Nice letter to the DVLA?
Discussion
Lucas North said:
Does that mean they're going to turn up and clamp any vehicle on the drive, or does it HAVE to be the one that's already been scrapped...
I do not know; I'm sure the DVLA have released all the vehicles registered to me to this company, but as all my cars are parked on private property there is no way they can be immobilised legally (I used to clamp cars as part of my job) without the land owners (my) permision. "Immobilization of Vehicles Act 2010". So they would have to ask me for right of access to clamp my car on my property (or the site manager at my place of work) so I can't see it happening. I'll keep my 9" cutter in the boot just in case. 
Liquid Knight said:
Lucas North said:
Does that mean they're going to turn up and clamp any vehicle on the drive, or does it HAVE to be the one that's already been scrapped...
I do not know; I'm sure the DVLA have released all the vehicles registered to me to this company, but as all my cars are parked on private property there is no way they can be immobilised legally (I used to clamp cars as part of my job) without the land owners (my) permision. "Immobilization of Vehicles Act 2010". So they would have to ask me for right of access to clamp my car on my property (or the site manager at my place of work) so I can't see it happening. I'll keep my 9" cutter in the boot just in case. As far as I know this is the current position
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request)/wheel_clamp...
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1997/2439/conte...
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/2266/conte...
There is an exception to the power of removal which is for private property associated with a dwelling (e.g. a driveway, garage or allocated parking bay in respect of a house, maisonette, block of flats). Any old bit of private land or structure thereon won't cut it. In that case, if they can find it they can clamp and remove it. No permission from the landowner is required. Blocking their access will just mean they come back. This time with the BiB in tow.
If they can't find it (because you have squirreled it away somwewhere else) I am not sure what powers, if any, they have to force you to tell them where it is. I haven't checked. They won't get very far if it has been scrapped though!
Whether they could seize a vehicle other than the one to which the offence related is something else. I would have thought not, but logic doesn't always hold where the DVLA want their pound of flesh.
Liquid Knight said:
S.I.A Vehicle Immobilization changes as of April 2010. Thought it was actual law but turns out to be licencing guideline and civil stuff instead. 
My mistake.
Yep - Crime and Security Act 2010. My mistake. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/17/conten...
Enacted but St Theresa has yet to make any commencement orders.
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2010-10-11...
Section 42 - Licencing scheme
Amongst other things this provides sanctions against landowners who use unauthorised wheel clampers
Section 43 - Approval scheme
This appears to shift approval from organisations (contractors) to inviduals (persons)
Section 44 - Charges for release: appeals
This creates a mechanism to challenge charges. Presumably by creating a body similiar to PATAS/Traffic Penalty Tribunal which hear LA parking ticket cases. It's better than nothing, but it's an opportunity missed to follow the example set by Scotland.
All amending the Private Security Industry Act 2001.
It will all be meaningless unless the SIA starts getting its act together. How on earth LBS Enforcement ever got approval given the track record of the two directors defies belief. The need to make landowners accountable for the behaviour of their contractors is long overdue as well.
Adz The Rat said:
I was under the impression bailiffs couldnt be involved without a court order?
Am I wrong?
No, you are correct.Am I wrong?
The threatening letter received by the OP is from a debt collector. Philips are well knwown for their dubious tactics. At this stage (pre court) it will be their revenue collection arm Philips Collection Services Ltd who are doing the chasing. As the text makes clear they can do nothing to enforce without a CCJ. It will be interesting to see what they will do if/when the OP writes back saying the debt is in dispute. In any case involving a civil debt (which is precisely what this so-called penalty is, despite how the DVLA would like you to believe otherwise) the collector should refer it back to the creditor.
The OP would be unwise to ignore the letter. Play the game according to the rules. The DVLA work on the basis of intimdation and hope people will roll over. Most do for a quiet life which only encourages the faceless bureaucrats at Swansea. Their dubious tactics make far too much money for them to stop.
OP, which of their offices sent the letter, Darlington or Doncaster?
All of this crap about SORN. It's about time the whole thing was disbanded.
