Lotus 7 Club - is it worth it?
Discussion
PhilipRJ said:
rubystone said:
Philip, that doesn't stop you coming to the meetings. Not all attendees are club members. And if you read the 'pamphlet' you'll learn how close the club is to CC and how they help them out.
Your post suggested that these were reasons, not opinions, as to why you hadn't joined the club. I'd love you to come along to The Hare and I'd love you to join the club. I'lm happy to pay for a year's membership for you. I have you down as living in Saffron Walden, right?
Thank you for your kind offer to pay my membership fee but you don't need to do that.Your post suggested that these were reasons, not opinions, as to why you hadn't joined the club. I'd love you to come along to The Hare and I'd love you to join the club. I'lm happy to pay for a year's membership for you. I have you down as living in Saffron Walden, right?
I live in Chicago now ... which is why the pamphlet isn't any use.
I was a member. I have a Caterham.
I have been to meetings at the Hare first as a non member and then as a member ... although the Breakfast Club is more fun.
My post was in response to the "what changes would make you rejoin", those were my opinions.
PhilipRJ said:
Thank you for your kind offer to pay my membership fee but you don't need to do that.
I live in Chicago now ... which is why the pamphlet isn't any use.
I was a member. I have a Caterham.
I have been to meetings at the Hare first as a non member and then as a member ... although the Breakfast Club is more fun.
My post was in response to the "what changes would make you rejoin", those were my opinions.
Ok. Offer stands if/when you're back I live in Chicago now ... which is why the pamphlet isn't any use.
I was a member. I have a Caterham.
I have been to meetings at the Hare first as a non member and then as a member ... although the Breakfast Club is more fun.
My post was in response to the "what changes would make you rejoin", those were my opinions.
Helluvaname said:
Hi Kenny,
I think we're getting better at communication, but can always improve, however time is always pressing.
I don't nor do a lot of other members who aren't happy about the lack of communication from the MT on the current forum. Time may be pressing and you do have a life outside of the L7C but sometimes the silence is deafening.I think we're getting better at communication, but can always improve, however time is always pressing.
Hi Kenny (and others), forgive me for quoting your post and replying in bits, but I'm still flat out with other stuff, so here goes:
There are often comments (mainly on here) that BC has become too sanitised and members can't have frank discussions with differing opinions as they would down the pub - however, you've cited an example when this does happen, albeit that some peoples opinions differ widely! (I don't believe any comments were moderated?).
As for the site being less active, I don't have the stats, but I do know it appears much less active when not logged in (ie to non-members), and that's one of the things I've asked to be looked at as it gives an unreasonable and false impression of the activity to non-members.
I also preferred the old forum, although the separate sites (and log-ins) for blatchat, club website (eg deals & discounts and other stuff), 7FAQ, and the members uploads (blogs, pictures etc), was always being moaned about, and needed to be combined. The old sites were all set up and maintained by one person, and although I am amazed at the amount of time and effort he put into them, they were still by their nature bespoke, and reliant on him not being run over by a bus etc.
If I've read it correctly, you used to be heavily involved in the Sprinting side of the Club, and not much else; more recently your main interest was Blatchat.
For some members Blatchat is the main involvement with the Club, but similarly for others it's mainly Sprinting, or social meetings/events, or the magazine, etc.
I don't have the figures but from memory the active posters on Blatchat (ie those members who post more than a few times a year) was around 10% of the membership, so whilst it is (rightly) very important to them, it isn't the be-all-and-end-all of the club for by far the majority of members. That's not to say it isn't important, and is why we're spending a lot of time and effort on it.
That aside, it was felt that many members weren't getting the most from the Club by only accessing Blatchat, and not the main Club site (where the members deals & discounts, news, events info, etc were held (this was evidenced by the relatively small number of members registered in the members Area for example). This was partly due to needing a separate logins, but it appeared that some members weren't even aware of what was on the main Club site, and mistakenly believed that the Club site was Blatchat (the forum).
Consequently the aim of the new site was to unite all the Clubs web presence in one place, and allow members to access ALL the Club info with one login, and this should have the benefit of allowing members to gain the most from their membership. Also, when the search facility is working properly, it will search all the site content, so tech searches for example will bring up results from Techtalk, 7FAQ, User Guides, Wiki's, Blogs, etc.
So in answer to your question (eventually!) the forum on it's own isn't as important as the Club site as a whole, but it is an integral part of it.
BTW there is an an increasing library of User and Technical Guides available in the Members Area that we are hoping to expand on further as time goes on.
