Nice letter to the DVLA?
Discussion
streaky said:
I have come to the following conclusions:
1) the OP is unable to accept good advice;
2) the OP cannot construct a cogent and carefully written letter;
3) the OP has such an issue with the DVLA that it has become an obsession, putting him in the "one-in-four" with a mental health problem.
I shall contribute no more, but will visit from time to time for my own amusement.
Streaky
Thank you for all the advice it's is very much appreciated. Alas however none of the previous letters acting on the advice have worked, short and direct or long winded the message will not go through to the DVLA and they are Hell bent on getting me to pay a fine (by any other name) for a crime I have not committed. Initially it was a minor irritation but now it has become a David vs Goliath battle that I will not give up on. Because I am right and the DVLA have been getting away with mugging millions out of people for far too long. 1) the OP is unable to accept good advice;
2) the OP cannot construct a cogent and carefully written letter;
3) the OP has such an issue with the DVLA that it has become an obsession, putting him in the "one-in-four" with a mental health problem.
I shall contribute no more, but will visit from time to time for my own amusement.
Streaky
Thank you for the link to the "Fraud Act 2006".
So it continues......
One last chance. Exactly as writen on here apart from personal details and a copy of the act attached to it for reference.
If it doesn't work this time then I'll try the other route.
It isn't just me; it's hundreds of thousands of people. It isn't just £40 or £80; it's millions.
If someone broke into your home and took £80 from the wallet you left in your kitchen and you caught them, what would you do?
1/ Beat the living crap out of them?
2/ Get a good descritpion and report them to the Police?
3/ Let them get away with it?
I realise the DVLA are just people trying to do a job but if their job involves stealing from honnest people then I sorry they deserve all stick and bad press they get.
If it doesn't work this time then I'll try the other route.
It isn't just me; it's hundreds of thousands of people. It isn't just £40 or £80; it's millions.
If someone broke into your home and took £80 from the wallet you left in your kitchen and you caught them, what would you do?
1/ Beat the living crap out of them?
2/ Get a good descritpion and report them to the Police?
3/ Let them get away with it?
I realise the DVLA are just people trying to do a job but if their job involves stealing from honnest people then I sorry they deserve all stick and bad press they get.
BPD said:
Just thought i'd end my hijack of the thread by saying that I have just had a letter from the DVLA dropping the issue. So thanks for the pointer with regard Interpretation. Oh and I also requested in the end that their witness attend court when I entered my not guilty plea.
Result chap. 
Be sure to send them a thank you card.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/event.php?eid=123843237...
Got this in the post today from Philips Specialist Bailif & Recovery Agents dated November 5th 2010
Following your failure to pay the Late Licencing Penalty imposed by the DVLA. we have been instructed to commence recovery procedures against you.
The amount which remains outstanding must be paid in full to Philips immediately. Failure to make full payment will result in your case being passed to our Enforcement department for further recovery procedures.
You MUST (block capitals and bold in the letter) pay £80 in full by contacting Tel:number or by visiting www.philips.org.uk . If you ignore this demand for payment your vehicle may be wheel clamped in which case a release fee will be charged and a valid tax disc must be produced. You could be fined more than £1000.00. Further payment options are found overleaf.
To to (exactly as writen) prevent yourself incuring additional costs and possible CountyCourtJudgment against you, you must pay this penalty and either tax the vehicle if you are using or keeping it on a public road or make a SORN (Statutory Off Road Notification) if it is being kept off the road. You can do this online at [u]www.direct.gov.uk/taxdisk[/u] or by completing one of the forms previously sent to you. If you no longer have the vehicle you must pay the penalty and write to the DVLA Swansea, SA99 1AR telling them you have either sold, transfered, exported or scrapped it.
Hmmmmmm
What do you guys think?
As far as I can see this is a unfounded threat and will treated as such.
Following your failure to pay the Late Licencing Penalty imposed by the DVLA. we have been instructed to commence recovery procedures against you.
The amount which remains outstanding must be paid in full to Philips immediately. Failure to make full payment will result in your case being passed to our Enforcement department for further recovery procedures.
You MUST (block capitals and bold in the letter) pay £80 in full by contacting Tel:number or by visiting www.philips.org.uk . If you ignore this demand for payment your vehicle may be wheel clamped in which case a release fee will be charged and a valid tax disc must be produced. You could be fined more than £1000.00. Further payment options are found overleaf.
To to (exactly as writen) prevent yourself incuring additional costs and possible CountyCourtJudgment against you, you must pay this penalty and either tax the vehicle if you are using or keeping it on a public road or make a SORN (Statutory Off Road Notification) if it is being kept off the road. You can do this online at [u]www.direct.gov.uk/taxdisk[/u] or by completing one of the forms previously sent to you. If you no longer have the vehicle you must pay the penalty and write to the DVLA Swansea, SA99 1AR telling them you have either sold, transfered, exported or scrapped it.
