1990 Caterham HPC?
Discussion
Hello
I am new here.
I want to buy a Caterham.
I found this one, it looks like a 1990 HPC but the engine is a 2.0L Cosworth with 2 Weber carburators (attachment).
I can't find anything about a HPC with Cosworth engine, only about HPC with 2.0L Vauxhall and Opel engines.
Can anyone tell me if this is genuine HPC, and if it really was build/sold with a cosworth 2.0L 16V DOHC engine.
btw they claim its 2.0, i haven't seen it myself, so could it be less.... ?
The price the owner asks is about 7500 Pounds, if you look at the enginecompartment on the picture it shows the general state of the car.
Should i buy it for that money ?
Thx, Henk
Picture of the Cosworth engine in question http://thumbsnap.com/sc/e3OmkcGy.jpg
I am new here.
I want to buy a Caterham.
I found this one, it looks like a 1990 HPC but the engine is a 2.0L Cosworth with 2 Weber carburators (attachment).
I can't find anything about a HPC with Cosworth engine, only about HPC with 2.0L Vauxhall and Opel engines.
Can anyone tell me if this is genuine HPC, and if it really was build/sold with a cosworth 2.0L 16V DOHC engine.
btw they claim its 2.0, i haven't seen it myself, so could it be less.... ?
The price the owner asks is about 7500 Pounds, if you look at the enginecompartment on the picture it shows the general state of the car.
Should i buy it for that money ?
Thx, Henk
Picture of the Cosworth engine in question http://thumbsnap.com/sc/e3OmkcGy.jpg
It's unlikey to be an HPC and no, Caterham never sold Sevens with that engine. Early HPCs had BDR units and the later (circa 1990 onwards) had the C20XE Vauxhall engine.
The chassis number will give some clues. Genuine HPC's have an H as the 7th digit denoting chassis type (note this is only post 1990). More info can be found here http://7faq.com/owbase/ow.asp?ChassisNumbers
Often people bought Sevens wihtout an engine - the chassis will state engine configuration of 'NS' i.e. Engine Not Supplied (chassis digits 8 and 9) - and sourced and fitted their own units. This is the likely story of the one you are looking at.
Worth noting that even if someone bought a Seven from the factory without an engine and sourced their own C20XE Vauxhall units it would still not be a true HPC.
£7500 for any sound Seven is good value I would reckon as long as you know and are happy with what you are buying.
Cheers
SS
The chassis number will give some clues. Genuine HPC's have an H as the 7th digit denoting chassis type (note this is only post 1990). More info can be found here http://7faq.com/owbase/ow.asp?ChassisNumbers
Often people bought Sevens wihtout an engine - the chassis will state engine configuration of 'NS' i.e. Engine Not Supplied (chassis digits 8 and 9) - and sourced and fitted their own units. This is the likely story of the one you are looking at.
Worth noting that even if someone bought a Seven from the factory without an engine and sourced their own C20XE Vauxhall units it would still not be a true HPC.
£7500 for any sound Seven is good value I would reckon as long as you know and are happy with what you are buying.
Cheers
SS
Edited by snapper seven on Tuesday 22 January 13:04
Hello Caterham experts.
Thank you for your reply's.
Also got a direct email stating that it is no HPC but this type of engine was probably fitted because of the stearing beeing on the left.
The exhaust-part on the original engine seems to be in the way of the steering-axel, that's why they probably choosen this engine.
Concering the car, the price seems right, and i like the car, i consider buying it.
Is there anything particular i have to pay attention to before i make an offer ?
I read somewhere i should check the serialnumers are identical, i have to look beneath the pedalbox for the second serialnumber ?
Are there other known issues, like rost, or wearing out of some specific parts i have to check before buying ?
How can ik check the engine state, it has doen about 35.000 Miles but is over 20 years old.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks, Henk
Thank you for your reply's.
Also got a direct email stating that it is no HPC but this type of engine was probably fitted because of the stearing beeing on the left.
The exhaust-part on the original engine seems to be in the way of the steering-axel, that's why they probably choosen this engine.
Concering the car, the price seems right, and i like the car, i consider buying it.
Is there anything particular i have to pay attention to before i make an offer ?
