R400D to R500D Anyone done it?

R400D to R500D Anyone done it?

Author
Discussion

DCL

Original Poster:

1,215 posts

178 months

Monday 7th December 2015
quotequote all
k20erham said:
Hi not that you need the tip, but just look at all that lint/fibers on the crank casting from your clothes/rags, it's a bugger to get off, lovely analysis and reporting, look forward enjoying the next chapters, glad you managed to avoid any damage.
Don't worry smile - still to go through the dishwasher when the wife's out. smile


Edited by DCL on Tuesday 8th December 09:16

Megaflow

9,346 posts

224 months

Tuesday 8th December 2015
quotequote all
DCL said:
That's a tricky question! There's too many factors to answer simply but here goes (IMHO) . . .

Taking the standard engine first; it's designed to run on a 5w30. For a 2L engine that was quite ambitious, and was one of the factors that make the Duratec a it highly efficient engine. To achieve it, the factory engine uses graded bearings to keep tolerances within a very tight spec.

But when you tune the Duratec it is difficult, to maintain such tight tolerances with up-rated aftermarket bearings. In fact, it often desirable to increase clearance as the engine will tend flex and expand more as the level of tune increases.

So it tends leaks more oil from the bearings and it's normal to use a 5w50 oil once you raise RPM and power significantly. For racing a 10w50, or even a 10w60, is need to give a similar level of protection as a standard engine using 5w30. However, you can gain some power by using thinner oil and accepting a shorter engine life.

This year I used a 5w40, which is fine for sprint events, but maybe not for longer track sessions. it certainly added to the cost of this refresh and was probably not worth it - unless your budget is not a problem of course.
Interesting, so when you say thinner oil, it is still actually thicker than the factory oil. I saw thinner oil and had concerns about film thickness.

What was the oil pressure and temperature logs look like?

DCL

Original Poster:

1,215 posts

178 months

Tuesday 8th December 2015
quotequote all
It always had good oil pressure, 60+ psi and 25-30 psi on idle. With the thinner oil, it didn't drop noticeably, but what I did notice was reduced endurance. With the thicker oil, t&p's seemed to plateau, but with the 5w40 the oil temp wanted to keep edging up until you needed and take action with a cool down lap. Had I been racing, and not sprinting, I suspect that would have been a bigger issue.


Edited by DCL on Tuesday 8th December 10:10

JeffC

1,685 posts

211 months

Tuesday 8th December 2015
quotequote all
Interesting on the oil, I was advised by my engine builder to run Millers motorsport 10/60 on my Duratec , the car did do long stints on track though so did see some high temperatures. I have continued to use the same oil on my new car which runs a Honda k20 engine and I feel i need to change this as even without an oil cooler I cant get the oil past 95 degrees no matter how long I stay out on track and from what I have read getting the oil spec correct is important.

k20erham

372 posts

125 months

Tuesday 8th December 2015
quotequote all
Hi watch out for the dish washer too!!! I did the same but I obviously didn't get all the salt out of the container nearly wrecked my K20 block!!!! turned everything rusty!! and the alloy a dull grey!! silly silly me!!
Jeff the K20 Honda is reputed to be the best ever turn key 220BHP out of the crate engine ever produced JDM of course 110bhp per liter in 2002 and good for 80/100K, it's like a Swiss watch compared to a duratec, Terry Bourne recommends 80/100 hrs on his VDEV engines in between rebuilds and they are 270 BHP motors.

JeffC

1,685 posts

211 months

Tuesday 8th December 2015
quotequote all
yeh im a convert they are a cracking motor, no dry sump to worry about either !
my motor had done 140,000 miles and it went from the donor car straight into my race car, fitted some DC5 cams, light weight flywheel, RBC inlet and Skunk exhaust manifold , upped the limiter to 8600rpm and it dyno'd at a steady 245bhp, Its done a few races now and a lot of track work and the motor is sweet as a nut, not one bit of back pressure, no oil leaks or smoke, just takes the abuse!! just find it strange that the oil doesnt get hot ,first track car I have ever had with that problem !! I even have had a short ratio box build so its now sat over 7,000 rpm all the time and still fine . my only disappointment is it does sound as nice as the old Honda B18 C6 lump . that was ahead of its time, over 200bhp and 9,000rpm from a 1.8 back in 1996.