Hmmmmmm
What do you guys think?
As far as I can see this is a unfounded threat and will treated as such.
Lucas North said:
Does that mean they're going to turn up and clamp any vehicle on the drive, or does it HAVE to be the one that's already been scrapped...
I do not know; I'm sure the DVLA have released all the vehicles registered to me to this company, but as all my cars are parked on private property there is no way they can be immobilised legally (I used to clamp cars as part of my job) without the land owners (my) permision. "Immobilization of Vehicles Act 2010". So they would have to ask me for right of access to clamp my car on my property (or the site manager at my place of work) so I can't see it happening. I'll keep my 9" cutter in the boot just in case. Okay here's draft 1
To whom it may concern,
I’m writing in reply to the letter sent by your collections department. Following my alleged failure to pay the Late Licensing Penalty imposed by the DVLA for a car that was disposed of over a year before the “SORN Penalty Notice” was issued and the DVLA were notified in full accordance to the law. You have been instructed to commence recovery procedures against myself despite the fact the issue has not been resolved with the DVLA.
Demanding that the outstanding monies be paid to you immediately is unreasonable and threatening me with; and I quote...
“You could be fined of up to £1000.00”
...is unfounded and an unlawful attempt to intimidate me into paying by suggesting that the failure to pay an alleged civil dispute could result in criminal charges being brought against me. This is totally untrue and an attempt to commit fraud by misrepresentation. Section two of the “Fraud Act 2006”.
Fraud by false representation
(1) A person is in breach of this section if he—
(a) Dishonestly makes a false representation, and
(b) Intends, by making the representation—
(i) To make a gain for himself or another, or
(ii) To cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.
(2) A representation is false if—
(a) It is untrue or misleading, and
(b) The person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.
(3) “Representation” means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to the state of mind of—
(a) The person making the representation, or
(b) Any other person.
(4) A representation may be express or implied.
(5) For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention).
“in full accordance to the law” was in reference to the Interpretation Act 1978 Section 7 as detailed below, I fully complied with the law by sending the V5 registration document to the DVLA on the date of the vehicles disposal by placing the V5 in a stamped, addressed envelope and placing it in the post box.
Interpretation Act 1978
Section 7
References to service by post.
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.
Your companies’ involvement with this issue is premature, unwarranted and at best unlawful. If you make any further demands or make any more threats against myself or personal property without an appropriate court order it will be reported to the Police and the Trading Standards Office.
Yours sincerely
The last paragraph is subject to change but the rest is there.
To whom it may concern,
I’m writing in reply to the letter sent by your collections department. Following my alleged failure to pay the Late Licensing Penalty imposed by the DVLA for a car that was disposed of over a year before the “SORN Penalty Notice” was issued and the DVLA were notified in full accordance to the law. You have been instructed to commence recovery procedures against myself despite the fact the issue has not been resolved with the DVLA.
Demanding that the outstanding monies be paid to you immediately is unreasonable and threatening me with; and I quote...
“You could be fined of up to £1000.00”
...is unfounded and an unlawful attempt to intimidate me into paying by suggesting that the failure to pay an alleged civil dispute could result in criminal charges being brought against me. This is totally untrue and an attempt to commit fraud by misrepresentation. Section two of the “Fraud Act 2006”.
Fraud by false representation
(1) A person is in breach of this section if he—
(a) Dishonestly makes a false representation, and
(b) Intends, by making the representation—
(i) To make a gain for himself or another, or
(ii) To cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.
(2) A representation is false if—
(a) It is untrue or misleading, and
(b) The person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.
(3) “Representation” means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to the state of mind of—
(a) The person making the representation, or
(b) Any other person.
(4) A representation may be express or implied.
(5) For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention).
“in full accordance to the law” was in reference to the Interpretation Act 1978 Section 7 as detailed below, I fully complied with the law by sending the V5 registration document to the DVLA on the date of the vehicles disposal by placing the V5 in a stamped, addressed envelope and placing it in the post box.
Interpretation Act 1978
Section 7
References to service by post.
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.
Your companies’ involvement with this issue is premature, unwarranted and at best unlawful. If you make any further demands or make any more threats against myself or personal property without an appropriate court order it will be reported to the Police and the Trading Standards Office.
Yours sincerely
The last paragraph is subject to change but the rest is there.
Edited for the grammar police
Edited by Liquid Knight on Wednesday 17th November 11:10
Alfa numeric said:
Or how about:
"Dear Sirs,
Thank you for your letter dated XXX. This fine is currently in dispute with the DVLA and has yet to be seen by a court of law. Therefore until this matter is completed I will not be paying any monies that may be alleged to be due.