I read somewhere i should check the serialnumers are identical, i have to look beneath the pedalbox for the second serialnumber ?
Are there other known issues, like rost, or wearing out of some specific parts i have to check before buying ?
How can ik check the engine state, it has doen about 35.000 Miles but is over 20 years old.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks, Henk
Hi Henk,
Wouldn't strictly say that they had to go with that engine because of left hand drive. Many left hand drive Sevens have Vauxhall engines, K-Series etc.
There is a serial number of the plaque which sits next to the pedal box - I am not sure of a second serial number stamped somewhere but somebody may be able to assist with that.
The beauty with looking at Sevens is everything is easy to look at, including the chassis, so it should be easy to see if it has damage, rot etc. The most common place for rot is on the lower edges of the side panels - they rot here because grit and water get stuck down the gap between the footwells and the side skin. The aluminium skin usually bubbles from under the paint so it is quite easy to spot. The ali skin is 'sacrificial' so the steel chassis shouldn't be in bad shape unless the powdercoat has fallen off.
Another great thing about a Seven is that because it is so lightweight, many components such as engine, gearbox etc are not over stressed - unless it has been used hard on a track - so the mechanicals tend to be hard wearing.
Don't be afraid of 35,000 miles. My HPC has 44,000 and drives perfectly.
Re engine check, other than mayo on the oil cap, just make sure the oil pressure is good. I'm sorry, but I don't know the ideal pressures for that engine.
I have read before that 3rd gear can sometimes be problematic but that is more if you push alot of power through it - 200bhp plus.
Other common areas to look at are front wheel bearings so check for play - but this is a relatively cheap and simple thing to fix.
Many Sevens are looked after by their owners so don't be put off if there isn't a massive service history but obviously it is important to check that the car has been properly looked after from a service point of view.
One last thing I can think of if it is a de Dion axle car is to check that the tube isn't cracked.
Cheers
SS
Wouldn't strictly say that they had to go with that engine because of left hand drive. Many left hand drive Sevens have Vauxhall engines, K-Series etc.
There is a serial number of the plaque which sits next to the pedal box - I am not sure of a second serial number stamped somewhere but somebody may be able to assist with that.
The beauty with looking at Sevens is everything is easy to look at, including the chassis, so it should be easy to see if it has damage, rot etc. The most common place for rot is on the lower edges of the side panels - they rot here because grit and water get stuck down the gap between the footwells and the side skin. The aluminium skin usually bubbles from under the paint so it is quite easy to spot. The ali skin is 'sacrificial' so the steel chassis shouldn't be in bad shape unless the powdercoat has fallen off.
Another great thing about a Seven is that because it is so lightweight, many components such as engine, gearbox etc are not over stressed - unless it has been used hard on a track - so the mechanicals tend to be hard wearing.
Don't be afraid of 35,000 miles. My HPC has 44,000 and drives perfectly.
Re engine check, other than mayo on the oil cap, just make sure the oil pressure is good. I'm sorry, but I don't know the ideal pressures for that engine.
I have read before that 3rd gear can sometimes be problematic but that is more if you push alot of power through it - 200bhp plus.
Other common areas to look at are front wheel bearings so check for play - but this is a relatively cheap and simple thing to fix.
Many Sevens are looked after by their owners so don't be put off if there isn't a massive service history but obviously it is important to check that the car has been properly looked after from a service point of view.
One last thing I can think of if it is a de Dion axle car is to check that the tube isn't cracked.
Cheers
SS
Hi Guys.
Thanks for the tips, great info.
Ive got the chassisnumber, it reads: AM 84131
I tried to get details from the info in the link from Snapper Seven (thanks).
I can't make anything from matching the chassisnumber with the table.
The first registration date is somewhere in 1987 is what the seller is telling me, but from the letters AM the A is only find post 1990 (meaning alternative chassis type), and the M pré 1990 means "Marina/Ital? Axle".
I would also expect S3B for Dutch market somewhere in the serial/chassisnumber.
Maybe it's not complete, i will check for myself this weekend when i see the car.
Thanks for the tips, great info.
Ive got the chassisnumber, it reads: AM 84131
I tried to get details from the info in the link from Snapper Seven (thanks).
I can't make anything from matching the chassisnumber with the table.