To produce Low Flying costs a finite (significant) amount, and that amount varies quite insignificantly with the print volume. I think we currently print around 2500 copies, and even if this were to halve, the cost would still be quite similar as not only is the print run set up cost the same, the editorial and production costs remain the same. In addition it may actually become less attractive to the advertisers due to reduced circulation, and therefore the net cost could even rise.
The second factor is administration. There would be a significant (and many would say unnecessary) increase in admin costs to the Club to manage different levels of subscription, access rights, postal databases, etc for 2500 members.
The third factor is once we go down that path, how many 'tiers' do we have? Full, No Low Flying, No Forum access, Forum access only, Sprinting only, Event Access, any combination of these and others? This brings up other issues such as who has access to Tech Info, Club discounts, etc, and the administration costs alone could cost the Club so much that the subscriptions would have to rise to unacceptable levels to cover it.
Personally I think the tank of fuel analogy (it wasn't intended as a snipe) is valid as it puts into perspective the value of a years Club membership with respect to something that we can use up in a couple of days.
Yes, leaving the Club doesn't cost you the good friends you've made, but that also emphasises that you've made those friends as part of the Club.
Agreed some Insurance companies don't ask for proof of current Club membership at renewal. Having said that, if they found you were knowingly giving false info in an application then I'm not sure what their reaction would be!
Posting ideas has always been encouraged, and indeed you can always email the MT directly with any ideas, suggestions or offers. It is sometimes suggested that Blatchat is over-moderated, and I'm not sure that is true, however I have been asking for a visible note of when a post or thread has been moderated for some time (and will continue to do so!) as I believe it will emphasise what little there is.
I'm afraid I don't think "Orange Blatchat" (a colour scheme which some people moaned about as well) will return I'm afraid, but I do think the new forum will improve, and similarly I don't think that tiered membership is viable. Having said that, I do think we could canvas the members on what they would like to see from the Club (but naturally you'd need to be a member to participate in and influence that).
Finally, on the DD discount, it is a discount for using DD as a payment method, not a surcharge or penalty for not using it. This is simply because it costs the Club significantly less to process payments and renew memberships by DD than by other means. It's not an uncommon, and in my personal view not unreasonable, practice and is in common use by energy companies for example for a similar reason.
I hope you, and other ex or yet to be, members will give the Club a try as personally I think it is well worthwhile.
FWIW I volunteered to help run the Club as I felt that I could contribute something for the benefit of other members; I don't get paid for it, and to be honest the crap that gets flung around in an "us and them" manner sometimes makes me wonder why I bother, but as long as I'm able to contribute to what I see as improving the Club for everyone then I'll continue to be part of the MT.
Cheers
kenny.R400 said:
" I'd still be interested to hear from others what they would like to see in order to join/rejoin. "
Thanks for that, maybe this is a start.
Here's what I'd like to see happen for what its worth.
I'd let my membership slip for a while due to things happening in the real world and simply never got around to joining again.
I've still got a 7 and decided to rejoin when we got back from holiday earlier this year, but that was just as the new site had gone live.
I'll admit I looked at the new site and didn't like its layout one little bit, as it seems many others didn't.
What annoyed me in all brutal honesty was the way existing and long standing members were being chastised for airing their views about this, sometimes in quite rude exchanges, it was as though it was a real case of "like it or f*ck off".
I don't think anyone from the MT feels like that (well not in those terms) but I know those club members involved with developing the new site were getting very despondent at the negative comments when they were doing their best to improve it (and a lot of the issues weren't of their making). Thanks for that, maybe this is a start.
Here's what I'd like to see happen for what its worth.
I'd let my membership slip for a while due to things happening in the real world and simply never got around to joining again.
I've still got a 7 and decided to rejoin when we got back from holiday earlier this year, but that was just as the new site had gone live.
I'll admit I looked at the new site and didn't like its layout one little bit, as it seems many others didn't.
What annoyed me in all brutal honesty was the way existing and long standing members were being chastised for airing their views about this, sometimes in quite rude exchanges, it was as though it was a real case of "like it or f*ck off".
There are often comments (mainly on here) that BC has become too sanitised and members can't have frank discussions with differing opinions as they would down the pub - however, you've cited an example when this does happen, albeit that some peoples opinions differ widely! (I don't believe any comments were moderated?).
kenny.R400 said:
With reports of a not fit for purpose search facility and other major flaws I thought it best to hang fire with rejoining and see how it pans out.
It seems to me much is still the same abeit with dwindling participation on the BC forum, I may be wrong here but that's how it's still coming across.ie as a works in progress forum and a far cry from old.
