Interesting R620 for sale!
Discussion
OB, I'm actually probably somewhere between you and Nigel in terms of why I have a Caterham. I love the "smiles per pound" appeal of them and when you take the lack of depreciation into account they're even better.
With regards to your point about a Cayman, I think you're going a bit off topic, sure if you want a day to day car that's easy to live with and want to buy it from a suited sales person, a Caterham is probably not for you. I'm guessing Nigel isn't in this category though, I would think the VAST majority of Caterham owners will have a second car for day-to-day duties.
With regards to Caterham as a company though, neither of these points changes anything at all. Sounds like you've done an awesome job of getting a spectacular car, but Caterham have made exactly zero out of you doing it. Nigel is exactly the kind of guy they should be trying to market to! He's proven that he'll spend money with them! It sounds like there are just so many things wrong with the way they've dealt with him as a customer... It really winds me up actually, I love Caterham as a car company, and to see it being run poorly is very frustrating.
Things that seem obvious to me:
- New Sales Manager of Caterham Midlands should clearly have done some research (this is sales 101)
- Caterham should probably have invited their top clients (Nigel clearly included) to come see the 620R at GFS, with lots of good info for them.
- When asked whether an upgrade is possible by any client (and particularly one they know is serious) the answer should just be a simple "yes". The cost is then another matter to be discussed.
It's silly that this stuff winds me up so much, but working in sales, and loving the company, it's just very frustrating to see it done so badly.
With regards to your point about a Cayman, I think you're going a bit off topic, sure if you want a day to day car that's easy to live with and want to buy it from a suited sales person, a Caterham is probably not for you. I'm guessing Nigel isn't in this category though, I would think the VAST majority of Caterham owners will have a second car for day-to-day duties.
With regards to Caterham as a company though, neither of these points changes anything at all. Sounds like you've done an awesome job of getting a spectacular car, but Caterham have made exactly zero out of you doing it. Nigel is exactly the kind of guy they should be trying to market to! He's proven that he'll spend money with them! It sounds like there are just so many things wrong with the way they've dealt with him as a customer... It really winds me up actually, I love Caterham as a car company, and to see it being run poorly is very frustrating.
Things that seem obvious to me:
- New Sales Manager of Caterham Midlands should clearly have done some research (this is sales 101)
- Caterham should probably have invited their top clients (Nigel clearly included) to come see the 620R at GFS, with lots of good info for them.
- When asked whether an upgrade is possible by any client (and particularly one they know is serious) the answer should just be a simple "yes". The cost is then another matter to be discussed.
It's silly that this stuff winds me up so much, but working in sales, and loving the company, it's just very frustrating to see it done so badly.
I agree with most of what you say, however I do not think Caterham need to sell to potential owners as they have people coming forward and putting deposits down. I may be wrong but Caterham are never going to need to sell the seven based on its performance per pound. This is not so true with new non 7 models though, like the aero seven, the new Renault collaboration, SUV etc.
Like you I get annoyed that they should be more proactive with current owners but they are not interested. When I was at a Autosport I talked to the sales staff and they showed the same indifference to me as an owner as they did to Nigel however they probably knew I was unlikely to purchase a new one.
All I would say is do not give up on a car just on minor issues. If you want a Stack dash, get someone to fit one for you. I do not really see the point in keep buying newer models of Caterham every few years, they are all fairly similar and unless you are The Stig the difference between the R500 and R620 is not going to be that much, they are both going to be kin fast. Just enjoy what you have got, most people would give their right arm to own a R500.
Like you I get annoyed that they should be more proactive with current owners but they are not interested. When I was at a Autosport I talked to the sales staff and they showed the same indifference to me as an owner as they did to Nigel however they probably knew I was unlikely to purchase a new one.
All I would say is do not give up on a car just on minor issues. If you want a Stack dash, get someone to fit one for you. I do not really see the point in keep buying newer models of Caterham every few years, they are all fairly similar and unless you are The Stig the difference between the R500 and R620 is not going to be that much, they are both going to be kin fast. Just enjoy what you have got, most people would give their right arm to own a R500.
Guys,
Thanks very much for all the comments, but ultimately it's down to each individuals personal,preference.
I did not start this thread as a way to to have a pop at CC, as you know I have spent over £150k minimum on all,brand new CC cars.