Edited by JeffC on Tuesday 8th December 12:01

Megaflow

9,346 posts

224 months

Tuesday 8th December 2015
quotequote all
DCL said:
It always had good oil pressure, 60+ psi and 25-30 psi on idle. With the thinner oil, it didn't drop noticeably, but what I did notice was reduced endurance. With the thicker oil, t&p's seemed to plateau, but with the 5w40 the oil temp wanted to keep edging up until you needed and take action with a cool down lap. Had I been racing, and not sprinting, I suspect that would have been a bigger issue.


Edited by DCL on Tuesday 8th December 10:10
I suspect you are right. Modern oils will take a lot of abuse and temperature before pressure becomes an issue. 135 intermittent is not an issue anymore, I suspect the quality oils would take that as a continuous before it becomes an issue.

BertBert

18,953 posts

210 months

Tuesday 8th December 2015
quotequote all
DCL said:
but with the 5w40 the oil temp wanted to keep edging up until you needed and take action with a cool down lap.
So that's interesting, why is that?

Not because the engine produced more heat from the combustion process surely? Not because of poorer cooling? I can only think that the oil is not doing its job properly in the mains and big ends. Causing friction and thus more heat and oil temp? Sounds like very close to failure if that's right.

Bert

KN02LEY

72 posts

118 months

Tuesday 8th December 2015
quotequote all
Maybe it just becomes more prone to mechanical churning? I can't imagine any bearing or combustion temperature issues affecting the oil without catastrophic failure being imminent.

DCL

Original Poster:

1,215 posts

178 months

Tuesday 8th December 2015
quotequote all
BertBert said:
So that's interesting, why is that?

Not because the engine produced more heat from the combustion process surely? Not because of poorer cooling? I can only think that the oil is not doing its job properly in the mains and big ends. Causing friction and thus more heat and oil temp? Sounds like very close to failure if that's right.

Bert
I'm not sure, but one theory, as you say, is that the oil film thickness was getting thinner and stresses on the oil were greater. But it could also be that the thinner oil is circulating faster and removing more heat to the point that the cooler was no longer adequate. Either way, I think when oil temps don't stabalise, your probably at the limits of the bearings and oil.

One for the oil professionals to answer really.

nicemd

52 posts

174 months

Tuesday 8th December 2015
quotequote all
Could it be the other way around, that it is the thicker oil that won't dissipate the heat and actually promote wear by not lubricating tight bearings?

Does a thinner oil really increase wear as long as the oil film hold together?

I have no idea, just trying to challenge your thesis.

BertBert

18,953 posts

210 months

Tuesday 8th December 2015
quotequote all
When I was suffering bearing failures in a rather older Ford engine, I found this which makes quite interesting reading...

http://kingbearings.com/files/Engine_Bearings_and_...

Bert

DCL

Original Poster:

1,215 posts

178 months

Tuesday 8th December 2015
quotequote all
Interesting! That suggests that the engine may have been entering a 'mixed lubrication regime'. Certainly the cam journal fits that theory. But The dyno showed more power (less friction?) so it couldn't be too far into that regime. But it possibly did get to an unstable stage at some point.

There's no doubt other factors too, but it has been an interesting exercise to test these things in a relatively controlled way. The lesson learnt is that 5w40 is marginal on a 270 BHP Duratec.



Edited by DCL on Tuesday 8th December 19:31

DCL

Original Poster:

1,215 posts

178 months

Thursday 28th January 2016
quotequote all
Time for an update

The engine went back together without any unexpected problems. The only thing to report was that I replaced the inlet cam, rings, and re-honed the bores. I spent quite a while waiting for a specialist honing brush to plateau finish them, but that was really a waste of time as the finish was not any better than the stone.



