Bright future, next installment...
Discussion
I've said it before, but Caterham aren't selling any more cars than they where when the Nearns owned the company.
The only thing making money at Caterham as far as I can see, is the Seven (I don't know about the F1 side).
They seem to have spent a lot of money on projects that don't come to anything. Lots of marketing BS.
They where selling a race package with the SP300R, and didn't even have a car. A plywood mock up.
In my simple none business mind, surely you want to build, test, and develop a product before you put it on the market?
Now they're selling a kart series, something they know nothing about.
They should be concentrating on quality issues, kit shotages, and getting the right parts out to existing customers, which has been a problem since history began.
I can only seeing ending badly. Sorry!
Does anyone know where they are going to re-locate the showroom?
I agree 100% with everything on that article.
The only thing making money at Caterham as far as I can see, is the Seven (I don't know about the F1 side).
They seem to have spent a lot of money on projects that don't come to anything. Lots of marketing BS.
They where selling a race package with the SP300R, and didn't even have a car. A plywood mock up.
In my simple none business mind, surely you want to build, test, and develop a product before you put it on the market?
Now they're selling a kart series, something they know nothing about.
They should be concentrating on quality issues, kit shotages, and getting the right parts out to existing customers, which has been a problem since history began.
I can only seeing ending badly. Sorry!
Does anyone know where they are going to re-locate the showroom?
I agree 100% with everything on that article.
This worries me too. Caterham Cars and the Seven are in my opinion being sullied by all of this. The car is sacred and I'm very disappointed that it is being used in such a manner. This is simply the worship of money and it's sick. I'm sure the people talking all of this branding nonsense would have no qualms dropping the Seven like a hot potato if it was no longer lining their pockets. Why can we not have some sanity, common sense and honesty? I'm sure there will be people that come along and say that it's a business and that the whole aim is to make money, but Caterham Cars was founded on the deep desire to keep the Seven alive and not on the obsession with massive profit. Very sad.
When all of the articles are read, and thanks for posting them, it is very hard not to come to the conclusion that it is only the financial backing of TF that can keep CC afloat.
If or when that financial backing moves on, then alas CC may follow the ways of BL, Rover, JJB, HMV, Comet, Blockbuster, .... All very doom and gloom I know.
But if the key revenue is the Seven, then surely keeping the investment in new, used, Aftersales, parts etc should be at the core of the business?
This is very frustrating as a Seven owner, as the cars are niche but unique and worth keeping as part of a UK car industry.
Come on CC get your head out of your business arse, smell the coffee and get on with making what sells. Otherwise you are going to become a business statistic casualty.
If or when that financial backing moves on, then alas CC may follow the ways of BL, Rover, JJB, HMV, Comet, Blockbuster, .... All very doom and gloom I know.
But if the key revenue is the Seven, then surely keeping the investment in new, used, Aftersales, parts etc should be at the core of the business?
This is very frustrating as a Seven owner, as the cars are niche but unique and worth keeping as part of a UK car industry.
Come on CC get your head out of your business arse, smell the coffee and get on with making what sells. Otherwise you are going to become a business statistic casualty.
The problems go back to the Nearns era. The 7s business is essentially a lifestyle business (not talking about what "caterham" now means). It's never going to get significant growth and has no essential bigger better future. The future was a good living for its owners, employment for staff and a fantastic but extraordinarily niche car for their customers. The proposition was to keep that going as long as possible, battling through ever increasing legislation until it becomes impossible. Then the business would shrink and depart this mortal coil.
The "but" is that the Nearns decided they didn't want a lifestyle business any more and had an opportunity to turn it into a lump of cash. Good on them, their right as business owners.
The madness started when the VC (or is it PE) came in. They generally buy businesses to sell them at a future point for more money. That doesn't work with lifestyle businesses. So Corven (or what ever the right name was), bought the wrong business. They bought a lifestyle business on the back on a daft plan from AA and co to turn it into a more valuable business. Now it may not have been a daft plan, I've never seen it, but there was no sight of a clever grand plan to build a properly bigger better business with more products to more customers.
Then through a good slice of luck (good or bad depending on your perspective), AA and Corven found a sucker with an even madder plan and got shot to TF. Corven got their return I suspect, AA got his options and bonuses and then it's on to a plan madder than mad Jock McMad.
Will the 7 appear unscathed out of all this? Well stranger things have happened. At the point when the whole Caterham empire stands for something else, maybe a "new Lotus" with an F1 business, an engineering business, a composites business, a Caterham-Alpine business, sat there will be an unloved, unwanted 7s product and business. Just ready for someone to come along and buy the old product line, breath some life into it and create another lifestyle business making and selling 300 7s a year.
Sounds just the thing I'd like to do. I'll call my business "Epsom Cars". Anyone want to buy an "Epsom Super 7"?