I trust this concludes your involvement in this matter.
Yours,
LK."
No backs are then put up and you're more likely to get the reponse you want.
Much better. I'll save draft 1 in case I need a second letter. Thanks. "Dear Sirs,
Thank you for your letter dated XXX. This fine is currently in dispute with the DVLA and has yet to be seen by a court of law. Therefore until this matter is completed I will not be paying any monies that may be alleged to be due.
I trust this concludes your involvement in this matter.
Yours,
LK."
No backs are then put up and you're more likely to get the reponse you want.
The letter as I sent it......
Philips Specialist Bailiff & Debt Recovery Agents
PO Box231
Darlington
DL1 9GG
November 16th 2010
Your reference number
To whom it may concern,
Thank you for your letter dated 5th November 2010. This fine is currently in dispute with the DVLA and has yet to be seen by a court of law. Therefore until this matter is completed I will not be paying any monies that may be alleged to be due.
I trust this concludes your involvement in this matter.
Reply from the bailiffs today.
As writen......
Despite our previous correspondence you have failed to clear your arrears.
The amout that remains outstanding must be piad in full to Philips immediately. Failure to make full payment will result in your case being passed to our Enforcement department for further recovery procedures.
You MUST pay £80.00 in full by contacting Tel: 0844 800 4588 or by visiting www.homecoll.co.uk . If you ignore this demand for payment your vehicle may be wheel clamped in which case a release fee will be charged and a valid tax disc must be produced. You could be fined more than £1000.00.
Further payment options are found overleaf.
If you have already done so, and to prevent yourself incuring additional costs and a possible CountyCourtJudgment against you, you must pay this penalty and either tax the vehicle if you are using or keeping it on a public road or make a SORN (Statutory Off Road Notification) if it is being kept off road. You can do this online at [u]www.direct.gov.uk/taxdisc[/u] or by completing one of the forms previously sent to you. If you no longer have the vehicle you must pay the penalty and write to DVLA Swansea SA99 1AR telling them you have either sold, transfered, exported or scrapped it.
Philips Specialist Bailiff & Debt Recovery Agents
PO Box231
Darlington
DL1 9GG
November 16th 2010
Your reference number
To whom it may concern,
Thank you for your letter dated 5th November 2010. This fine is currently in dispute with the DVLA and has yet to be seen by a court of law. Therefore until this matter is completed I will not be paying any monies that may be alleged to be due.
I trust this concludes your involvement in this matter.
Reply from the bailiffs today.
As writen......
Despite our previous correspondence you have failed to clear your arrears.
The amout that remains outstanding must be piad in full to Philips immediately. Failure to make full payment will result in your case being passed to our Enforcement department for further recovery procedures.
You MUST pay £80.00 in full by contacting Tel: 0844 800 4588 or by visiting www.homecoll.co.uk . If you ignore this demand for payment your vehicle may be wheel clamped in which case a release fee will be charged and a valid tax disc must be produced. You could be fined more than £1000.00.
Further payment options are found overleaf.
If you have already done so, and to prevent yourself incuring additional costs and a possible CountyCourtJudgment against you, you must pay this penalty and either tax the vehicle if you are using or keeping it on a public road or make a SORN (Statutory Off Road Notification) if it is being kept off road. You can do this online at [u]www.direct.gov.uk/taxdisc[/u] or by completing one of the forms previously sent to you. If you no longer have the vehicle you must pay the penalty and write to DVLA Swansea SA99 1AR telling them you have either sold, transfered, exported or scrapped it.
Edited by Liquid Knight on Wednesday 8th December 20:09
davidjpowell said:
Point of order.
That's not a reply to your letter. That's a standard enforcement letter.
Would it make you feel better if I said that I have still heard nothing further from DVLA. Although am awaiting a V5, which seems to be taking some time....
Sent in reply to my polite letter telling them to sod off. So the next letter will be less polite. That's not a reply to your letter. That's a standard enforcement letter.
Would it make you feel better if I said that I have still heard nothing further from DVLA. Although am awaiting a V5, which seems to be taking some time....
Philips Specialist Bailiff & Debt Recovery Agents
PO Box231
Darlington
DL1 9GG
December 14th 2010
Your reference number *******
To whom it may concern,
I’m writing in reply to a second letter sent by your collections department. Following my failure to pay an alleged Late Licensing Penalty imposed by the DVLA. As I outlined to you in my first reply this is an ongoing issue with the DVLA and your involvement is neither warranted and without a Crown Court order lawful.
Demanding that the outstanding monies be paid to you immediately is unreasonable and threatening me with; and I quote...