The Police have access to their various databases that show whether a vehicle is taxed, MoT'd or insured.
They extensively use ANPR today, and if a vehicle is spotted on an ANPR camera that's missing one of the three requirements, then a letter/visit is in order.
SORN is obsolete, the DfT should close it down and save the country the vast sum of money that it costs to administer the scheme.
The Police have access to their various databases that show whether a vehicle is taxed, MoT'd or insured.
They extensively use ANPR today, and if a vehicle is spotted on an ANPR camera that's missing one of the three requirements, then a letter/visit is in order.
SORN is obsolete, the DfT should close it down and save the country the vast sum of money that it costs to administer the scheme.
Okay here's draft 1
To whom it may concern,
I’m writing in reply to the letter sent by your collections department. Following my alleged failure to pay the Late Licensing Penalty imposed by the DVLA for a car that was disposed of over a year before the “SORN Penalty Notice” was issued and the DVLA were notified in full accordance to the law. You have been instructed to commence recovery procedures against myself despite the fact the issue has not been resolved with the DVLA.
Demanding that the outstanding monies be paid to you immediately is unreasonable and threatening me with; and I quote...
“You could be fined of up to £1000.00”
...is unfounded and an unlawful attempt to intimidate me into paying by suggesting that the failure to pay an alleged civil dispute could result in criminal charges being brought against me. This is totally untrue and an attempt to commit fraud by misrepresentation. Section two of the “Fraud Act 2006”.
Fraud by false representation
(1) A person is in breach of this section if he—
(a) Dishonestly makes a false representation, and
(b) Intends, by making the representation—
(i) To make a gain for himself or another, or
(ii) To cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.
(2) A representation is false if—
(a) It is untrue or misleading, and
(b) The person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.
(3) “Representation” means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to the state of mind of—
(a) The person making the representation, or
(b) Any other person.
(4) A representation may be express or implied.
(5) For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention).
“in full accordance to the law” was in reference to the Interpretation Act 1978 Section 7 as detailed below, I fully complied with the law by sending the V5 registration document to the DVLA on the date of the vehicles disposal by placing the V5 in a stamped, addressed envelope and placing it in the post box.
Interpretation Act 1978
Section 7
References to service by post.
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.
Your companies’ involvement with this issue is premature, unwarranted and at best unlawful. If you make any further demands or make any more threats against myself or personal property without an appropriate court order it will be reported to the Police and the Trading Standards Office.
Yours sincerely
The last paragraph is subject to change but the rest is there.
To whom it may concern,
I’m writing in reply to the letter sent by your collections department. Following my alleged failure to pay the Late Licensing Penalty imposed by the DVLA for a car that was disposed of over a year before the “SORN Penalty Notice” was issued and the DVLA were notified in full accordance to the law. You have been instructed to commence recovery procedures against myself despite the fact the issue has not been resolved with the DVLA.
Demanding that the outstanding monies be paid to you immediately is unreasonable and threatening me with; and I quote...
“You could be fined of up to £1000.00”
...is unfounded and an unlawful attempt to intimidate me into paying by suggesting that the failure to pay an alleged civil dispute could result in criminal charges being brought against me. This is totally untrue and an attempt to commit fraud by misrepresentation. Section two of the “Fraud Act 2006”.
Fraud by false representation
(1) A person is in breach of this section if he—
(a) Dishonestly makes a false representation, and
(b) Intends, by making the representation—
(i) To make a gain for himself or another, or
(ii) To cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.
(2) A representation is false if—
(a) It is untrue or misleading, and
(b) The person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.
(3) “Representation” means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to the state of mind of—
(a) The person making the representation, or
(b) Any other person.
(4) A representation may be express or implied.
(5) For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention).
“in full accordance to the law” was in reference to the Interpretation Act 1978 Section 7 as detailed below, I fully complied with the law by sending the V5 registration document to the DVLA on the date of the vehicles disposal by placing the V5 in a stamped, addressed envelope and placing it in the post box.
Interpretation Act 1978
Section 7
References to service by post.