Now where did I put TF's phone number...
The "but" is that the Nearns decided they didn't want a lifestyle business any more and had an opportunity to turn it into a lump of cash. Good on them, their right as business owners.
The madness started when the VC (or is it PE) came in. They generally buy businesses to sell them at a future point for more money. That doesn't work with lifestyle businesses. So Corven (or what ever the right name was), bought the wrong business. They bought a lifestyle business on the back on a daft plan from AA and co to turn it into a more valuable business. Now it may not have been a daft plan, I've never seen it, but there was no sight of a clever grand plan to build a properly bigger better business with more products to more customers.
Then through a good slice of luck (good or bad depending on your perspective), AA and Corven found a sucker with an even madder plan and got shot to TF. Corven got their return I suspect, AA got his options and bonuses and then it's on to a plan madder than mad Jock McMad.
Will the 7 appear unscathed out of all this? Well stranger things have happened. At the point when the whole Caterham empire stands for something else, maybe a "new Lotus" with an F1 business, an engineering business, a composites business, a Caterham-Alpine business, sat there will be an unloved, unwanted 7s product and business. Just ready for someone to come along and buy the old product line, breath some life into it and create another lifestyle business making and selling 300 7s a year.
Sounds just the thing I'd like to do. I'll call my business "Epsom Cars". Anyone want to buy an "Epsom Super 7"?
Now where did I put TF's phone number...
I fear for the long term future , What type of people are now running the company ? You only have to look at the dreadful design of the new Caterham Nose Badge to see that !! , Look at the way Fernandez's Football Club is being run their odd's on for religation Players they cant get off their Books because their on massive over inflated Contract's that no other Club want to take on.
To be honest i personally cant be bothered with Caterham anymore, they use parts that should be cheaper, there second hand car sales arent realistic, and they are pretty bold with the product (the 7)and what they charge which i think to the standard punter is a little bit greedy.
The stand says it all at Autosport, its all flash and F1 orientated, they didnt even score a point in 2012.
A freind and myself stood there checking out the R600 for 10 mins or so and at no point were any of the 8 or so salesmen interested in coming across. Both of us have spent a small fortune on racing over the past 7 years and have owned, Roadsports (raced in academy), R400 K, R300 K, and currently a duratec R400 pretty heavily developed and 300bhp. ....so not essentially and R400. For all they knew we could have had 20 grand each in our pockets and willing to go with the R600?!
Anyway this annoyed me a little and so i asked one of the salesman about it all, and he said the R600 was available .......what customers usually do is buy and give it to their race teams to build. Fair enough! and if you want a test drive you put a deposit down and if your not happy with the car you can get it back, fair enough. Well i'd be willing to do this in all honesty to see how it delivers the power and how it handles compared to the NA car i have.
I left my details but ive heard nothing and im not really bothered,.....i've concluded that they have lost there direction and not really interested in the proper club racer, just those with deep pockets.
This might be a good business move to make cash, but its not my cup of tea anymore.....i've lost the buzz for the company, not the car.
The stand says it all at Autosport, its all flash and F1 orientated, they didnt even score a point in 2012.
A freind and myself stood there checking out the R600 for 10 mins or so and at no point were any of the 8 or so salesmen interested in coming across. Both of us have spent a small fortune on racing over the past 7 years and have owned, Roadsports (raced in academy), R400 K, R300 K, and currently a duratec R400 pretty heavily developed and 300bhp. ....so not essentially and R400. For all they knew we could have had 20 grand each in our pockets and willing to go with the R600?!
Anyway this annoyed me a little and so i asked one of the salesman about it all, and he said the R600 was available .......what customers usually do is buy and give it to their race teams to build. Fair enough! and if you want a test drive you put a deposit down and if your not happy with the car you can get it back, fair enough. Well i'd be willing to do this in all honesty to see how it delivers the power and how it handles compared to the NA car i have.
I left my details but ive heard nothing and im not really bothered,.....i've concluded that they have lost there direction and not really interested in the proper club racer, just those with deep pockets.
This might be a good business move to make cash, but its not my cup of tea anymore.....i've lost the buzz for the company, not the car.
Sam I know how you feel having expressed an interest in the R600 race series I didn't get a reply for nearly a week even then it contained little of the info I requested, by then I'd pretty much decided to spend my money elsewhere on a considerably more expensive Juno somewhere my custom seem's to be appreciated with an ability to provide immediate response's to any questions I have & having displayed a real can do attitude.
Poor customer service isn't a new thing for Caterham.
I went to order a Super Sprint in 1989, and the supercilious salesman was so rude I bought a Westfield.
When i ordered my Caterham in 2010, I was pleasantly surprised to deal with a nice bloke called Dominic.
It was actually a pleasure to deal with him, but he has left the company now.