All of your points are very valid, and CC really should think more about how to seek to new and existing customers too.
My real point in my original post was down to what you actually get for your £55k spend.
And to me it seems you get the usual top of the range CC car.
But it also seems a coat cutting excercise is also in play here too.
Once again, I don't want to chuck any company or individual under the bus,but suffice to say previous R300, R400, and R500 all had stack dash( some as an option) some standard, and aces shift lights too.
Now it seems these will no longer be supplied, and I have to say my source tells me it's for no other reason than the increase in costs from the two respective manufactures.
As has been raised by other parties, when we are at £54K plus for a weekend toy, there are lots of options to that type of buyer, and most of them cater to the fact that the buyer would expect a full,load of branded high end accessories included.
I am not sure, but to me it feels like CC are now. Rey aware of cost per build, and I don't personally believe they are now worth what they cost.
Please shoot me down in flames, but this is the reason I won't be buying a brand new 620R!
Thanks very much for all the comments, but ultimately it's down to each individuals personal,preference.
I did not start this thread as a way to to have a pop at CC, as you know I have spent over £150k minimum on all,brand new CC cars.
All of your points are very valid, and CC really should think more about how to seek to new and existing customers too.
My real point in my original post was down to what you actually get for your £55k spend.
And to me it seems you get the usual top of the range CC car.
But it also seems a coat cutting excercise is also in play here too.
Once again, I don't want to chuck any company or individual under the bus,but suffice to say previous R300, R400, and R500 all had stack dash( some as an option) some standard, and aces shift lights too.
Now it seems these will no longer be supplied, and I have to say my source tells me it's for no other reason than the increase in costs from the two respective manufactures.
As has been raised by other parties, when we are at £54K plus for a weekend toy, there are lots of options to that type of buyer, and most of them cater to the fact that the buyer would expect a full,load of branded high end accessories included.
I am not sure, but to me it feels like CC are now. Rey aware of cost per build, and I don't personally believe they are now worth what they cost.
Please shoot me down in flames, but this is the reason I won't be buying a brand new 620R!
Not really sure you can say the 620r has been done with a cost cutting basis. Most R500 Duratecs' were in the £50,000 area. With the 620R you get a better engine, 40bhp +, a superior gearbox and clutch assembly, better seats, carbon interior panels, improved cooling system, dry cell battery etc. I'm sure a little extra on a Stack dash would not make a great difference. Remember IVA has a large impact on cars these days.
nigelpugh7 said:
...
I am not sure, but to me it feels like CC are now. Rey aware of cost per build, and I don't personally believe they are now worth what they cost.
...
To be honest Nigel I think Caterham have always been acutely aware of what the individual parts cost etc and how to make mark up on them.I am not sure, but to me it feels like CC are now. Rey aware of cost per build, and I don't personally believe they are now worth what they cost.
...
Equally I don't think they've ever been worth what they cost objectively. But subjectively we all know very different.
It sounds like you're falling out of love with the marque for whatever reason. It happens. Just roll with it.
But I can't believe you wouldn't buy a 620R just because of the lack of Stack dash. Upgraditis is easily cured even on "top of the range" cars. If you're able (and willing) to spunk 55k on a Caterham, dropping an extra 2k-5k after you've bought it to put the variety of instruments you want in front of you on it hardly seems like a major biggie? Just take out the dash and ensure the changes are fully reversible. Then take the Gucci dash with you when you buy your next one.
(btw, I like my stack dash but it's not the last word in legibility.....especially when half the LCD panel goes tits up and the face of the instrument mists).
mic said:
Not really sure you can say the 620r has been done with a cost cutting basis. Most R500 Duratecs' were in the £50,000 area. With the 620R you get a better engine, 40bhp +, a superior gearbox and clutch assembly, better seats, carbon interior panels, improved cooling system, dry cell battery etc. I'm sure a little extra on a Stack dash would not make a great difference. Remember IVA has a large impact on cars these days.
Thanks Mic, i certainly agree with on the £50k range too!Out of interest what is different on the 620R engine, aside from the obvious supercharger? Has the crank and other engine internals been strengthened even further? On the CC website it just states,,we took the R500 engine and supercharged it?
Also did not know that the clutch was different, or that it had items like carbon interior panels or a dry cell battery either?