As I understand it the priorities that members are working with the suppliers on are to improve the speed, and then sort out the search. I gather they were both ok on the test site but for reasons beyond me they aren't on the "live" site. I do know that they are actively being worked on, and I believe some significant results should be evident soon.It seems to me much is still the same abeit with dwindling participation on the BC forum, I may be wrong here but that's how it's still coming across.ie as a works in progress forum and a far cry from old.
As for the site being less active, I don't have the stats, but I do know it appears much less active when not logged in (ie to non-members), and that's one of the things I've asked to be looked at as it gives an unreasonable and false impression of the activity to non-members.
I also preferred the old forum, although the separate sites (and log-ins) for blatchat, club website (eg deals & discounts and other stuff), 7FAQ, and the members uploads (blogs, pictures etc), was always being moaned about, and needed to be combined. The old sites were all set up and maintained by one person, and although I am amazed at the amount of time and effort he put into them, they were still by their nature bespoke, and reliant on him not being run over by a bus etc.
kenny.R400 said:
Just to scotch a couple of myths (on my part anyway). We're always told when we/they have a grumble about things is that Blatchat (the forum) is only part of the club, the thing is though I reckon it's a big part of the club for some and rightly so..
Let's face it what else is there of huge value apart from being part of a great community and having access to the best 7 data base on the planet, that is good enough for me anyway.
At the height of my sprinting and hill climbing days I never did club events so had no interest in that side of things even then, being up north there was more going on by joining a local Motor club and doing their events, but I kept up my dues and continued being a member.
To be fair I think your experiences with the Club illustrate the diversity of what members feel is important to them individually.Let's face it what else is there of huge value apart from being part of a great community and having access to the best 7 data base on the planet, that is good enough for me anyway.
At the height of my sprinting and hill climbing days I never did club events so had no interest in that side of things even then, being up north there was more going on by joining a local Motor club and doing their events, but I kept up my dues and continued being a member.
If I've read it correctly, you used to be heavily involved in the Sprinting side of the Club, and not much else; more recently your main interest was Blatchat.
For some members Blatchat is the main involvement with the Club, but similarly for others it's mainly Sprinting, or social meetings/events, or the magazine, etc.
I don't have the figures but from memory the active posters on Blatchat (ie those members who post more than a few times a year) was around 10% of the membership, so whilst it is (rightly) very important to them, it isn't the be-all-and-end-all of the club for by far the majority of members. That's not to say it isn't important, and is why we're spending a lot of time and effort on it.
kenny.R400 said:
I would NEVER search the data base free of charge, when finding that all important oil filter number, or the cam timing for a 244 I was always a paid up member, a pride thing really. Also loved the debate and chat on there and the help that was always available on anything and everything.
I now really fail to see why the emphasis seems to be on this new club site and members area, what info is in that that can't be gleaned from LF or my mates already in the club, I may and probably am in the minority here but I'd have thought the BC forum was more important than the "club site", is it not anymore?
I agree that the existing data, help and assistance (on virtually any subject!) that is available via the forum is invaluable, and I'm glad to hear you feel it morally right to be a member to take advantage of it, although that does seem slightly at odds when you say you can glean info from Low Flying (sent to members only) and other mates in the Club. I now really fail to see why the emphasis seems to be on this new club site and members area, what info is in that that can't be gleaned from LF or my mates already in the club, I may and probably am in the minority here but I'd have thought the BC forum was more important than the "club site", is it not anymore?
That aside, it was felt that many members weren't getting the most from the Club by only accessing Blatchat, and not the main Club site (where the members deals & discounts, news, events info, etc were held (this was evidenced by the relatively small number of members registered in the members Area for example). This was partly due to needing a separate logins, but it appeared that some members weren't even aware of what was on the main Club site, and mistakenly believed that the Club site was Blatchat (the forum).
Consequently the aim of the new site was to unite all the Clubs web presence in one place, and allow members to access ALL the Club info with one login, and this should have the benefit of allowing members to gain the most from their membership. Also, when the search facility is working properly, it will search all the site content, so tech searches for example will bring up results from Techtalk, 7FAQ, User Guides, Wiki's, Blogs, etc.
So in answer to your question (eventually!) the forum on it's own isn't as important as the Club site as a whole, but it is an integral part of it.
BTW there is an an increasing library of User and Technical Guides available in the Members Area that we are hoping to expand on further as time goes on.
kenny.R400 said:
One idea to see what members think is more important is maybe to revisit the old much talked about 2 tier membership? This time make it 50 quid for access to everything, or £30 for BC only and no access to the main forum, again just an idea which may tempt members back, I don't know.