While waiting at the showroom in Caterham last time I was there, a nice man came in to pick up his brand new Seven.
It turned out that not only was the car still at Dartford, it had been damaged, needed a respray and nobody at the factory had bothered to phone him and stop him coming all the way up from the west country
I went to order a Super Sprint in 1989, and the supercilious salesman was so rude I bought a Westfield.
When i ordered my Caterham in 2010, I was pleasantly surprised to deal with a nice bloke called Dominic.
It was actually a pleasure to deal with him, but he has left the company now.
While waiting at the showroom in Caterham last time I was there, a nice man came in to pick up his brand new Seven.
It turned out that not only was the car still at Dartford, it had been damaged, needed a respray and nobody at the factory had bothered to phone him and stop him coming all the way up from the west country
We've spoken with Caterham and their PR team many times and raised our concerns about these issues. When we found their statements were at odds with what he heard from drivers, teams and technical partners we contacted them and asked for their help in closing the gap. Either they're true and the safest move is to 'fess-up and explain why, or they're wrong and a quick rebuttal can be published.
I'm a great believer in the truth being the best remedy, especially when it's heartfelt. But in my experience, most car makers clam up at the very idea of doing so, with inevitable results.
For what it's worth, in all of our discussions with Caterham's PR team, I gained a palpable sense of excitement about the future. There's (apparently) lots going on, a real commitment to preserving the Seven and capturing its essence in future models. Beyond that, I can't tell you any more, because we haven't actually seen any of the substance behind these plans.
Do I think it's really there? Well I think there's a real wish for it to *be* there, but I've not seen any evidence that TF or his management team would be able to sit down with you guys and wax lyrical about the virtues of a Seven. In fact I've not seen TF sitting in a Seven since he bought the company. Have you?
I'd love to be wrong, and perhaps PH can facilitate such a forum with him, but until then I'm disappointed to see these discussions develop without *any* intervention from the company or their representatives.
I'm a great believer in the truth being the best remedy, especially when it's heartfelt. But in my experience, most car makers clam up at the very idea of doing so, with inevitable results.
For what it's worth, in all of our discussions with Caterham's PR team, I gained a palpable sense of excitement about the future. There's (apparently) lots going on, a real commitment to preserving the Seven and capturing its essence in future models. Beyond that, I can't tell you any more, because we haven't actually seen any of the substance behind these plans.
Do I think it's really there? Well I think there's a real wish for it to *be* there, but I've not seen any evidence that TF or his management team would be able to sit down with you guys and wax lyrical about the virtues of a Seven. In fact I've not seen TF sitting in a Seven since he bought the company. Have you?
I'd love to be wrong, and perhaps PH can facilitate such a forum with him, but until then I'm disappointed to see these discussions develop without *any* intervention from the company or their representatives.
dsl2 said:
Sam I know how you feel having expressed an interest in the R600 race series I didn't get a reply for nearly a week even then it contained little of the info I requested, by then I'd pretty much decided to spend my money elsewhere on a considerably more expensive Juno somewhere my custom seem's to be appreciated with an ability to provide immediate response's to any questions I have & having displayed a real can do attitude.
The whole snobbery of it all was a joke really, how did they get there.....from customers buying cars for the road/ racing them/ buying parts. Now all you get is a salesman looking down his nose at you? classic.I am being a bit harsh as this was the auto sports show, although it was like that last year as well. I popped into the factory by Mallory one day for a nosey and the guy there was full of beans, he took me across to the large building and just said have a look around, they must have had 30 cars sitting there, but apart from that....they really haven't shown me any great deal of service, albeit parts im usually ordering.
I would love to go down the SP route but my local championships (Scotland and the North) are stuck in a time warp!!
In a sense I don't mind poor service from Caterham. It has always been the case. Since my first purchase in 1996 it's been like that. Things like the badge really make no difference at all. I can't seem them as a sign of impending doom. Being ignored on stands, no sales guy following up. Has always been so.
It seems to me that all current Caterham customer are bought into what Caterham currently stands for. By current I mean before the TF aquisition. A fantastic single highly niche product put together from core own design components and the best of the parts bins.
The BIG problem is now there is a big (and as I said, mad) new plan. I think that if it works out it might be great for what is the new Caterham organization (all of it). But it's just really really different than what the current customers (7 owners) value. My guess of the chances of success are one in 10 at best.
So looking at the outcomes...
New Caterham plan succeeds (whatever it is). The 7 will be completely marginalised as a product. TF will sell it.
New Caterham plan fails. The 7 will be an asset that gets sold.
Nasty, bumbling middle ground. Neither success nor failure. A mish-mash of half-arsed ideas and failed efforts to get products and race series to market. A shock of poorly designed badges, promises that aren't kept, old execs out, new execs in, accountants in charge
Nothing happens and the 7 gradually fades away.
