Nice letter to the DVLA?
Discussion
Today's reply....
"Dear Me
Thank you for your response concerning the late licencing panalty imposed upon you for failing to reliceence your vehicle as required. Your comments have been noted.
Whilst the Agency makes every effort to send reminder letters to all registered keepers, there is no statutory obligation for the DVLA to issue vehicle licence reminders. It is the keeper's responsibility to ensure that if the vehicle is used/kept on the public road,it is licenced at all times. In the absence of a reminder, a keeper may still relicence their vehicle by completing form V10. If the vehicle is kept off the public road you must complete a Statutory Off Road Notification (SORN) declaration.
It has been a legal requirement since January 1998 that the registered keeper of a vehicle must ensure that it is, at all times, either licenced or that a Statutory Off Road Notification (SORN) is made. Under Continuous Registration (CR) introduced in January 2004, the registered keeper will remain responsible for re-licencing, or the declaration of SORN until the DVLA has been formally notified of the vehicles transfer, destruction, export or theft and they have a receipt from the DVLA acknowledging their disposal notification.
In your case the disposal notification for this vehicle was not recieved at DVLA and therefore the vehicle remained registered in your name. The requirement to notify disposal of a vehicle is contained within Regulation22-24 of the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licencing) Regulations 2002.
The Agency issued an acknowledgement letter on reciept of disposal notifications and SORN declarations. Information on disposal of a vehicle is available on the Vehicle Registration Certificate (V5C). If a keeper cannot provide a copy of a valid ackowledgement letter issued by DVLA foe a SORN or disposal notice, dated prior to 21/07/2010 he/she has no deffence against the enforcement action. The acknowledgement letter issued after the commencement of enforcement proceedings would not be accepted as mitigation.
"Whilst the Acknowledgement Letter issued to confirm Stautory Off Road Notification (SORN) and disposal notifications is not legislation, it has been designed to remove any uncertainty that may be experienced by either the sender or intended recipient as to whether a notification of SORN or disposal has actually bee sent or recieved. The DVLA would be failing to correctly discharge its responsibilities if it disregarded the role this letter plays in Continuous Registration (CR) and the obligation placed on the individual to act in the case of non-reciept."
The mittigation you submitted is noted, but it does not materially alter the outcome of your case or constitiute a defence. Consequently you are still liable for the £80 penalty which must be recieved by this office by 14/10/2010. Failure to make this payment may result in your case being referred to a debt collection agency for further action.
The last paragraph is about how to make the payment.
Yours
Someone else
Enforcement Officer"
"Dear Me
Thank you for your response concerning the late licencing panalty imposed upon you for failing to reliceence your vehicle as required. Your comments have been noted.
Whilst the Agency makes every effort to send reminder letters to all registered keepers, there is no statutory obligation for the DVLA to issue vehicle licence reminders. It is the keeper's responsibility to ensure that if the vehicle is used/kept on the public road,it is licenced at all times. In the absence of a reminder, a keeper may still relicence their vehicle by completing form V10. If the vehicle is kept off the public road you must complete a Statutory Off Road Notification (SORN) declaration.
It has been a legal requirement since January 1998 that the registered keeper of a vehicle must ensure that it is, at all times, either licenced or that a Statutory Off Road Notification (SORN) is made. Under Continuous Registration (CR) introduced in January 2004, the registered keeper will remain responsible for re-licencing, or the declaration of SORN until the DVLA has been formally notified of the vehicles transfer, destruction, export or theft and they have a receipt from the DVLA acknowledging their disposal notification.
In your case the disposal notification for this vehicle was not recieved at DVLA and therefore the vehicle remained registered in your name. The requirement to notify disposal of a vehicle is contained within Regulation22-24 of the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licencing) Regulations 2002.
The Agency issued an acknowledgement letter on reciept of disposal notifications and SORN declarations. Information on disposal of a vehicle is available on the Vehicle Registration Certificate (V5C). If a keeper cannot provide a copy of a valid ackowledgement letter issued by DVLA foe a SORN or disposal notice, dated prior to 21/07/2010 he/she has no deffence against the enforcement action. The acknowledgement letter issued after the commencement of enforcement proceedings would not be accepted as mitigation.
"Whilst the Acknowledgement Letter issued to confirm Stautory Off Road Notification (SORN) and disposal notifications is not legislation, it has been designed to remove any uncertainty that may be experienced by either the sender or intended recipient as to whether a notification of SORN or disposal has actually bee sent or recieved. The DVLA would be failing to correctly discharge its responsibilities if it disregarded the role this letter plays in Continuous Registration (CR) and the obligation placed on the individual to act in the case of non-reciept."
The mittigation you submitted is noted, but it does not materially alter the outcome of your case or constitiute a defence. Consequently you are still liable for the £80 penalty which must be recieved by this office by 14/10/2010. Failure to make this payment may result in your case being referred to a debt collection agency for further action.
The last paragraph is about how to make the payment.
Yours
Someone else
Enforcement Officer"
Sentences I'm considering for the reply to the latest installment.
"If any collection agencey is sent to my property I will make a citizens arrest for criminal trespass with intent to commit agrevated theft and attempted agrivated theft then hand them over to the Police."
"I agree that you have pointed out the registered keeper of the vehicle should take responsability for Continuous Registration , but when I sent the V5C to the DVLA I fully relinquished that responsability and it is the DVLA to ensure that all post sent to them is processed correctly not mine."
"The representetive of the DVLA used terms in the last letter such as "mitigation", "evidence", "constitute a defence" and "enforcemet proceedings" I fail to reccognise the DVLA as an authority with the powers of a court and reject any suggestion of a fine and or penalty that is not issued by anyone other than a Judge or Magistrate. Not an authority who sees itself as judge, jury and executioner."
I think I'd better calm down a bit first eh?
"If any collection agencey is sent to my property I will make a citizens arrest for criminal trespass with intent to commit agrevated theft and attempted agrivated theft then hand them over to the Police."
"I agree that you have pointed out the registered keeper of the vehicle should take responsability for Continuous Registration , but when I sent the V5C to the DVLA I fully relinquished that responsability and it is the DVLA to ensure that all post sent to them is processed correctly not mine."
"The representetive of the DVLA used terms in the last letter such as "mitigation", "evidence", "constitute a defence" and "enforcemet proceedings" I fail to reccognise the DVLA as an authority with the powers of a court and reject any suggestion of a fine and or penalty that is not issued by anyone other than a Judge or Magistrate. Not an authority who sees itself as judge, jury and executioner."
I think I'd better calm down a bit first eh?
Strangely Brown said:
Liquid Knight said:
Failure to make this payment may result in your case being referred to a debt collection agency for further action.
Can they do that without taking you to court first?
I don't think they can without a civil court proceedure but I will be checking on that.
I just did quick google for DVLA and courts and this was the first hit.
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthr...
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthr...
Liquid Knight said:
Sentences I'm considering for the reply to the latest installment.
"If any collection agencey is sent to my property I will make a citizens arrest for criminal trespass with intent to commit agrevated theft and attempted agrivated theft then hand them over to the Police."
"I agree that you have pointed out the registered keeper of the vehicle should take responsability for Continuous Registration , but when I sent the V5C to the DVLA I fully relinquished that responsability and it is the DVLA to ensure that all post sent to them is processed correctly not mine."
"The representetive of the DVLA used terms in the last letter such as "mitigation", "evidence", "constitute a defence" and "enforcemet proceedings" I fail to reccognise the DVLA as an authority with the powers of a court and reject any suggestion of a fine and or penalty that is not issued by anyone other than a Judge or Magistrate. Not an authority who sees itself as judge, jury and executioner."
I think I'd better calm down a bit first eh?
Do you live on Crown Land or in a property owned by the railways or on a Site of Special Scientific Interest? If not, no Criminal Trespass will occur."If any collection agencey is sent to my property I will make a citizens arrest for criminal trespass with intent to commit agrevated theft and attempted agrivated theft then hand them over to the Police."
"I agree that you have pointed out the registered keeper of the vehicle should take responsability for Continuous Registration , but when I sent the V5C to the DVLA I fully relinquished that responsability and it is the DVLA to ensure that all post sent to them is processed correctly not mine."
"The representetive of the DVLA used terms in the last letter such as "mitigation", "evidence", "constitute a defence" and "enforcemet proceedings" I fail to reccognise the DVLA as an authority with the powers of a court and reject any suggestion of a fine and or penalty that is not issued by anyone other than a Judge or Magistrate. Not an authority who sees itself as judge, jury and executioner."
I think I'd better calm down a bit first eh?
It would seem that you can now either pay up, or invite DVLA to take you to court. If you decide upon the latter, I strongly suggest you seek expert advice from a solicitor.
Streaky
Strangely Brown said:
I just did quick google for DVLA and courts and this was the first hit.
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthr...
Surely the person who authorises the sending of such letters by the DVLA is committing an offence under s21 Theft Act 1968.http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthr...
Officials at the DVLA must know that the wording of the Interpretation Act means that they cannot have "reasonable grounds for making the demand"; further, the menaces used in their letters are not within the course of law, so cannot be considered a "proper means of reinforcing the demand". Thus DVLA stand accused of trying to blackmail people into paying. Their refusal to proceed with cases (seemingly usually at very short notice) appears to reinforce the view that they know they are acting illegally.
Perhaps someone affected by this would like to bring the matter to the attention of the Heddlu De Cymru in the (probably vain) hope that matters will follow the same course as Essex Police have recently taken against two individuals from a clamping company.
Streaky
Liquid Knight said:
In your case the disposal notification for this vehicle was not recieved at DVLA
Could you ask ask them if they would be prepared to swear on oath that no documentation sent to them by a member of the public has ever gone missing, either within the postal system or within their internal filing system? 
Seem to be sticking their heels in. I have heard nothing since my last letter. Not sure if that is good news or bad!
In any case, you just reminded me that I had a tax reminder earlier this month. After finding out that the car that I thought was running out of tax is not, I have just realised that this means the 2nd car needs the tax. Oops.
In any case, you just reminded me that I had a tax reminder earlier this month. After finding out that the car that I thought was running out of tax is not, I have just realised that this means the 2nd car needs the tax. Oops.
Letter three; draft one.
Dear Sir/Madam (been sent replies by a different person every time so I've given up using names),
I’m writing to you in reference to an ongoing issue concerning a vehicle previously registered to me Bla (your reference Bla-Bla) and my refusal to pay a fine for failing declare the foresaid vehicle as SORN.
In my previous letter I mentioned the Interpretations Act 1978, Sec 7 which states “Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression "serve" or the expression " give " or " send " or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.”
Your argument was that the “Acknowledgement letter” sent by the DVLA is "designed to remove any uncertainty" and would act as irrefutable proof that the DVLA has received the V5 certificate from myself. This is obviously flawed. All this letter actually proves is the DVLA have sent a letter and nothing more. If yourself or another representative of the DVLA were willing to state in a court under oath that the DVLA does not lose any of its correspondence I would be more than happy to field that question in front of Magistrates or a Judge, members of the public and/or the press. Then address their answer with over a hundred recorded instances where the DVLA has failed in the past.
An Acknowledgement letter will not prove beyond reasonable doubt the sending or not of a V5 registration document. If the DVLA either failed to receive the document or failed to process the document then it is the DVLA or Post Service who is at fault and therefore as I have committed no offence and I should not be fined.
In the last letter from Mrs Quack-quack terms such as “no defence against enforcement action”, “mitigation” and “constitute a defence” were used. I do not recognise the DVLA as an authority that has the power of a court. If the DVLA would like to deal with this matter properly in a public court then the nearest one to me is in King’s Lynn, Norfolk.
I will not pay a fine for an offence I have not committed, I will also not submit to any threats of recovery agency intervention as this is an obvious attempt to obtain monies by intimidation and contrary to the “Theft Act 1968”. If any recovery agency enters my property they will be arrested for attempted theft by myself and handed over to the Police. Should I receive a negative point on my credit rating as a result of the DVLA not processing/receiving a V5 registration document properly I will consider it a deliberate defamation of my character and instruct my solicitors to act accordingly.
Yours Sincerely,
Me.
I think I need to calm down a bit more.
Dear Sir/Madam (been sent replies by a different person every time so I've given up using names),
I’m writing to you in reference to an ongoing issue concerning a vehicle previously registered to me Bla (your reference Bla-Bla) and my refusal to pay a fine for failing declare the foresaid vehicle as SORN.
In my previous letter I mentioned the Interpretations Act 1978, Sec 7 which states “Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression "serve" or the expression " give " or " send " or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.”
Your argument was that the “Acknowledgement letter” sent by the DVLA is "designed to remove any uncertainty" and would act as irrefutable proof that the DVLA has received the V5 certificate from myself. This is obviously flawed. All this letter actually proves is the DVLA have sent a letter and nothing more. If yourself or another representative of the DVLA were willing to state in a court under oath that the DVLA does not lose any of its correspondence I would be more than happy to field that question in front of Magistrates or a Judge, members of the public and/or the press. Then address their answer with over a hundred recorded instances where the DVLA has failed in the past.
An Acknowledgement letter will not prove beyond reasonable doubt the sending or not of a V5 registration document. If the DVLA either failed to receive the document or failed to process the document then it is the DVLA or Post Service who is at fault and therefore as I have committed no offence and I should not be fined.
In the last letter from Mrs Quack-quack terms such as “no defence against enforcement action”, “mitigation” and “constitute a defence” were used. I do not recognise the DVLA as an authority that has the power of a court. If the DVLA would like to deal with this matter properly in a public court then the nearest one to me is in King’s Lynn, Norfolk.
I will not pay a fine for an offence I have not committed, I will also not submit to any threats of recovery agency intervention as this is an obvious attempt to obtain monies by intimidation and contrary to the “Theft Act 1968”. If any recovery agency enters my property they will be arrested for attempted theft by myself and handed over to the Police. Should I receive a negative point on my credit rating as a result of the DVLA not processing/receiving a V5 registration document properly I will consider it a deliberate defamation of my character and instruct my solicitors to act accordingly.
Yours Sincerely,
Me.
I think I need to calm down a bit more.
Liquid Knight said:
Do you think being accused of theft and defamation of character would go down well?
If you'll excuse the comment, you're starting to come across like a barrack room lawyer. Making threats of arrest etc. just makes you look like Mr. Shouty and weakens your position. Simply state the facts and then leave it to them to take you to court.My blood would be equally boiling but I would also suggest keeping it short:
Dear DVLA,
Your latest letter makes clear that you have neither properly read, nor understood my last letter to you.
You seem to think that it is in your power to invent new laws, viz:
I suggest you try it out in court.
Yours etc.
Dear DVLA,
Your latest letter makes clear that you have neither properly read, nor understood my last letter to you.
You seem to think that it is in your power to invent new laws, viz:
DVLA said:
If a keeper cannot provide a copy of a valid ackowledgement letter issued by DVLA for a SORN or disposal notice, dated prior to 21/07/2010 he/she has no defence against the enforcement action.
This statement has no truth either in statute or case law.I suggest you try it out in court.
Yours etc.
Strangely Brown said:
Liquid Knight said:
Do you think being accused of theft and defamation of character would go down well?
If you'll excuse the comment, you're starting to come across like a barrack room lawyer. Making threats of arrest etc. just makes you look like Mr. Shouty and weakens your position. Simply state the facts and then leave it to them to take you to court.So letter three draft two....
I’m writing to you in reference to the continuing issue concerning a vehicle previously registered to me Blah (your reference Blah-Blah) and my refusal to pay a fine for failing declare the foresaid vehicle as SORN.
In my previous letter I mentioned the Interpretations Act 1978, Sec 7 which states “Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression "serve" or the expression " give " or " send " or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.”
Your argument was that the “Acknowledgement letter” sent by the DVLA is “designed to remove any uncertainty” that the DVLA has received or not the V5 certificate from the sender. This is obviously flawed. All this letter actually proves is the DVLA have sent a letter and nothing more. It does not prove the DVLA have received the V5C or not and does not prove the DVLA has processed the V5C correctly or not.
An Acknowledgement letter will not prove beyond reasonable doubt the sending or not of a V5 registration document. If the DVLA either failed to receive the document or failed to process the document then it is either the DVLA or Post Service who is at fault.
In the last letter a representative of the DVLA used terms such as “no defence against enforcement action”, “mitigation” and “constitute a defence”. I do not recognise the DVLA as an authority that has the power to act as a court. If the DVLA would like to deal with this matter properly in a public court then the nearest one to me is in King’s Lynn, Norfolk.
Yours Sincerely,
Me
....and breathe out and think of a happy place.
I’m writing to you in reference to the continuing issue concerning a vehicle previously registered to me Blah (your reference Blah-Blah) and my refusal to pay a fine for failing declare the foresaid vehicle as SORN.
In my previous letter I mentioned the Interpretations Act 1978, Sec 7 which states “Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression "serve" or the expression " give " or " send " or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.”
Your argument was that the “Acknowledgement letter” sent by the DVLA is “designed to remove any uncertainty” that the DVLA has received or not the V5 certificate from the sender. This is obviously flawed. All this letter actually proves is the DVLA have sent a letter and nothing more. It does not prove the DVLA have received the V5C or not and does not prove the DVLA has processed the V5C correctly or not.
An Acknowledgement letter will not prove beyond reasonable doubt the sending or not of a V5 registration document. If the DVLA either failed to receive the document or failed to process the document then it is either the DVLA or Post Service who is at fault.
In the last letter a representative of the DVLA used terms such as “no defence against enforcement action”, “mitigation” and “constitute a defence”. I do not recognise the DVLA as an authority that has the power to act as a court. If the DVLA would like to deal with this matter properly in a public court then the nearest one to me is in King’s Lynn, Norfolk.
Yours Sincerely,
Me
....and breathe out and think of a happy place.
Edited by Liquid Knight on Tuesday 5th October 15:34
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