No Motor Vehicles Except for Access Sign?
Discussion
There is one of these on a route I used a couple of times a week. The length of road must be all of 50 yards long with 1 house on it (wonder if it's a local councillor ?) Used to use it till I passed a police car parked in it!.
I now by-pass it and use another "rat run" on much narrower roads
I now by-pass it and use another "rat run" on much narrower roads
We have a 3 ton one near us, as there is a primary school, a nursery, a shopping arcade and a health centre, as well as senior citizen housing blocks. It's just a feeder road to housing estates. Unfortunately, there is also an industrial estate at the far end.
There are also, depending from which direction you approach it, either 10 or 12 humps to negotiate, yet tossers in LGVs who are either very short-sighted or just ignorant will use it rather than a 500yard smooth open stretch from the by-pass.
I blame GPS myself!
There are also, depending from which direction you approach it, either 10 or 12 humps to negotiate, yet tossers in LGVs who are either very short-sighted or just ignorant will use it rather than a 500yard smooth open stretch from the by-pass.
I blame GPS myself!
Edited by fangio on Saturday 27th February 20:57
fangio said:
I blame GPS myself!
You might as well blame maps. Ordnance Survey paper, or Google electronic makes no difference.Or someone might have driven around the area and worked out which route is shortest...handy.
It's always nice to point the blame at technology but actually this has the square root of feck all to do with the issue - which is the locals aren't happy at OTHER PEOPLE (not them) driving on roads they think belong to them (which they don't).
Now personally I have sympathy. It's inappropriate for HGVs delivering to Tesco to be routed through quiet residential streets. But it WILL happen if a more suitable and convenient route is not provided.
You can't fix a structural problem with paint.
And that's all those signs are. Utterly unenforceable, useless "paint".
Don't blame motorists for having more intelligence than planners. Instead ask planners to take responsibility for problems, quite possibly unforseen, and fix them.
But be careful for what you wish for. It's a fifteen minute walk or fifteen minute drive to my local Supermarket. It should be a two minute drive...apart from a hill of earth blocking the road that prevents a "rat run". I hope whoever wanted that is happy...me I like walking...
Don said:
fangio said:
I blame GPS myself!
You might as well blame maps. Ordnance Survey paper, or Google electronic makes no difference.Or someone might have driven around the area and worked out which route is shortest...handy.
It's always nice to point the blame at technology but actually this has the square root of feck all to do with the issue - which is the locals aren't happy at OTHER PEOPLE (not them) driving on roads they think belong to them (which they don't).
Now personally I have sympathy. It's inappropriate for HGVs delivering to Tesco to be routed through quiet residential streets. But it WILL happen if a more suitable and convenient route is not provided.
You can't fix a structural problem with paint.
And that's all those signs are. Utterly unenforceable, useless "paint".
Don't blame motorists for having more intelligence than planners. Instead ask planners to take responsibility for problems, quite possibly unforseen, and fix them.
But be careful for what you wish for. It's a fifteen minute walk or fifteen minute drive to my local Supermarket. It should be a two minute drive...apart from a hill of earth blocking the road that prevents a "rat run". I hope whoever wanted that is happy...me I like walking...
I have rarely read so much truth and common sense in a post on PH
I wonder how many local councillors and NIMBYS we have in our ranks? Wherever or whoever you are, take that lot on board
Indeed, we have exactly this situation. Councillors and locals wanted a no access TRO to avoid rat running round a set of lights. They were told unequivocally by ultimately the top gaffers that it was unenforceable and there were no resources to enforce it. I commented that the only way to deal with it was to make the road physically no through but the residents didn't want that, or to make it one way as the rat running was really only in one direction.
Anyway residents and council got their way a TRO was put in place and the effect has been zero.
Well to be frank not zero but negative as the predictions by the chief were accurate ie unenforceable and no resources to enforce, a huge row in the council and the local rag about "who are the police to decide which laws they are to enforce, they're only ignoring this because they said it wouldn't work" and a street full of alienated residents so I'd stand by statement that it's had a negative effect.
Anyway residents and council got their way a TRO was put in place and the effect has been zero.
Well to be frank not zero but negative as the predictions by the chief were accurate ie unenforceable and no resources to enforce, a huge row in the council and the local rag about "who are the police to decide which laws they are to enforce, they're only ignoring this because they said it wouldn't work" and a street full of alienated residents so I'd stand by statement that it's had a negative effect.
F i F said:
Indeed, we have exactly this situation. Councillors and locals wanted a no access TRO to avoid rat running round a set of lights.
It's not their road! It's everyone's.How do you squash one of these?
Bet they changed the lights to one of those change to red if anything's coming types and included pedestrian when they've already crossed phases for further annoyance.
Suppose changing the lights to a mini-roundabout was too obvious?
saaby93 said:
Much argument not too far away when a road through a village attracted these signs each end. All to stop traffic avoiding a newly installed set of traffic lights on the main road.