The first registration date is somewhere in 1987 is what the seller is telling me, but from the letters AM the A is only find post 1990 (meaning alternative chassis type), and the M pré 1990 means "Marina/Ital? Axle".
I would also expect S3B for Dutch market somewhere in the serial/chassisnumber.
Maybe it's not complete, i will check for myself this weekend when i see the car.
The AM number shows the chassis was made by Arch in 1984 and is number 131. That is the Arch chassis number not a Caterham chassis number.
The engine is indeed a Cosworth YB as found in the Sierra & Escort RS Cosworth. This one seems to have lost the turbo, but the nasty cast iron exhaust manifold which is totally unsuitable for normal aspiration has been retained. This is an extreme bodge. I would check the whole car very carefully.
Its not an HPC. There were no HPC's before 1988. 1988-1992 had the Ford Cosworth BDR in 1600 or 1700 cc capacities.
The engine is indeed a Cosworth YB as found in the Sierra & Escort RS Cosworth. This one seems to have lost the turbo, but the nasty cast iron exhaust manifold which is totally unsuitable for normal aspiration has been retained. This is an extreme bodge. I would check the whole car very carefully.
Its not an HPC. There were no HPC's before 1988. 1988-1992 had the Ford Cosworth BDR in 1600 or 1700 cc capacities.
Hi Guys
I went over yesterday to have a look.
The car looks good, couldn't find any visible rust or anything that worried me, but I couldn't see the tube frame though.
But here's the thing, he's not able to sell it becuase of the Cosworth engine which replaced the original engine but without after this mod getting approval from the authorities (by examination). It will pass MOT but only because they don't check at MOT if this engine is registered to the car-chassis.
I am not going to buy it unless he will have it examend and gets this a proper approval.
By coicidence i found another one. A 1972 black S3, completely restored by a company which only restores and sells classic cars, and with proper approval for the cosworth engine (this one isn't missing the turbo) http://thumbsnap.com/sc/iOb8qgHx.jpg
It's much more expensive, but i don't have to worrie about anything.
I will go over there the coming week(end).
Thanks for yor help !
I went over yesterday to have a look.
The car looks good, couldn't find any visible rust or anything that worried me, but I couldn't see the tube frame though.
But here's the thing, he's not able to sell it becuase of the Cosworth engine which replaced the original engine but without after this mod getting approval from the authorities (by examination). It will pass MOT but only because they don't check at MOT if this engine is registered to the car-chassis.
I am not going to buy it unless he will have it examend and gets this a proper approval.
By coicidence i found another one. A 1972 black S3, completely restored by a company which only restores and sells classic cars, and with proper approval for the cosworth engine (this one isn't missing the turbo) http://thumbsnap.com/sc/iOb8qgHx.jpg
It's much more expensive, but i don't have to worrie about anything.
I will go over there the coming week(end).
Thanks for yor help !
Concerning the Black S3.
yes Caterham started production from 73 or 74, but Lotus had already build S3 before that.
They advertise it as a Lotus S3, so maybe it was one of the last cars Lotus made and was in stock for sometime ?
I am no pistonhead if it comes to telling, anyway it's not original anymore, and i don't really care, as long as i can enjoy driving a Lotus or Caterham Seven.
FYI, it's advertised as a Lotus S3 modded with a Cosworth Engine tuned to 280 pk (by HB Motorsport) after the engine was completely restored with all new parts: pistons, cranks, turbo, sealings, etc.
The gearbox has been upgraded to be able to handle 300bhp at least.
The Intercooler was custom made to fit, the battery is in the boot, probably because there is no room for it in the engine compartment.
It's got Wilwood racing brakes, and is lightened by using carbon parts as much as possible.
After all this is has run only 3700 km.
All papers and invoices are with the car including performance graphics of the engine, i will check them offcourse.
grtx, Henk
yes Caterham started production from 73 or 74, but Lotus had already build S3 before that.
They advertise it as a Lotus S3, so maybe it was one of the last cars Lotus made and was in stock for sometime ?
I am no pistonhead if it comes to telling, anyway it's not original anymore, and i don't really care, as long as i can enjoy driving a Lotus or Caterham Seven.