Tiered or pick-n-mix membership has been discussed at MT meetings for many years. After much discussion and investigations into the feasibility, it always comes out that it isn't viable. This is for a number of reasons, and without going back through hundreds of pages of Minutes, I believe it boils down to a few main factors:To produce Low Flying costs a finite (significant) amount, and that amount varies quite insignificantly with the print volume. I think we currently print around 2500 copies, and even if this were to halve, the cost would still be quite similar as not only is the print run set up cost the same, the editorial and production costs remain the same. In addition it may actually become less attractive to the advertisers due to reduced circulation, and therefore the net cost could even rise.
The second factor is administration. There would be a significant (and many would say unnecessary) increase in admin costs to the Club to manage different levels of subscription, access rights, postal databases, etc for 2500 members.
The third factor is once we go down that path, how many 'tiers' do we have? Full, No Low Flying, No Forum access, Forum access only, Sprinting only, Event Access, any combination of these and others? This brings up other issues such as who has access to Tech Info, Club discounts, etc, and the administration costs alone could cost the Club so much that the subscriptions would have to rise to unacceptable levels to cover it.
kenny.R400 said:
I also don't believe the often used snipe of "club membership only costs the same as a tank of fuel" as relevant. Nobody who joins is skint but they do have certain in built thoughts which de-cipher value for money.
It's harsh to say but not being a club member does not cost you the good friends you've made over the years, insurance co's don't ask for your membership every year so why should I join?
The reason is because I'd like to once more for old times sake, especially if it were a true club once more where you could forward ideas without a b
king as hopefully this thread is now proving.
For me, and only me to join up now, I'd like to see orange BC brought back with it's full data base as an interim. I'd like to see 2 tier membership debated amongst the members and finally I'd like not to be penalised if I don't want to take out a DD for payment.
Running out of time again, but in summary of the above points; It's harsh to say but not being a club member does not cost you the good friends you've made over the years, insurance co's don't ask for your membership every year so why should I join?
The reason is because I'd like to once more for old times sake, especially if it were a true club once more where you could forward ideas without a b
king as hopefully this thread is now proving.For me, and only me to join up now, I'd like to see orange BC brought back with it's full data base as an interim. I'd like to see 2 tier membership debated amongst the members and finally I'd like not to be penalised if I don't want to take out a DD for payment.
Personally I think the tank of fuel analogy (it wasn't intended as a snipe) is valid as it puts into perspective the value of a years Club membership with respect to something that we can use up in a couple of days.
Yes, leaving the Club doesn't cost you the good friends you've made, but that also emphasises that you've made those friends as part of the Club.
Agreed some Insurance companies don't ask for proof of current Club membership at renewal. Having said that, if they found you were knowingly giving false info in an application then I'm not sure what their reaction would be!
Posting ideas has always been encouraged, and indeed you can always email the MT directly with any ideas, suggestions or offers. It is sometimes suggested that Blatchat is over-moderated, and I'm not sure that is true, however I have been asking for a visible note of when a post or thread has been moderated for some time (and will continue to do so!) as I believe it will emphasise what little there is.
I'm afraid I don't think "Orange Blatchat" (a colour scheme which some people moaned about as well) will return I'm afraid, but I do think the new forum will improve, and similarly I don't think that tiered membership is viable. Having said that, I do think we could canvas the members on what they would like to see from the Club (but naturally you'd need to be a member to participate in and influence that).
Finally, on the DD discount, it is a discount for using DD as a payment method, not a surcharge or penalty for not using it. This is simply because it costs the Club significantly less to process payments and renew memberships by DD than by other means. It's not an uncommon, and in my personal view not unreasonable, practice and is in common use by energy companies for example for a similar reason.
kenny.R400 said:
Sorry for the long post, it's always easier face to face on things like this.
No worries, and I agree it is easier face to face, and much less likely for comments to be misunderstood (or subsequently taken out of context). I hope you, and other ex or yet to be, members will give the Club a try as personally I think it is well worthwhile.
FWIW I volunteered to help run the Club as I felt that I could contribute something for the benefit of other members; I don't get paid for it, and to be honest the crap that gets flung around in an "us and them" manner sometimes makes me wonder why I bother, but as long as I'm able to contribute to what I see as improving the Club for everyone then I'll continue to be part of the MT.
Cheers
Edited by Helluvaname on Wednesday 31st December 14:42
Edited by Helluvaname on Wednesday 31st December 14:44
Edited by Helluvaname on Wednesday 31st December 14:55
A mate has just phoned me to say this discussion (or at least some of it) has been posted on BC.
Keep me posted on how it goes fellas as I can't see it. I also obviously can't comment further either over there.
I thought it was a PH discussion, and gave my own thoughts when asked for them.
However so be it.