I also made a little profiled blanking plug for the exhaust



So, with the engine finished, it was back to the paddle shift. I'll pick up on its own thread.

cambuscat

153 posts

170 months

Friday 29th January 2016
quotequote all
David, what was the blanking plug for?

DCL

Original Poster:

1,215 posts

178 months

Friday 29th January 2016
quotequote all
cambuscat said:
David, what was the blanking plug for?
It blanks the ERG cavity. Normal way to blank the EGR is a core plug (as seen on the left side). No idea if it will have any performance benefit, but thought it was a nice idea to blank the cavity too

DCL

Original Poster:

1,215 posts

178 months

Thursday 4th August 2016
quotequote all
Time for an update smile

Three years ago, at the start of this thread, there was some discussion about lap times at Knockhill and what improvements the up grade was likely to make. I was hoping for 56 second, maybe 55 second laps, but this project grew arms and legs and the car has evolved to something a little more special than I was expecting. The finishing touch was a set of Penske shocks from Meteor Motorsport.

Here's Rory Butcher driving the car on Friday . . .

https://youtu.be/vut8eOH9oPk

DCL

Original Poster:

1,215 posts

178 months

Tuesday 25th October 2016
quotequote all
This year I really felt this project had peaked. Not because there wasn’t more performance available from the 2L Duratec, but because I had become aware how stressed a 2L 8500+ rpm engine is. Three seasons was asking a lot - it was time to retire the engine to the spares corner in the garage.

Knowing that I was probably climbing out the reliability bathtub, I had commissioned a new head with the intention of building a new zero hour engine for 2017, and that arrived a couple of days before the SLS championship final. Perhaps that was tempting fate, but the engine must have known its time was up . . . and it didn't want to go quietly.


Picture courtesy of Richard Breakell

During the first hot lap in qualifying, I noticed a misfire going up Duffus (reverse direction). In hindsight, I should have abandoned the session at that point, but, with oil pressure and temps normal, I was keen to get a lap time. The misfire cleared for a while, but returned on the back straight and developed into a mechanical rattle as I approached the chicane. The throttle then would not close and the revving engine spectacularly ground itself to bits in a big cloud of smoke. I finally shut it down as I coasted to halt. I knew it was bad, but I was more upset about not finishing the event - my first time ever in the SLS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTdeBj7h400

There was a fist size hole in the crank, but I sensed this was not a big end failure. The engine was rotating so freely, and with oil pressure normal throughout, it had to be a dropped valve, and that probably meant a valve spring failure.



Once home, this was was quickly confirmed . . .


The spring showing a classic fatigue fracture . . .


It had logged 85 hours, all on track. That is on the lower end of what you might expect from a spring, but not outside the life expectancy with the cam lift and and RPM I was using. Kent Cams have offered to analyse the spring and I will take them up on that offer, but they initial response is that it was not a combination of cam profile they have tested. They say the spring was intended to be used as a duplex set. Strangely they supply seats and retainers to use it as single spring. The early R500 Duratecs do have a history of valve spring failures, but this one is a different spring. Personally, I suspect resonance played a part in the failure as the position of the break strongly suggest that.

The rest of the engine was essentially a write off, and I don’t intend to reuse any of the stressed parts in my new engine, but I’d be happy to run the crank, cams, drysump, remaining rods, pistons, valves, cams, in a ‘down rated’ engine.

For your entertainment, here’s some photos of the carnage . . .







The dry sump damage to the windage tray, but otherwise intact


The gudgeon pin circlip that jammed the throttle open.


So what’s for next year?

As said, I’ve already got a new head, this time to an even higher spec (bigger valves and seats) with hotter cams - basically as far as you can go with the standard head. But what it will be matted with is still undecided . . . I may try a 2.5L just for the hell of it. I’ll keep you posted.

Dave_H34

29 posts

95 months

Wednesday 26th October 2016
quotequote all
eekcool

cambuscat

153 posts

170 months

Wednesday 26th October 2016
quotequote all
David, sorry to read about your blow up but at least it came at a time when you were planning to upgrade anyway.

David