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.
Your companies’ involvement with this issue is premature, unwarranted and at best unlawful. If you make any further demands or make any more threats against myself or personal property without an appropriate court order it will be reported to the Police and the Trading Standards Office.
Yours sincerely
The last paragraph is subject to change but the rest is there.
Edited for the grammar police
Edited by Liquid Knight on Wednesday 17th November 11:10
Or how about:
"Dear Sirs,
Thank you for your letter dated XXX. This fine is currently in dispute with the DVLA and has yet to be seen by a court of law. Therefore until this matter is completed I will not be paying any monies that may be alleged to be due.
I trust this concludes your involvement in this matter.
Yours,
LK."
No backs are then put up and you're more likely to get the reponse you want.
"Dear Sirs,
Thank you for your letter dated XXX. This fine is currently in dispute with the DVLA and has yet to be seen by a court of law. Therefore until this matter is completed I will not be paying any monies that may be alleged to be due.
I trust this concludes your involvement in this matter.
Yours,
LK."
No backs are then put up and you're more likely to get the reponse you want.
Alfa numeric said:
Or how about:
"Dear Sirs,
Thank you for your letter dated XXX. This fine is currently in dispute with the DVLA and has yet to be seen by a court of law. Therefore until this matter is completed I will not be paying any monies that may be alleged to be due.
I trust this concludes your involvement in this matter.
Yours,
LK."
No backs are then put up and you're more likely to get the reponse you want.
Much better. I'll save draft 1 in case I need a second letter. Thanks. "Dear Sirs,
Thank you for your letter dated XXX. This fine is currently in dispute with the DVLA and has yet to be seen by a court of law. Therefore until this matter is completed I will not be paying any monies that may be alleged to be due.
I trust this concludes your involvement in this matter.
Yours,
LK."
No backs are then put up and you're more likely to get the reponse you want.
The letter as I sent it......
Philips Specialist Bailiff & Debt Recovery Agents
PO Box231
Darlington
DL1 9GG
November 16th 2010
Your reference number
To whom it may concern,
Thank you for your letter dated 5th November 2010. This fine is currently in dispute with the DVLA and has yet to be seen by a court of law. Therefore until this matter is completed I will not be paying any monies that may be alleged to be due.
I trust this concludes your involvement in this matter.
Reply from the bailiffs today.
As writen......
Despite our previous correspondence you have failed to clear your arrears.
The amout that remains outstanding must be piad in full to Philips immediately. Failure to make full payment will result in your case being passed to our Enforcement department for further recovery procedures.
You MUST pay £80.00 in full by contacting Tel: 0844 800 4588 or by visiting www.homecoll.co.uk . If you ignore this demand for payment your vehicle may be wheel clamped in which case a release fee will be charged and a valid tax disc must be produced. You could be fined more than £1000.00.
Further payment options are found overleaf.
If you have already done so, and to prevent yourself incuring additional costs and a possible CountyCourtJudgment against you, you must pay this penalty and either tax the vehicle if you are using or keeping it on a public road or make a SORN (Statutory Off Road Notification) if it is being kept off road. You can do this online at [u]www.direct.gov.uk/taxdisc[/u] or by completing one of the forms previously sent to you. If you no longer have the vehicle you must pay the penalty and write to DVLA Swansea SA99 1AR telling them you have either sold, transfered, exported or scrapped it.
Philips Specialist Bailiff & Debt Recovery Agents
PO Box231
Darlington
DL1 9GG
November 16th 2010
Your reference number
To whom it may concern,
Thank you for your letter dated 5th November 2010. This fine is currently in dispute with the DVLA and has yet to be seen by a court of law. Therefore until this matter is completed I will not be paying any monies that may be alleged to be due.
I trust this concludes your involvement in this matter.
Reply from the bailiffs today.
As writen......
Despite our previous correspondence you have failed to clear your arrears.
The amout that remains outstanding must be piad in full to Philips immediately. Failure to make full payment will result in your case being passed to our Enforcement department for further recovery procedures.
