R400D to R500D Anyone done it?

R400D to R500D Anyone done it?

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damdy-cash

65 posts

185 months

Wednesday 26th October 2016
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scary but very interesting!! Cheers Volker

DCL

Original Poster:

1,215 posts

178 months

Thursday 16th March 2017
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Just a quick up date . . .

The engine was rebuilt to more or less an identical spec to the last one. It went on the rollers yesterday and performed faultlessly and returned an almost identical power graph. A little stronger towards the top due to a slightly different cam and head spec. Overall it's a little more responsive. Here's it on the rollers having the transient fueling checked for the blipper - something I wasn't able to do last time as it was before the paddle shift was fitted.

https://youtu.be/gzwnlsi5G1M

Attention is now going to the building of a 2.5L engine. Hopefully I will have something by the end of the season.

griggsy2

126 posts

279 months

Saturday 18th March 2017
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Looks like I have JeffC's old car.

Can confirm the engine is a peach and just been remapped to get 265bhp by 7000 rpm as opposed to 8000+.

DCL

Original Poster:

1,215 posts

178 months

Saturday 18th March 2017
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griggsy2 said:
Looks like I have JeffC's old car.

Can confirm the engine is a peach and just been remapped to get 265bhp by 7000 rpm as opposed to 8000+.
Yeah, that car has very similar spec of engine, but perhaps a slightly early incarnation of head and cams. A few years ago I would have been quite happy to quote figures, but I've been doing this long enough now to realise that rolling roads are not quite all what they seem. The inherent errors and particularly the human factors make quoting figures a little academic. But Simon's 2L engines will produce a real 260-270 BHP on a good day, but 265BHP at 7000 requires a volumetric efficiency that is unlikely.

Edited by DCL on Saturday 18th March 13:57

griggsy2

126 posts

279 months

Saturday 18th March 2017
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Very true.

Just went to check and I'm confusing maps.. The higher power map producing 265 ( on rr) was 7700rpm cut off with a 16 degree ambient. Would post the plot if I knew how to link from Flickr smile

griggsy2

126 posts

279 months

Saturday 18th March 2017
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DCL

Original Poster:

1,215 posts

178 months

Saturday 18th March 2017
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This is worth a read. http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=110...

I'm afraid 193 lbf-ft is verging on the theoretically impossibility from your spec of normally aspirated 2L. It would need full race with considerable pulse tuning to get the volumetric efficiency that this represents.

I'm afraid rolling roads are more than capable of producing errors this big, just surprised your guys who did this don't know there stuff well enough to realise something was wrong.

griggsy2

126 posts

279 months

Sunday 19th March 2017
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I think you're confusing me for somebody who thinks RR figures are very accurate?

Like it or not, they are the best way of trying to get some idea of what the setup produces + or - 10/20 % and very useful for mapping. Post this mapping session the drive ability is much improved which was the purpose as it was previously running extremely rich.

For sake of others, engine build spec is as follows:

-Northampton Motorsport Engine
-2019cc over-sized
-88mm Omega forged pistons
-12.6:1 compression ratio
-Saenz HB con rods
-ACL competition bearings all round
-Head gasket 0.6mm cushed
-Neil Roper developments hand ported high-port head
-Piper cams double springs
-Piper cams BP 300 cams
-Cam timing: 102 inlet, 104 exhaust
-Crank, flywheel balanced
-Head skimmed 0.95mm
-Increased inlet valve pockets
-Standard crank keywayed


DCL

Original Poster:

1,215 posts

178 months

Sunday 19th March 2017
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Sorry, definitely some confusion as that engine spec is not the one I thought we were talking about. My point was that once you see over 95 lbf-ft per litre, you know there's likely to be something wrong with the run/calibration as it takes a VERY special engine to get that.

Out of interest, looking at the shape of your torque curve, my guess is that there been some early loss of traction on the rollers and the inertia has added back in mid range. But the overall figure is what I would expect.