There were reumours of police waiting for whoever drove straight through
If every village asked for and got this, what would happen to the road network
Don't Know to where you refer but if the village hard a shop/PO/pub are they still open,passing trade etc.This just plain selfish.There were reumours of police waiting for whoever drove straight through
If every village asked for and got this, what would happen to the road network
saaby93 said:
F i F said:
Indeed, we have exactly this situation. Councillors and locals wanted a no access TRO to avoid rat running round a set of lights.
It's not their road! It's everyone's.How do you squash one of these?
Bet they changed the lights to one of those change to red if anything's coming types and included pedestrian when they've already crossed phases for further annoyance.
Suppose changing the lights to a mini-roundabout was too obvious?
It's too major a junction for a mini roundabout, and not enough space for a proper roundabout that can handle the flow without compulsory purchase though that is the correct solution imo.
The problem is that space and traffic flows, esp right turners are such that a simple two way lights result in long queues and so the lights are multi phase, long queues.
What I don't get is why we in UK don't seem to have lights which are as flexible as the ones in Sweden. Nearest set of lights to my place are ones at a junction which seem to be quite similar to the problematic one in UK just talked about. The junction doesn't seem to take up any more space but there is a control system that seems to recognise odd vehicles sitting that can be released without conflicting and a green arrow lights up. Next time you come to them they'll react in a different way but more appropriate to the demands at the time. It's just as if their was a bobby really proficient in point duty standing in the middle.
The UK ones just cycle through their 4 way system.
F i F said:
Weeeellllll...
It's too major a junction for a mini roundabout, and not enough space for a proper roundabout that can handle the flow without compulsory purchase though that is the correct solution imo.
The problem is that space and traffic flows, esp right turners are such that a simple two way lights result in long queues and so the lights are multi phase, long queues.
What I don't get is why we in UK don't seem to have lights which are as flexible as the ones in Sweden. Nearest set of lights to my place are ones at a junction which seem to be quite similar to the problematic one in UK just talked about. The junction doesn't seem to take up any more space but there is a control system that seems to recognise odd vehicles sitting that can be released without conflicting and a green arrow lights up. Next time you come to them they'll react in a different way but more appropriate to the demands at the time. It's just as if their was a bobby really proficient in point duty standing in the middle.
The UK ones just cycle through their 4 way system.
Youd be surpised how when these type of lights are out a simple cone in the middle acting as a pseudo roundabout can improve traffic flows.It's too major a junction for a mini roundabout, and not enough space for a proper roundabout that can handle the flow without compulsory purchase though that is the correct solution imo.
The problem is that space and traffic flows, esp right turners are such that a simple two way lights result in long queues and so the lights are multi phase, long queues.
What I don't get is why we in UK don't seem to have lights which are as flexible as the ones in Sweden. Nearest set of lights to my place are ones at a junction which seem to be quite similar to the problematic one in UK just talked about. The junction doesn't seem to take up any more space but there is a control system that seems to recognise odd vehicles sitting that can be released without conflicting and a green arrow lights up. Next time you come to them they'll react in a different way but more appropriate to the demands at the time. It's just as if their was a bobby really proficient in point duty standing in the middle.
The UK ones just cycle through their 4 way system.
Further bet
The reason theses lights are so busy is due to them detrunking other local roads and forcing all the traffic onto these?
Why not let some of the traffic use the so-called rat-run?
saaby93 said:
Bet they changed the lights to one of those change to red if anything's coming types
As one who has written specifications for loads of traffic signal controllers over the past 30 years I have never heard of this particular feature. Perhaps you can enlighten?saaby93 said:
and included pedestrian when they've already crossed phases for further annoyance.
Not new - an unfortunate consequence of pedestrian phases, since the first one was introduced. Newer signals can have pedestrian presence detectors that act as "cancel" switches - ped presses button, signals note demand to include pedestrians at the appropriate point in the sequence. If the pedestrians crosses or wanders off before that time, the pedestrian demand is cancelled. Fairly new facility, but can be "rolled out" as signal equipment is replaced and/or where wandering pedestrians are a problem.saaby93 said:
Suppose changing the lights to a mini-roundabout was too obvious?
Depends - personally I think mini roundabouts are crap (they wouldn't be if most drivers knew how to use them, but they don't, so they are). Also, they don't work well if they are busy, and they don't help pedestrians. Depends on circumstances.Edited by tvrgit on Sunday 28th February 09:39
saaby93 said:
F i F said:
Weeeellllll...
It's too major a junction for a mini roundabout, and not enough space for a proper roundabout that can handle the flow without compulsory purchase though that is the correct solution imo.
The problem is that space and traffic flows, esp right turners are such that a simple two way lights result in long queues and so the lights are multi phase, long queues.