You MUST pay £80.00 in full by contacting Tel: 0844 800 4588 or by visiting www.homecoll.co.uk . If you ignore this demand for payment your vehicle may be wheel clamped in which case a release fee will be charged and a valid tax disc must be produced. You could be fined more than £1000.00.
Further payment options are found overleaf.
If you have already done so, and to prevent yourself incuring additional costs and a possible CountyCourtJudgment against you, you must pay this penalty and either tax the vehicle if you are using or keeping it on a public road or make a SORN (Statutory Off Road Notification) if it is being kept off road. You can do this online at [u]www.direct.gov.uk/taxdisc[/u] or by completing one of the forms previously sent to you. If you no longer have the vehicle you must pay the penalty and write to DVLA Swansea SA99 1AR telling them you have either sold, transfered, exported or scrapped it.
Edited by Liquid Knight on Wednesday 8th December 20:09
davidjpowell said:
Point of order.
That's not a reply to your letter. That's a standard enforcement letter.
Would it make you feel better if I said that I have still heard nothing further from DVLA. Although am awaiting a V5, which seems to be taking some time....
Sent in reply to my polite letter telling them to sod off. So the next letter will be less polite. That's not a reply to your letter. That's a standard enforcement letter.
Would it make you feel better if I said that I have still heard nothing further from DVLA. Although am awaiting a V5, which seems to be taking some time....
Liquid Knight said:
The letter as I sent it......
Philips Specialist Bailiff & Debt Recovery Agents
PO Box231
Darlington
DL1 9GG
November 16th 2010
Your reference number
To whom it may concern,
Thank you for your letter dated 5th November 2010. This fine is currently in dispute with the DVLA and has yet to be seen by a court of law. Therefore until this matter is completed I will not be paying any monies that may be alleged to be due.
I trust this concludes your involvement in this matter.
Reply from the bailiffs today.
As writen......
Despite our previous correspondence you have failed to clear your arrears.
The amout that remains outstanding must be piad in full to Philips immediately. Failure to make full payment will result in your case being passed to our Enforcement department for further recovery procedures.
You MUST pay £80.00 in full by contacting Tel: 0844 800 4588 or by visiting www.homecoll.co.uk . If you ignore this demand for payment your vehicle may be wheel clamped in which case a release fee will be charged and a valid tax disc must be produced. You could be fined more than £1000.00.
Further payment options are found overleaf.
If you have already done so, and to prevent yourself incuring additional costs and a possible CountyCourtJudgment against you, you must pay this penalty and either tax the vehicle if you are using or keeping it on a public road or make a SORN (Statutory Off Road Notification) if it is being kept off road. You can do this online at [u]www.direct.gov.uk/taxdisc[/u] or by completing one of the forms previously sent to you. If you no longer have the vehicle you must pay the penalty and write to DVLA Swansea SA99 1AR telling them you have either sold, transfered, exported or scrapped it.
I'd been having more or less the same argument over a car I scrapped a while ago; when DVLA suddenly(a couple of years later!)decided I hadn't. Tried arguing with the DVLA by phone and e-mail, then by letter and got nowhere.Philips Specialist Bailiff & Debt Recovery Agents
PO Box231
Darlington
DL1 9GG
November 16th 2010
Your reference number
To whom it may concern,
Thank you for your letter dated 5th November 2010. This fine is currently in dispute with the DVLA and has yet to be seen by a court of law. Therefore until this matter is completed I will not be paying any monies that may be alleged to be due.
I trust this concludes your involvement in this matter.
Reply from the bailiffs today.
As writen......
Despite our previous correspondence you have failed to clear your arrears.
The amout that remains outstanding must be piad in full to Philips immediately. Failure to make full payment will result in your case being passed to our Enforcement department for further recovery procedures.
You MUST pay £80.00 in full by contacting Tel: 0844 800 4588 or by visiting www.homecoll.co.uk . If you ignore this demand for payment your vehicle may be wheel clamped in which case a release fee will be charged and a valid tax disc must be produced. You could be fined more than £1000.00.