Edited by DCL on Sunday 19th March 08:30

griggsy2

126 posts

279 months

Sunday 19th March 2017
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Indeed, def looks like some wheel slip which is confirmed by the other plot where the map is the same other than limiting to 6500rpm for noise reasons (brands issue mainly).

JeffC

1,685 posts

211 months

Sunday 19th March 2017
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griggsy2 said:
Looks like I have JeffC's old car.

.
out of all the cars that I have owned I do miss that car ! frown

griggsy2

126 posts

279 months

Sunday 19th March 2017
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If it makes you feel better it's currently getting a lot of love as I go round and freshen up everything. Some parts in the spray booth tomorrow and then I'm replacing all fuel and oil lines to make sure everything is well.

You don't happen to know what white it is do you? Paint shop reckon they found a match but couldn't find ref anywhere in the paperwork smile

JeffC

1,685 posts

211 months

Sunday 19th March 2017
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griggsy2 said:
If it makes you feel better it's currently getting a lot of love as I go round and freshen up everything. Some parts in the spray booth tomorrow and then I'm replacing all fuel and oil lines to make sure everything is well.

You don't happen to know what white it is do you? Paint shop reckon they found a match but couldn't find ref anywhere in the paperwork smile
I certainly do as I painted it and its Ford Frozen White same as the Focus RS , I used Octorol High solids 2k standard shade. smile


enjoy it, its a cracking car that went very well on track.

griggsy2

126 posts

279 months

Sunday 19th March 2017
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Top man, thanks!

My R400D was a ford colour too so must be a good match, that was asbo orange but preferring the white.

Thanks again!

DCL

Original Poster:

1,215 posts

178 months

Monday 20th March 2017
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Just to follow up, here's the power curve of the new engine



I say power curve but it's pretty straight and the the torque is strong and heading back up at the limiter. So I should easily get 270+bhp when it's rev'd to 8500 rpm. In theory, it should now run up to 9000 rpm with the new duplex springs fitted to the head, but I'm not sure I'd want to take the penalty in terms of engine life, so it'll be limited to 8000 for track days and 8500 for competition.

griggsy2

126 posts

279 months

Monday 20th March 2017
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Looks great!

griggsy2

126 posts

279 months

Monday 27th March 2017
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JeffC said:
I certainly do as I painted it and its Ford Frozen White same as the Focus RS , I used Octorol High solids 2k standard shade. smile


enjoy it, its a cracking car that went very well on track.
Thought you might like to see the results after the bonnet cut, spray and nose/arch lacquering:



Thanks again for the paint info!

(Sorry for thread drift)

Edited by griggsy2 on Monday 27th March 15:51

JeffC

1,685 posts

211 months

Monday 27th March 2017
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Looking good still. I recall having that roof on once and boy was it wet !!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPEJ86lyM2M&t=...

griggsy2

126 posts

279 months

Monday 27th March 2017
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Bloody hell, that is wet, cracking track though and nice skills!

Looking forward to the new season!

DCL

Original Poster:

1,215 posts

178 months

Saturday 1st April 2017
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After the original engine failed, I was very keen to build a 2.5L. In part to broaden my knowledge of the newer Duratec range, and partly as I wanted to explore a big low revving engine in Caterham. What put me off was that I was unsure how well the Sadev and Geartronics paddle shift would cope with the high inertia of the very heavy 2.5L crank.

However, about 18 months ago, I became aware that Ultimate Performance where developing a light weight 2.5L crank. They had already developed their own ‘long’ rods and slipper pistons for the 2.5L, and the combination was looking to be very promising at overcoming my concerns about the 2.5L. In fact, the rotating mass is similar to that of the standard 2L engine.



So I’m pleased to say that Ultimate has shown a considerable degree of trust in me and supplied one of the first cranks to be manufactured. These are still to be run and tested in an engine, so I’m feeling a little privileged to be in the position of testing it.



The parts to complete this build are all on order and the build will start soon with a target date of mid-June for putting it on the dyno.

More posts soon . . .