Keep me posted on how it goes fellas as I can't see it. I also obviously can't comment further either over there.
I thought it was a PH discussion, and gave my own thoughts when asked for them.
However so be it.
kenny.R400 said:
A mate has just phoned me to say this discussion (or at least some of it) has been posted on BC.
Keep me posted on how it goes fellas as I can't see it. I also obviously can't comment further either over there.
I thought it was a PH discussion, and gave my own thoughts when asked for them.
However so be it.
Kenny, I've simply copied my reply to you above on Blatchat in the spirirt of open communications, as there may be bits of info in my reply that Club members might not be aware of.Keep me posted on how it goes fellas as I can't see it. I also obviously can't comment further either over there.
I thought it was a PH discussion, and gave my own thoughts when asked for them.
However so be it.
You, and anyone else, can see the thread here and I'm happy to continue the discussion here (time permitting) so hope you're ok with that?
Helluvaname said:
For some members Blatchat is the main involvement with the Club, but similarly for others it's mainly Sprinting, or social meetings/events, or the magazine, etc.
I don't have the figures but from memory the active posters on Blatchat (ie those members who post more than a few times a year) was around 10% of the membership, so whilst it is (rightly) very important to them, it isn't the be-all-and-end-all of the club for by far the majority of members.
I'm not sure that is the best way to measure such a thing. A very small percentage of the membership actively contributes to Low Flying, but I am sure those who do not contribute to it regularly (if at all) still place some value in receiving the magazine each month.I don't have the figures but from memory the active posters on Blatchat (ie those members who post more than a few times a year) was around 10% of the membership, so whilst it is (rightly) very important to them, it isn't the be-all-and-end-all of the club for by far the majority of members.
Cheers for your efforts! I have been trying to offer only points that may be helpful to sorting out the new forum. Back in Autumn, I felt certain the issues would be worked out before the end of the year, and have been surprised that it has taken so long. I have no insight into the complexity of the problem, but it would appear it is beyond what any of us thought it would have been. Best of luck, and hang in there, sir!
kenny.R400 said:
A mate has just phoned me to say this discussion (or at least some of it) has been posted on BC.
Keep me posted on how it goes fellas as I can't see it. I also obviously can't comment further either over there.
I thought it was a PH discussion, and gave my own thoughts when asked for them.
However so be it.
Kenny as can be seen above it was a genuine attempt to communicate and I'm glad it was made. Keep me posted on how it goes fellas as I can't see it. I also obviously can't comment further either over there.
I thought it was a PH discussion, and gave my own thoughts when asked for them.
However so be it.
[quote=IBDAET]
But it must be pointed out that the great job was done when the trip was run by an independent company. When it was handed to Club Members to run two of them started embezeling funds, and when the CLub took it over fully they ran it into the ground due to their poor management - giving away valuable assets and contracts etc.
This same poor management is why the Club is in the state its in today.
But the problme it has is just the same as other larger car clubs. The Westfield CLub has exactly the same issues, so much so the local Area Organiser to me has divorced his meetings association with their club and its not run as an independent kit car club. [/quote ]
Did you ever raise the issues of embezlement with the police , this is very serious and As you have been mentioning it for so many years it must be worth the Fraud Squad investigating the whole situation
But it must be pointed out that the great job was done when the trip was run by an independent company. When it was handed to Club Members to run two of them started embezeling funds, and when the CLub took it over fully they ran it into the ground due to their poor management - giving away valuable assets and contracts etc.
This same poor management is why the Club is in the state its in today.
But the problme it has is just the same as other larger car clubs. The Westfield CLub has exactly the same issues, so much so the local Area Organiser to me has divorced his meetings association with their club and its not run as an independent kit car club. [/quote ]
Did you ever raise the issues of embezlement with the police , this is very serious and As you have been mentioning it for so many years it must be worth the Fraud Squad investigating the whole situation
Edited by Delbert on Wednesday 31st December 23:52
No Delbert. The bank cashed the cheques which were presented with the signatures of the offenders. These did not follow the approved signatory protocol on the bank account. They (the Bank) were the custodians of the money, so they were threatened with legal action until they reinstated the unauthorised payments. It was up to them to take criminal proceedings if they felt it necessary. For a few thousand pounds I'm sure they had more important things to worry about.
Ahh, it could only happen regarding BC/L7C
from...
from...
orangeknight said:
As the title really... I've been thinking of joining but fail to see any major benefits of doing so other than 10% or so off here and there and magazine and £50 is pretty steep! - can anyone convince me otherwise
O.K
to...O.K
IBDAET said:
When it was handed to Club Members to run two of them started embezeling funds
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