FYI, it's advertised as a Lotus S3 modded with a Cosworth Engine tuned to 280 pk (by HB Motorsport) after the engine was completely restored with all new parts: pistons, cranks, turbo, sealings, etc.
The gearbox has been upgraded to be able to handle 300bhp at least.
The Intercooler was custom made to fit, the battery is in the boot, probably because there is no room for it in the engine compartment.
It's got Wilwood racing brakes, and is lightened by using carbon parts as much as possible.
After all this is has run only 3700 km.
All papers and invoices are with the car including performance graphics of the engine, i will check them offcourse.
grtx, Henk
So it must be a Lotus then, that was registered in 1972. As you say, probably kicking around for a while before it was registered.
Lotus where building the S4 in 72, and sold the rights to Caterham Cars in 73, Caterham then reverted back to building the S3 in 1974.
Anyway, it sounds interesting. Keep us posted on the outcome
Lotus where building the S4 in 72, and sold the rights to Caterham Cars in 73, Caterham then reverted back to building the S3 in 1974.
Anyway, it sounds interesting. Keep us posted on the outcome
Update.
It seems to be a Lotus S4, today they gave me the serialnumber which is 2807.
They didn't mention LSB or LS in front of it, but it is a LHD.
I checked this serial with the link Snapper Seven wrote in this topic above.
Series 4:
Numbers S4/2650 to S4/3315 or maybe more. Left hand drive cars had the 'S4' prefix replaced with either 'LBS4' or 'LS4'
EFA what do you mean by a "primary" which is only 4" long, i am Dutch, don't know what a primary is on a car. Did you suspect by this it could be a S4 ?
Will keep you all informed.
grt, Henk
It seems to be a Lotus S4, today they gave me the serialnumber which is 2807.
They didn't mention LSB or LS in front of it, but it is a LHD.
I checked this serial with the link Snapper Seven wrote in this topic above.
Series 4:
Numbers S4/2650 to S4/3315 or maybe more. Left hand drive cars had the 'S4' prefix replaced with either 'LBS4' or 'LS4'
EFA what do you mean by a "primary" which is only 4" long, i am Dutch, don't know what a primary is on a car. Did you suspect by this it could be a S4 ?
Will keep you all informed.
grt, Henk
henkg said:
Update.
It seems to be a Lotus S4, today they gave me the serialnumber which is 2807.
They didn't mention LSB or LS in front of it, but it is a LHD.
I checked this serial with the link Snapper Seven wrote in this topic above.
Series 4:
Numbers S4/2650 to S4/3315 or maybe more. Left hand drive cars had the 'S4' prefix replaced with either 'LBS4' or 'LS4'
EFA what do you mean by a "primary" which is only 4" long, i am Dutch, don't know what a primary is on a car. Did you suspect by this it could be a S4 ?
Will keep you all informed.
grt, Henk
Primary is the first part of the exhaust the gasses go through when travelling from the exhaust valve. Then you get secondaries/collector/silencer (depending on exhuast design obviously, although all exhausts have primaries)It seems to be a Lotus S4, today they gave me the serialnumber which is 2807.
They didn't mention LSB or LS in front of it, but it is a LHD.
I checked this serial with the link Snapper Seven wrote in this topic above.
Series 4:
Numbers S4/2650 to S4/3315 or maybe more. Left hand drive cars had the 'S4' prefix replaced with either 'LBS4' or 'LS4'
EFA what do you mean by a "primary" which is only 4" long, i am Dutch, don't know what a primary is on a car. Did you suspect by this it could be a S4 ?
Will keep you all informed.
grt, Henk
one eyed mick said:
Ok the ex manifold is not good but 240ish bhp is poss from a n/a cossie
Have seem 345 claimed by JEMS (albeit taking it to 2.5l).Done well, ~220-240 should be pretty straightforward but does need quite a bit changing internally (not to mention plenty of head work). There's a useful overview on the Burton Power site (http://www.burtonpower.com/tuning-guides/tuning-guide-pages/ford-cosworth-yb-turbo-tuning-guide.html) and in Des Hammill Pinto tuning book.
On the exhaust side of this: well worth looking at specialists for this if you go down this route OP.
Be aware too, taking the turbo off can result in a very noisy car...
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