Further payment options are found overleaf.
If you have already done so, and to prevent yourself incuring additional costs and a possible CountyCourtJudgment against you, you must pay this penalty and either tax the vehicle if you are using or keeping it on a public road or make a SORN (Statutory Off Road Notification) if it is being kept off road. You can do this online at [u]www.direct.gov.uk/taxdisc[/u] or by completing one of the forms previously sent to you. If you no longer have the vehicle you must pay the penalty and write to DVLA Swansea SA99 1AR telling them you have either sold, transfered, exported or scrapped it.
All letters from the idiots at Philips are bin food. They get bored after a while and stop sending them.
Rich
Philips Specialist Bailiff & Debt Recovery Agents
PO Box231
Darlington
DL1 9GG
December 14th 2010
Your reference number *******
To whom it may concern,
I’m writing in reply to a second letter sent by your collections department. Following my failure to pay an alleged Late Licensing Penalty imposed by the DVLA. As I outlined to you in my first reply this is an ongoing issue with the DVLA and your involvement is neither warranted and without a Crown Court order lawful.
Demanding that the outstanding monies be paid to you immediately is unreasonable and threatening me with; and I quote...
“You could be fined of up to £1000.00”
...is unfounded and an attempt to intimidate me into paying by suggesting that the failure to pay an alleged civil dispute could result in criminal charges being brought against me. This is totally untrue and an attempt to commit fraud by misrepresentation. Section two of the “Fraud Act 2006”.
Fraud by false representation
(1) A person is in breach of this section if he—
(a) Dishonestly makes a false representation, and
(b) Intends, by making the representation—
(i) To make a gain for himself or another, or
(ii) To cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.
(2) A representation is false if—
(a) It is untrue or misleading, and
(b) The person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.
(3) “Representation” means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to the state of mind of—
(a) The person making the representation, or
(b) Any other person.
(4) A representation may be express or implied.
(5) For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention).
If your company makes any further demands or make any more threats against myself or personal property without an appropriate court order to do so it will be reported to the Police and these actions will be outlined in court as an attempt to intimidate a witness.
Yours sincerely
Me!
Basically if it does go to court the DVLA have shot themselves in the foot by calling in the dogs too soon. Not that the DVLA have a chance of winning the case anyway. The DVLA postal guidlines are contary to the Interpretation Act and the DVLA is not above the law.
PO Box231
Darlington
DL1 9GG
December 14th 2010
Your reference number *******
To whom it may concern,
I’m writing in reply to a second letter sent by your collections department. Following my failure to pay an alleged Late Licensing Penalty imposed by the DVLA. As I outlined to you in my first reply this is an ongoing issue with the DVLA and your involvement is neither warranted and without a Crown Court order lawful.
Demanding that the outstanding monies be paid to you immediately is unreasonable and threatening me with; and I quote...
“You could be fined of up to £1000.00”
...is unfounded and an attempt to intimidate me into paying by suggesting that the failure to pay an alleged civil dispute could result in criminal charges being brought against me. This is totally untrue and an attempt to commit fraud by misrepresentation. Section two of the “Fraud Act 2006”.
Fraud by false representation
(1) A person is in breach of this section if he—
(a) Dishonestly makes a false representation, and
(b) Intends, by making the representation—
(i) To make a gain for himself or another, or
(ii) To cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.
(2) A representation is false if—
(a) It is untrue or misleading, and
(b) The person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.
(3) “Representation” means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to the state of mind of—
(a) The person making the representation, or
(b) Any other person.
(4) A representation may be express or implied.
(5) For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention).
If your company makes any further demands or make any more threats against myself or personal property without an appropriate court order to do so it will be reported to the Police and these actions will be outlined in court as an attempt to intimidate a witness.
Yours sincerely
Me!
Basically if it does go to court the DVLA have shot themselves in the foot by calling in the dogs too soon. Not that the DVLA have a chance of winning the case anyway. The DVLA postal guidlines are contary to the Interpretation Act and the DVLA is not above the law.
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