“You could be fined of up to £1000.00”
...is unfounded and an attempt to intimidate me into paying by suggesting that the failure to pay an alleged civil dispute could result in criminal charges being brought against me. This is totally untrue and an attempt to commit fraud by misrepresentation. Section two of the “Fraud Act 2006”.
Fraud by false representation
(1) A person is in breach of this section if he—
(a) Dishonestly makes a false representation, and
(b) Intends, by making the representation—
(i) To make a gain for himself or another, or
(ii) To cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.
(2) A representation is false if—
(a) It is untrue or misleading, and
(b) The person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.
(3) “Representation” means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to the state of mind of—
(a) The person making the representation, or
(b) Any other person.
(4) A representation may be express or implied.
(5) For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention).
If your company makes any further demands or make any more threats against myself or personal property without an appropriate court order to do so it will be reported to the Police and these actions will be outlined in court as an attempt to intimidate a witness.
Yours sincerely
Me!
Basically if it does go to court the DVLA have shot themselves in the foot by calling in the dogs too soon. Not that the DVLA have a chance of winning the case anyway. The DVLA postal guidlines are contary to the Interpretation Act and the DVLA is not above the law.
PO Box231
Darlington
DL1 9GG
December 14th 2010
Your reference number *******
To whom it may concern,
I’m writing in reply to a second letter sent by your collections department. Following my failure to pay an alleged Late Licensing Penalty imposed by the DVLA. As I outlined to you in my first reply this is an ongoing issue with the DVLA and your involvement is neither warranted and without a Crown Court order lawful.
Demanding that the outstanding monies be paid to you immediately is unreasonable and threatening me with; and I quote...
“You could be fined of up to £1000.00”
...is unfounded and an attempt to intimidate me into paying by suggesting that the failure to pay an alleged civil dispute could result in criminal charges being brought against me. This is totally untrue and an attempt to commit fraud by misrepresentation. Section two of the “Fraud Act 2006”.
Fraud by false representation
(1) A person is in breach of this section if he—
(a) Dishonestly makes a false representation, and
(b) Intends, by making the representation—
(i) To make a gain for himself or another, or
(ii) To cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.
(2) A representation is false if—
(a) It is untrue or misleading, and
(b) The person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.
(3) “Representation” means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to the state of mind of—
(a) The person making the representation, or
(b) Any other person.
(4) A representation may be express or implied.
(5) For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention).
If your company makes any further demands or make any more threats against myself or personal property without an appropriate court order to do so it will be reported to the Police and these actions will be outlined in court as an attempt to intimidate a witness.
Yours sincerely
Me!
Basically if it does go to court the DVLA have shot themselves in the foot by calling in the dogs too soon. Not that the DVLA have a chance of winning the case anyway. The DVLA postal guidlines are contary to the Interpretation Act and the DVLA is not above the law.
davidjpowell said:
Point of order.
That's not a reply to your letter. That's a standard enforcement letter.
Does come across as generic and possibly an automated reply but.....That's not a reply to your letter. That's a standard enforcement letter.
thefraudact2006 said:
(5) For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention).
Edited by Liquid Knight on Tuesday 14th December 13:24
Variomatic said:
NO, you did [u]NOT[/u] forward the V5 to the new owner to complete. The Regulations (which are set by the Government, btw, not the DVLA) make it your legal responsibility to notify DVLA of the change and that's what you did.
If the V5 wasn't present (it was probably slipped down one of the seats in the car or something) then you wrote to them giving the new keeper's details - so you notified them "otherwise in writing" according to your obligation under the regs. The fact they never received your letter is the bit that's not your responsibility.
The DVLA disregard lost communications as the senders responsibility and state that the DVLAs acknowledgement letter is irrefutable evidence of them recieving the letter in the first place. No letter from the DVLA means whatever evidence you produce in your defence you are guilty and they want their twenty pieces of silver. They will also pursue it relentlessly because they £22,000,000 of profit they made last year to spend doing so. If the V5 wasn't present (it was probably slipped down one of the seats in the car or something) then you wrote to them giving the new keeper's details - so you notified them "otherwise in writing" according to your obligation under the regs. The fact they never received your letter is the bit that's not your responsibility.
You are guilty until proven innocent but because the DVLA is not a court guilty anyway.
kingmoosa said:
Not sure exactly what it refers to but I'm presuming it's similar to this, a few weeks ago in my local paper, I saw in the 'court roundup' section, several cases found guilty of 'failing to notify...' I think with regards to V5's and DVLA. I'll try and find the section again and post the excact details.
You do occaisionally get a bunch of these in the local press. "Found guilty in their absence" due to the DVLA not issuing summonses. 
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