Bert
It seems to me that all current Caterham customer are bought into what Caterham currently stands for. By current I mean before the TF aquisition. A fantastic single highly niche product put together from core own design components and the best of the parts bins.
The BIG problem is now there is a big (and as I said, mad) new plan. I think that if it works out it might be great for what is the new Caterham organization (all of it). But it's just really really different than what the current customers (7 owners) value. My guess of the chances of success are one in 10 at best.
So looking at the outcomes...
New Caterham plan succeeds (whatever it is). The 7 will be completely marginalised as a product. TF will sell it.
New Caterham plan fails. The 7 will be an asset that gets sold.
Nasty, bumbling middle ground. Neither success nor failure. A mish-mash of half-arsed ideas and failed efforts to get products and race series to market. A shock of poorly designed badges, promises that aren't kept, old execs out, new execs in, accountants in charge
Nothing happens and the 7 gradually fades away.Bert
coppice said:
Time warp it may be but the DDMC NSSC series gets full grids and cracking racing
It does in the B,C,D and F classes but the A+E's sometimes is a bit dull, it could do with some cars capable of 1.26's (to keep up with HWR Elise) without spending horrendous amounts on engines/ chassis etc, something sub 20 grand.....begins with R and with L.Apologies off topic......Caterham, boo.
BertBert said:
In a sense I don't mind poor service from Caterham. It has always been the case. Since my first purchase in 1996 it's been like that. Things like the badge really make no difference at all. I can't seem them as a sign of impending doom. Being ignored on stands, no sales guy following up. Has always been so.
It seems to me that all current Caterham customer are bought into what Caterham currently stands for. By current I mean before the TF aquisition. A fantastic single highly niche product put together from core own design components and the best of the parts bins.
The BIG problem is now there is a big (and as I said, mad) new plan. I think that if it works out it might be great for what is the new Caterham organization (all of it). But it's just really really different than what the current customers (7 owners) value. My guess of the chances of success are one in 10 at best.
So looking at the outcomes...
New Caterham plan succeeds (whatever it is). The 7 will be completely marginalised as a product. TF will sell it.
New Caterham plan fails. The 7 will be an asset that gets sold.
Nasty, bumbling middle ground. Neither success nor failure. A mish-mash of half-arsed ideas and failed efforts to get products and race series to market. A shock of poorly designed badges, promises that aren't kept, old execs out, new execs in, accountants in charge Nothing happens and the 7 gradually fades away.
Bert
That is exactly how I see it and others far more in the know than me see it the same way. There is one hope...and that is that cashflow ought to be eased and Caterham Cars, as a small part of Fernandes' empire, might flourish 'under the radar' as it were...It seems to me that all current Caterham customer are bought into what Caterham currently stands for. By current I mean before the TF aquisition. A fantastic single highly niche product put together from core own design components and the best of the parts bins.
The BIG problem is now there is a big (and as I said, mad) new plan. I think that if it works out it might be great for what is the new Caterham organization (all of it). But it's just really really different than what the current customers (7 owners) value. My guess of the chances of success are one in 10 at best.
So looking at the outcomes...
New Caterham plan succeeds (whatever it is). The 7 will be completely marginalised as a product. TF will sell it.
New Caterham plan fails. The 7 will be an asset that gets sold.
Nasty, bumbling middle ground. Neither success nor failure. A mish-mash of half-arsed ideas and failed efforts to get products and race series to market. A shock of poorly designed badges, promises that aren't kept, old execs out, new execs in, accountants in charge
Nothing happens and the 7 gradually fades away.Bert
rubystone said:
That is exactly how I see it and others far more in the know than me see it the same way. There is one hope...and that is that cashflow ought to be eased and Caterham Cars, as a small part of Fernandes' empire, might flourish 'under the radar' as it were...
Let's hope so. I think it's really unlikely and I suspect the 7 will need to escape the TF empire to have any hope at all. They put the FD in charge, what hope is there?Bert
So then, in order for the Seven to survive for another 40 years, we need a canny engineer with a vision and passion; bit like the original: Mr G.Nearn
"Production of the Seven under Nearn's stewardship would peak at 600 cars a year in the late 1980s (with an 18-month waiting list) and in 1993 Caterham was given the Queens Award for Industry."
How times do indeed change.
Then is some cool advertising, bit like that from the 'The Prisoner'.. updated..
Then some financial backing; how about this chap; someone who is not conventional?
Location, where to build it?
"Production of the Seven under Nearn's stewardship would peak at 600 cars a year in the late 1980s (with an 18-month waiting list) and in 1993 Caterham was given the Queens Award for Industry."
How times do indeed change.
Then is some cool advertising, bit like that from the 'The Prisoner'.. updated..
Then some financial backing; how about this chap; someone who is not conventional?
Location, where to build it?
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