I am sure the little extra cost of the Stack dash would not make a difference either? Hence the reason lots of us are questioning why it's not standard, or even offered as an option?
And on the IVA front, R400 and R500's have been passing the new stricter IVA for several years, with no problem,so I don't think that is valid.
I do think the rumour that many if of have heard, that Stack increased their cost price to CC, and would not move on the price,,hence forcing the hand of CC to look for an alternative, and with the quality issues of the Stack units,,and slow repair times,,I suspect that was the nail in the coffin for Stack with CC.
Murph7355 said:
To be honest Nigel I think Caterham have always been acutely aware of what the individual parts cost etc and how to make mark up on them.
Equally I don't think they've ever been worth what they cost objectively. But subjectively we all know very different.
It sounds like you're falling out of love with the marque for whatever reason. It happens. Just roll with it.
But I can't believe you wouldn't buy a 620R just because of the lack of Stack dash. Upgraditis is easily cured even on "top of the range" cars. If you're able (and willing) to spunk 55k on a Caterham, dropping an extra 2k-5k after you've bought it to put the variety of instruments you want in front of you on it hardly seems like a major biggie? Just take out the dash and ensure the changes are fully reversible. Then take the Gucci dash with you when you buy your next one.
(btw, I like my stack dash but it's not the last word in legibility.....especially when half the LCD panel goes tits up and the face of the instrument mists).
Thanks, no it's not that I am falling out of love with Caterhams at all.Equally I don't think they've ever been worth what they cost objectively. But subjectively we all know very different.
It sounds like you're falling out of love with the marque for whatever reason. It happens. Just roll with it.
But I can't believe you wouldn't buy a 620R just because of the lack of Stack dash. Upgraditis is easily cured even on "top of the range" cars. If you're able (and willing) to spunk 55k on a Caterham, dropping an extra 2k-5k after you've bought it to put the variety of instruments you want in front of you on it hardly seems like a major biggie? Just take out the dash and ensure the changes are fully reversible. Then take the Gucci dash with you when you buy your next one.
(btw, I like my stack dash but it's not the last word in legibility.....especially when half the LCD panel goes tits up and the face of the instrument mists).
It's just that I can no longer justify a Caterham that in reality is going to cost close to £57K, then adding a not standard item at several thousands, plus the fact that once added the appeal of it being a factory standard car,,then it's all going against the reasons for buying 620R in the first place,namely that it's supposed to be the very best of the best Caterham, and should have all the very best options as standard too!
I did wish them good luck selling 620r models, I would buy one if I could afford it tomorrow, sadly I can no longer stretch my toy budget that far!
I think IVA is a bit of a movable feast though is it not? New tester starts at the local station and starts failing things on a whim, then Caterham have to change parts to avoid constant retests etc. If they were having issues with cars passing with Stack (pure speculation) then that is a big issue. You can't just swap instruments in an out like you can with an FIA bar due to the different dash configuration.
dino ferrana said:
I think IVA is a bit of a movable feast though is it not? New tester starts at the local station and starts failing things on a whim, then Caterham have to change parts to avoid constant retests etc. If they were having issues with cars passing with Stack (pure speculation) then that is a big issue. You can't just swap instruments in an out like you can with an FIA bar due to the different dash configuration.
A very valid point, although I am not sure what even an inexperienced IVA tester would actually find to fail on a Stack unit?Can't see it being sharp edges or radius's,,perhaps the small display of the MPH being obscured by the speedo?
I seem to recall even standard dials also having that issue at some IVA stations too though?
This is exactly why i and many others have taken the total opposite approach to trading in and replacing with the latest model every
2 yrs or so, I have stuck with my 2003 R300 that i had from new and after a few years of ownership stripped the car down and re built exactly to my own spec Engine, Gearbox, Suspension, Dash layout etc using specialist parts that are far superior than the cost cutting approach that Caterham adopt. There is something very rewarding seeing you project evolve in front of you.
2 yrs or so, I have stuck with my 2003 R300 that i had from new and after a few years of ownership stripped the car down and re built exactly to my own spec Engine, Gearbox, Suspension, Dash layout etc using specialist parts that are far superior than the cost cutting approach that Caterham adopt. There is something very rewarding seeing you project evolve in front of you.
The only way to get the Caterham you want is to build it yourself.