What I don't get is why we in UK don't seem to have lights which are as flexible as the ones in Sweden. Nearest set of lights to my place are ones at a junction which seem to be quite similar to the problematic one in UK just talked about. The junction doesn't seem to take up any more space but there is a control system that seems to recognise odd vehicles sitting that can be released without conflicting and a green arrow lights up. Next time you come to them they'll react in a different way but more appropriate to the demands at the time. It's just as if their was a bobby really proficient in point duty standing in the middle.
The UK ones just cycle through their 4 way system.
Youd be surpised how when these type of lights are out a simple cone in the middle acting as a pseudo roundabout can improve traffic flows.It's too major a junction for a mini roundabout, and not enough space for a proper roundabout that can handle the flow without compulsory purchase though that is the correct solution imo.
The problem is that space and traffic flows, esp right turners are such that a simple two way lights result in long queues and so the lights are multi phase, long queues.
What I don't get is why we in UK don't seem to have lights which are as flexible as the ones in Sweden. Nearest set of lights to my place are ones at a junction which seem to be quite similar to the problematic one in UK just talked about. The junction doesn't seem to take up any more space but there is a control system that seems to recognise odd vehicles sitting that can be released without conflicting and a green arrow lights up. Next time you come to them they'll react in a different way but more appropriate to the demands at the time. It's just as if their was a bobby really proficient in point duty standing in the middle.
The UK ones just cycle through their 4 way system.
Further bet
The reason theses lights are so busy is due to them detrunking other local roads and forcing all the traffic onto these?
Why not let some of the traffic use the so-called rat-run?
tvrgit said:
As one who has written specifications for loads of traffic signal controllers over the past 30 years I have never heard of this particular feature. Perhaps you can enlighten?
They detect a vehicle approaching and hold it with a red light so it blocks other traffic from doing a drive through, then give a green light to the crossing road. It's only a safety measure. It's not necessary to ask for it to get it.tvrgit said:
saaby93 said:
and included pedestrian when they've already crossed phases for further annoyance.
Not new - an unfortunate consequence of pedestrian phases, since the first one was introduced. Newer signals can have pedestrian presence detectors that act as "cancel" switches - ped presses button, signals note demand to include pedestrians at the appropriate point in the sequence. If the pedestrians crosses or wanders off before that time, the pedestrian demand is cancelled. Fairly new facility, but can be "rolled out" as signal equipment is replaced and/or where wandering pedestrians are a problem.tvrgit said:
saaby93 said:
Suppose changing the lights to a mini-roundabout was too obvious?
Depends - personally I think mini roundabouts are crap (they wouldn't be if most drivers knew how to use them, but they don't, so they are). 
Still seem to do better than lights? For pedestrians see above.I have a feeling that anything that makes road users of all types look at each other and decide what to do seems to work better than each of them interacting with their own set of lights ( but I had right of way).
Edited by saaby93 on Sunday 28th February 09:43
saaby93 said:
Further bet
The reason theses lights are so busy is due to them detrunking other local roads and forcing all the traffic onto these?
Why not let some of the traffic use the so-called rat-run?
Safer bet:The reason theses lights are so busy is due to them detrunking other local roads and forcing all the traffic onto these?
Why not let some of the traffic use the so-called rat-run?
If you lived on the "rat-run" you'd be the first to be complaining about the amount of traffic using it.
tvrgit said:
If you lived on the "rat-run" you'd be the first to be complaining about the amount of traffic using it.
Well if it had always been a so-called rat run, then as traffic levels increase we all have to take our fair share.If it had become a rat run due to some folks in another road asking for 'their' road to become 'no entry except for access' then too right I'd be complaining.
saaby93 said:
tvrgit said:
If you lived on the "rat-run" you'd be the first to be complaining about the amount of traffic using it.
Well if it had always been a so-called rat run, then as traffic levels increase we all have to take our fair share.As per my post yesterday: if they live on it, it's a rat run and they want it closed.
If they don't live on it, it's fair fame and they complain like hell if it's closed.
As FiF said earlier, it depends who has the local councillors on their side, who are prepared to over-rule the advice of their professional officers and the police.
tvrgit said:
Well that's a very altruistic view, unfortunately not shared by "the public" in general.
That's what councillors are for, to put the view that if everyone wants to use their car, everyone will have more traffic on their road.tvrgit said:
As per my post yesterday: if they live on it, it's a rat run and they want it closed.
If they don't live on it, it's fair fame and they complain like hell if it's closed.
As FiF said earlier, it depends who has the local councillors on their side, who are prepared to over-rule the advice of their professional officers and the police.
Yup. Then having barred traffic from that road they find that another road is now up in arms.If they don't live on it, it's fair fame and they complain like hell if it's closed.
As FiF said earlier, it depends who has the local councillors on their side, who are prepared to over-rule the advice of their professional officers and the police.
If it was all spread thinly there'd be enough for everyone, rather than some haves and some have nots
There we go - good to put the world to rights
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff