Nice letter to the DVLA?

[streaky]

I respectfully suggest:

Draft letter to DVLA said:

Your reference: Blah, blah

Dear <last correspondent, by title and last name>

I write with reference to the continuing issue concerning a vehicle previously registered to me and my refusal to pay a fine for failing declare the foresaid vehicle as SORN.

In my letter dated DD-MMM-YYY, I referred to the Interpretations Act 1978, Sec 7 which states, “Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression "serve" or the expression " give " or " send " or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.” I maintain that I have served the V5 document upon yourselves in accordance with the Act.

You have stated that an “Acknowledgement letter” sent by yourselves is “designed to remove any uncertainty” that you have received the V5 certificate from the sender. Whist this might be so in your eyes, it is not a requirement in law nor does it negate the clear meaning of the Act, nor is the intended recipient aware from the V5 document itself that you will send such a letter.[I assume this to be the case from foregoing remarks in this thread. Delete this last phrase if the V5 document (not the website or anywhere else) explicitly refers to an acknowledgement letter being sent.]

Should you desire to continue your pursuit of this issue, I welcome an early opportunity to put my case before a Court and now decline to further correspond with yourselves, save to acknowledge your apology and official termination of the matter.

Yours sincerely,

(signed)

Streaky

[With these feet]

You will succeed in getting a letter from some woman that runs the department which will basically say you owe, pay. You didnt follow the procedure that millions of other motorists do so prepare to pay up.

As I put earlier in the thread the value of the time and effort youre now putting into this will far exceed the £40 fine, along with the chance of them saying its now back to £80 or indeed "sending the boys round". Sure none of us like to get done-over, but for £40.....

[Cyberprog]

What boggles me is why you can't do this stuff online these days? Login to your DVLA account, and accept or send the registered keeper for a given registration mark to or from another user, or click a button to renew it's SORN status.
Oh, hang on, I forgot. The DVLA has a building full of mouth breathers in Swansea they have to keep busy.

[Red Devil]

streaky said:

I respectfully suggest:

Draft letter to DVLA said:

Your reference: Blah, blah

Dear <last correspondent, by title and last name>

I write with reference to the continuing issue concerning a vehicle previously registered to me and my refusal to pay a fine for failing declare the foresaid vehicle as SORN.

In my letter dated DD-MMM-YYY, I referred to the Interpretations Act 1978, Sec 7 which states, “Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression "serve" or the expression " give " or " send " or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.” I maintain that I have served the V5 document upon yourselves in accordance with the Act.

You have stated that an “Acknowledgement letter” sent by yourselves is “designed to remove any uncertainty” that you have received the V5 certificate from the sender. Whist this might be so in your eyes, it is not a requirement in law nor does it negate the clear meaning of the Act, nor is the intended recipient aware from the V5 document itself that you will send such a letter.[I assume this to be the case from foregoing remarks in this thread. Delete this last phrase if the V5 document (not the website or anywhere else) explicitly refers to an acknowledgement letter being sent.]

Should you desire to continue your pursuit of this issue, I welcome an early opportunity to put my case before a Court and now decline to further correspond with yourselves, save to acknowledge your apology and official termination of the matter.

Yours sincerely,

(signed)

Streaky

I think you will find the V5C does contain wording to that effect. However it is remarkably stupid for them to put it on the document that the RK has to return to DVLA and therefore has nothing to refer to! Whether it is there or not makes no difference though. The acknowledgement letter is merely a device which DVLA are using to try and justify imposing penalties.

If, instead of rolling over, everyone who could produce proof of posting challenged them to let the court decide I reckon they would soon fold. Two judges have already told them where to get off. The more the merrier.

[streaky]

With these feet said:

You will succeed in getting a letter from some woman that runs the department which will basically say you owe, pay. You didnt follow the procedure that millions of other motorists do so prepare to pay up.

But the OP did follow the procedure.

With these feet said:

As I put earlier in the thread the value of the time and effort youre now putting into this will far exceed the £40 fine, along with the chance of them saying its now back to £80 or indeed "sending the boys round". Sure none of us like to get done-over, but for £40.....

The OP is spending their own time and a little money fighting for a principle. Whilst solicitors make a lot of money this way, it hasn't got that far yet. You obviously consider that DVLA has the right and the power to levy fines, contrary to law. If that's the country you want to inhabit, I am sorry for you.

DVLA cannot "send the boys round" without going to court to enforce the debt ... at that stage, the OP has the opportunity to put forward their reasons ("defence") for not paying. The OP can have the hearing moved to their local court - presenting DVLA with (the potential for) greater cost for representation.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that DVLA folds before a court appearance in these matters - presumably because they have no wish to be shown up in the harsh light of the media as being in the wrong, and, as a consequence, suffer a rush of reclaims from previously wrongly 'fined' victims.

Streaky

[BigBob]

Cyberprog said:

What boggles me is why you can't do this stuff online these days? Login to your DVLA account, and accept or send the registered keeper for a given registration mark to or from another user, or click a button to renew it's SORN status.
Oh, hang on, I forgot. The DVLA has a building full of mouth breathers in Swansea they have to keep busy.

You can SORN on-line - I always do. You get a virtually instant email response confirming the vehicle as SORN and sometime in the future a confirmation letter - at least I always have.

The cherry on the cake is the email confirmation receipt which is stored on the ISP's server so you always know where it is.

BB

[Liquid Knight]

Exactly the point I'm trying to make Streaky. Also the DVLA have probably spent more than the £80 fine in administrating the letters I've sent so far.

So I either get to go to court and make the DVLA look like the thieves they are, the DVLA back down or the DVLA spend more than the fine is worth making it a futile exercise on their part.

Win, win, win situation and my principals are intact.

Edited by Liquid Knight on Wednesday 6th October 08:29

[Liquid Knight]

I strongly reccomend that everybody takes the same course of action. If collecting an unlawful £80 fine cost the DVLA more maybe they'll get the point.

[Nick M]

With these feet said:

You will succeed in getting a letter from some woman that runs the department which will basically say you owe, pay. You didnt follow the procedure that millions of other motorists do so prepare to pay up.

As I put earlier in the thread the value of the time and effort youre now putting into this will far exceed the £40 fine, along with the chance of them saying its now back to £80 or indeed "sending the boys round". Sure none of us like to get done-over, but for £40.....

Sadly, and this isn't a personal dig or criticism, it seems that it's precisely that sort of apathy which the DVLA relies upon to impose these fines, on the assumption that most people will simply grumble but capitulate on the basis they have no expectation of 'winning' against a faceless bureaucratic institution.

Too many people assume that because the letter they have got from the DVLA (or pretty much any other agency such as HMRC, the police, etc.) looks official then it must be correct, but the reality is that such documents can contain fundamental flaws which undermine their legality, and that simply should not be.

For the sake of a bit of time and effort, I think it's well worth the OP continuing to challenge this one. In fact, it would be nice if, ultimately, it could be publicised so the DVLA were made to change their ways, although I suspect that's simply wishful thinking on my part.

[Liquid Knight]

Thanks Nick.

Have a look at my "DV-LA-la-la I'm not listening" thread in general gassing and get on board if you like.

[Nick M]

Liquid Knight said:

Thanks Nick.

Have a look at my "DV-LA-la-la I'm not listening" thread in general gassing and get on board if you like.

[streaky]

Liquid Knight said:

... my principals are intact.

Always best to ensure the main things are taken care of

"Principal" - first or highest in rank, importance, value, etc.

"Principle" - guiding sense of the requirements and obligations of right conduct.

Streaky

[With these feet]

Nick M said:

With these feet said:

You will succeed in getting a letter from some woman that runs the department which will basically say you owe, pay. You didnt follow the procedure that millions of other motorists do so prepare to pay up.

As I put earlier in the thread the value of the time and effort youre now putting into this will far exceed the £40 fine, along with the chance of them saying its now back to £80 or indeed "sending the boys round". Sure none of us like to get done-over, but for £40.....

Sadly, and this isn't a personal dig or criticism, it seems that it's precisely that sort of apathy which the DVLA relies upon to impose these fines, on the assumption that most people will simply grumble but capitulate on the basis they have no expectation of 'winning' against a faceless bureaucratic institution.

Too many people assume that because the letter they have got from the DVLA (or pretty much any other agency such as HMRC, the police, etc.) looks official then it must be correct, but the reality is that such documents can contain fundamental flaws which undermine their legality, and that simply should not be.

For the sake of a bit of time and effort, I think it's well worth the OP continuing to challenge this one. In fact, it would be nice if, ultimately, it could be publicised so the DVLA were made to change their ways, although I suspect that's simply wishful thinking on my part.

Trust me, I wrote quite a few letters and jusy got fed up with the robotic replies that were returned.
Why should I be fined for their incompetence?

My gripe is that if someone does not pay, what is the next step, and can it end up in court?

[Red Devil]

streaky said:

With these feet said:

You will succeed in getting a letter from some woman that runs the department which will basically say you owe, pay. You didnt follow the procedure that millions of other motorists do so prepare to pay up.

But the OP did follow the procedure.

With these feet said:

As I put earlier in the thread the value of the time and effort youre now putting into this will far exceed the £40 fine, along with the chance of them saying its now back to £80 or indeed "sending the boys round". Sure none of us like to get done-over, but for £40.....

The OP is spending their own time and a little money fighting for a principle. Whilst solicitors make a lot of money this way, it hasn't got that far yet. You obviously consider that DVLA has the right and the power to levy fines, contrary to law. If that's the country you want to inhabit, I am sorry for you.

DVLA cannot "send the boys round" without going to court to enforce the debt ... at that stage, the OP has the opportunity to put forward their reasons ("defence") for not paying. The OP can have the hearing moved to their local court - presenting DVLA with (the potential for) greater cost for representation.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that DVLA folds before a court appearance in these matters - presumably because they have no wish to be shown up in the harsh light of the media as being in the wrong, and, as a consequence, suffer a rush of reclaims from previously wrongly 'fined' victims.

Streaky

Hopefully that is the case. However it should be borne in mind that DVLA don't care how much money they waste because as goverment agency they have deep pockets which all of us are funding through taxation and (unlawful) penalties. Where money is concerned it is a spiteful and intransigent organisation exemplified by the attitude of its Chief Executive. It is high time there was a test case in a superior court which would be binding on lower ones. Anyone with a decent chunk of disposable income available to take them on?

[streaky]

Red Devil said:

streaky said:

With these feet said:

You will succeed in getting a letter from some woman that runs the department which will basically say you owe, pay. You didnt follow the procedure that millions of other motorists do so prepare to pay up.

But the OP did follow the procedure.

With these feet said:

As I put earlier in the thread the value of the time and effort youre now putting into this will far exceed the £40 fine, along with the chance of them saying its now back to £80 or indeed "sending the boys round". Sure none of us like to get done-over, but for £40.....

The OP is spending their own time and a little money fighting for a principle. Whilst solicitors make a lot of money this way, it hasn't got that far yet. You obviously consider that DVLA has the right and the power to levy fines, contrary to law. If that's the country you want to inhabit, I am sorry for you.

DVLA cannot "send the boys round" without going to court to enforce the debt ... at that stage, the OP has the opportunity to put forward their reasons ("defence") for not paying. The OP can have the hearing moved to their local court - presenting DVLA with (the potential for) greater cost for representation.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that DVLA folds before a court appearance in these matters - presumably because they have no wish to be shown up in the harsh light of the media as being in the wrong, and, as a consequence, suffer a rush of reclaims from previously wrongly 'fined' victims.

Streaky

Hopefully that is the case. However it should be borne in mind that DVLA don't care how much money they waste because as goverment agency they have deep pockets which all of us are funding through taxation and (unlawful) penalties.

Rapidly becoming shallower - Streaky

[sim16v]

Maybe its worth not actually complaining to the MP, as he might actually get something done about it to close any loop holes.


I'd say we are better by continually fighting individually, knowing that we will always win.

If the procedures change they might find something that they can actually fine us for.

[philthy]

TuxRacer said:

I don't think debt collection agencies deal with matters where there's an ongoing dispute about whether monies are owed?

The first I heard of a sorn penalty, was a letter from moorcroft recovery, demanding £80.
I sold the bike in 2005 to my brother, who received his V5 as he should have. The DVLA computer must have had a brain fart, because it suddenly fined me £80 for not declaring sorn.
I explained this to moorcroft, who couldn't give a st. Their usual policy seems to be harass the hell out of you by phone and letter. I told them I would see them in court, as the debt was disputed. Luckily for me, I was changing my phone number, and they were writing to my 2005 address.
Never heard any more about it.
If they sell the "penalty" on to a debt recovery agency, just tell them you will see them in court. You will of course be claiming all expenses incurred, plus a fee for your time.

It is a scam perpetrated by a bullying organisation.
Somebody in government needs to light a fire under the wkers at DVLA.

[Cyberprog]

philthy said:

TuxRacer said:

I don't think debt collection agencies deal with matters where there's an ongoing dispute about whether monies are owed?

The first I heard of a sorn penalty, was a letter from moorcroft recovery, demanding £80.
I sold the bike in 2005 to my brother, who received his V5 as he should have. The DVLA computer must have had a brain fart, because it suddenly fined me £80 for not declaring sorn.
I explained this to moorcroft, who couldn't give a st. Their usual policy seems to be harass the hell out of you by phone and letter. I told them I would see them in court, as the debt was disputed. Luckily for me, I was changing my phone number, and they were writing to my 2005 address.
Never heard any more about it.
If they sell the "penalty" on to a debt recovery agency, just tell them you will see them in court. You will of course be claiming all expenses incurred, plus a fee for your time.

It is a scam perpetrated by a bullying organisation.
Somebody in government needs to light a fire under the wkers at DVLA.

Have you checked your credit history in case they did take you to court?

[philthy]

Cyberprog said:

Have you checked your credit history in case they did take you to court?

Yes, did the experian thing, and there was no mention of it.

[Liquid Knight]

Cyberprog said:

philthy said:

TuxRacer said:

I don't think debt collection agencies deal with matters where there's an ongoing dispute about whether monies are owed?

The first I heard of a sorn penalty, was a letter from moorcroft recovery, demanding £80.
I sold the bike in 2005 to my brother, who received his V5 as he should have. The DVLA computer must have had a brain fart, because it suddenly fined me £80 for not declaring sorn.
I explained this to moorcroft, who couldn't give a st. Their usual policy seems to be harass the hell out of you by phone and letter. I told them I would see them in court, as the debt was disputed. Luckily for me, I was changing my phone number, and they were writing to my 2005 address.
Never heard any more about it.
If they sell the "penalty" on to a debt recovery agency, just tell them you will see them in court. You will of course be claiming all expenses incurred, plus a fee for your time.

It is a scam perpetrated by a bullying organisation.
Somebody in government needs to light a fire under the wkers at DVLA.

Have you checked your credit history in case they did take you to court?

Plus 1 I know a chap who was held back from joining the Prison service because of a CCJ that he didn't know about. It was the DVLA as well.