Even then they are a total nightmare to deal with. I´ve had countless wrong/missing parts delivered. I can remember having three wrong deliveries in a row.
Caterham wouldn´t sell me a CSR with a spare wheel option! I´ve seen countless since. That was two years after dropping 32k on a brand new factory built R300.
I struggled to get a test drive, even though I was flying over to U.K. especially.
All they where interested in was "will you be in a position to put down a deposit?"
Well as it happened, if you can´t put a loop of metal on the back of it for me, on a chassis that´s still hand built, no I bloody well aren't!
It may seem trivial, but it´s the principle.
Even then they are a total nightmare to deal with. I´ve had countless wrong/missing parts delivered. I can remember having three wrong deliveries in a row.
Caterham wouldn´t sell me a CSR with a spare wheel option! I´ve seen countless since. That was two years after dropping 32k on a brand new factory built R300.
I struggled to get a test drive, even though I was flying over to U.K. especially.
All they where interested in was "will you be in a position to put down a deposit?"
Well as it happened, if you can´t put a loop of metal on the back of it for me, on a chassis that´s still hand built, no I bloody well aren't!
It may seem trivial, but it´s the principle.
So getting a Caterham through IVA with a Stack is not possible/ almost impossible according to Caterham Cars so why are you saying it is down to cost cutting? Or have I missed something?
As Mick said best thing is to build your own perfect car. Not really sure why people get obsessed with keeping things "factory standard " apart from it maybe being worth slightly more when you come to sell it or having the option for Caterham to buy it back from you? Just buy a kit from Caterham, or a standard factory car and modify it, they are all subtly different. If I was loaded I would ask Mick Atree if he would build me another R660 like the one he sold to James.
As Mick said best thing is to build your own perfect car. Not really sure why people get obsessed with keeping things "factory standard " apart from it maybe being worth slightly more when you come to sell it or having the option for Caterham to buy it back from you? Just buy a kit from Caterham, or a standard factory car and modify it, they are all subtly different. If I was loaded I would ask Mick Atree if he would build me another R660 like the one he sold to James.
Orange Blackbird said:
As Mick said best thing is to build your own perfect car. Not really sure why people get obsessed with keeping things "factory standard " apart from it maybe being worth slightly more when you come to sell it or having the option for Caterham to buy it back from you? Just buy a kit from Caterham, or a standard factory car and modify it, they are all subtly different. If I was loaded I would ask Mick Atree if he would build me another R660 like the one he sold to James.
Agreed. CC build some great cars but they have to draw a balance. Is the 620 the best it could be, -No. Is it a bonkers, performace bargain -Yes.If you don't like something, change it but don't snipe at the manufacturer trying to make a profit, FFS! BTW, making cars more individual by increasing the options list massivly increases the pressure on a small manufacturer.
Kudos to all those with a 620R on order, you have an awesome car on the way. Not having a Stack or Aces doesn't mean s
t, other than you won't have to experince Satck's customer service - lolA shame Nigel sees the end in sight for his Caterham ownership, all those cars and He still never learned to drive one properly.
James.S said:
Agreed. CC build some great cars but they have to draw a balance. Is the 620 the best it could be, -No. Is it a bonkers, performace bargain -Yes.
If you don't like something, change it but don't snipe at the manufacturer trying to make a profit, FFS! BTW, making cars more individual by increasing the options list massivly increases the pressure on a small manufacturer.
Kudos to all those with a 620R on order, you have an awesome car on the way. Not having a Stack or Aces doesn't mean st, other than you won't have to experince Satck's customer service - lol
A shame Nigel sees the end in sight for his Caterham ownership, all those cars and He still never learned to drive one properly.
I am not really having a snipe at Caterham James!!If you don't like something, change it but don't snipe at the manufacturer trying to make a profit, FFS! BTW, making cars more individual by increasing the options list massivly increases the pressure on a small manufacturer.
Kudos to all those with a 620R on order, you have an awesome car on the way. Not having a Stack or Aces doesn't mean s
t, other than you won't have to experince Satck's customer service - lolA shame Nigel sees the end in sight for his Caterham ownership, all those cars and He still never learned to drive one properly.
And as far as not being able to drive one properly, i use mine for what it was intended, having fun, thats what really matters to me!!
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