. If you say no, there is no claim.

The other thing you should expect to be asked fairly soon is to prove your financial status, one of the defences to credit hire (which is stonkingly expensive) is that credit hire rates can only be claimed if the claimant is "impercunious" so that the claimant couldn't have afforded to hire on a "spot rate" basis - so that you couldn't have gone to Hertz or similar and hired a car. You will probably be asked to provide bank statements, details of credit cards etc. to prove that you were impercunious (if that is the case).

The problem is that the CHO's and accident management co's don't explain any of this stuff to those that enter into agreements.

It sounds like you were not aware that you were liable for the charges, in which case, unless you are going to perjure yourself you cannot go to court and be of use to them. I'd have a chat with them on that basis.

I suspect that the Defendant's insurer is objecting to the length of the hire. Why did you have a hire vehicle for 7 weeks?

Paul Drawmer

4,865 posts

266 months

Friday 19th February 2010
quotequote all
jessica said:
now five years on my insurance company are taking other side to small claims court.
However i have just had a letter from a solicitor asking me to sign a document to give them permission to go to court on my behalf and the insurance companies behalf.
it has five clauses.
i confirm i have not had a settlement already.
i confirm that i will co operate fully
i derstand that if i agree then later refuse to attend i will be liable for all court costs and credit hire charges.
i confirm information provided at the time of the accident are true.
i confirm that by signing this document i give sol to sign a statement of truth on my behalf
i understand it is a criminal offence to provide a false statement and if i did then i could go to prison.
I'm not sure that I see you have a problem.
The case is being handled by the solicitor on your behalf (actually as if they are you).
They need your authority to do this, and agreement that you will appear in court, in order for them to fight the case.
If you don't turn up, then it's possible that it will all be a waste of time.
Which of the clauses are you having difficulty with?

Edited by Paul Drawmer on Friday 19th February 09:55

TooLateForAName

4,729 posts

183 months

Friday 19th February 2010
quotequote all
I would ring your insurers and ask what's going on.


I have heard of the credit hire companies going after people personally when their ridiculous charges were kicked back by the court.

Piglet

6,250 posts

254 months

Friday 19th February 2010
quotequote all
Additional thought....does your initial post say that one of the clauses is that you give consent for a solicitor to sign a statement of truth on your behalf?

I would object to that one - I would consent to them signing something that I have approved but only after I had approved the document. I wouldn't give an open consent for someone to sign on my behalf without having seen the document.

jessica

Original Poster:

6,321 posts

251 months

Friday 19th February 2010
quotequote all
Piglet said:
Additional thought....does your initial post say that one of the clauses is that you give consent for a solicitor to sign a statement of truth on your behalf?

I would object to that one - I would consent to them signing something that I have approved but only after I had approved the document. I wouldn't give an open consent for someone to sign on my behalf without having seen the document.
Yes you are correct the solicitor wants me to agree to them sending things in on my behalf without me seeing them. Also found out today. Insurance company asked me for my permission in jan to pass this on to a solicitor and i never recieved letter. So I havent even given them permission to pass this on yet. i have written them a letter stating the above and also asking for a copy of the hire agreement. As i think my ex husband signed it not me. They also want to know how long i had the hire car for and how much it cost to repair my car. I cannot rememeber its five years ago. I can remember what was fixed on my car but not what it costs? I personally think they are blagging it and unless i sign something or the hire agreement says i am liable for costs they are gonna come unstuck. taking legal advice on this later today.

Piglet

6,250 posts

254 months

Friday 19th February 2010
quotequote all
Definitely ask for a copy of the hire agreement. If you (as policyholder and claimant) didn't sign it then they are dead in the water anyway. There is a recent case of Bracken (can't remember the other name, can email you details when I'm back at work next week) that confirms that if the policyholder/claimant didn't sign the Hire Agreement then it is not enforceable against them and therefore it can't be claimed against the Defendant by the claimant. In your case you can use this to them them to take a hike in pursuing you for the costs.

They won't pursue you though, it's the way credit hire works, they have to tell you that they will but they won't.

I can't remember if you said who the CHO is, was it Accident Exchange? They are pretty good at having non policyholder signatures and Bracken was one of their cases.

Do you know who the Defendant insurer is?

They don't need your consent to pass it to a solicitor, you are obligated under your policy to assist them and there are rights of subrogation within the policy that give them the ability to act in your shoes.