Caterham newbie / another 'which 7?' thread

[Pete247]

Hello all,

Caterham newbie here! I have recently decided to start looking for my very first seven so I thought I would introduce myself and also get some advice as to what to go for as my first seven. I know there are probably tons of 'Which 7 to buy' threads out there so forgive me for starting another, but as there is a whole plethora of engines/models/specifications, and it represents quite a big financial decision for me, I wanted to actually engage in some conversation and get some specific/tailored advice.

I had never really looked into Caterhams until the last couple of months, other than outside knowledge and watching them on top gear etc. When I first made the decision to get one, I thought I'll save about £10k and get a nice second hand one. I soon realised for that money your looking at modest power and/or 20+ years old. So I though, ok let's see how much I'd need for a seven that I wouldn't mind owning, say 5-15 years old, not too many miles and moderate power (140-180bhp) and I realised that I'd need between £15-20k! 'Jesus!' I said to myself. Just out of curiosity I thought I'd have a peak at new ones. To my delight I saw you could get entry level Roadsport kit for a meagre £20k. Great, it's decided then! I'm now getting a new kit and building it myself!! It didn't take long, however, after doing some research into specifications etc, that I have gone from a £20k Roadsport to wanting a Supersport R as my ultimate dream car. With the desired extras I'm looking at a not-so-modest £28k! However, I'd be looking at least 18months to save the necessary funds, more realistically 2 years. Initially I thought I could do that no probs. Then it dawned on me....I've just made a huge sacrifice in selling my Clio, lost all my dignity in driving round in a Swift and all for no immediate reward. All of a sudden I could not live with the prospect of driving around in a Swift for 2 years with no toy to play with to make up for it. So, after all that I have now come back to the idea of getting a second hand seven with a budget of £15k. I keep reading how well sevens hold their value so I see this as almost an investment, getting on the 'Caterham ladder' so to speak in almost exactly the same way as you have to get a pokey 1 bed house before buying your 4 bed family home. This route just seems to make more sense! If you think I am doing the right thing then please let me know?

Anyway, (for those of you still reading - sorry for the ramble) thanks for your time and I'd appreciate any comments you may have before I start talking about what to buy with my £15k

Pete

Edited by Smiffy7 on Thursday 13th March 07:57

Edited by Smiffy7 on Wednesday 19th March 07:58

[framerateuk]

My first comment would be, you don't need as much Caterham as you think you do
A little power goes a long way, I was amazed at how well a 125 Roadsport went when I hired one in Caterham South (something I would recommend you do).

I bought my Roadsport 140 just over a year ago and it's been fantastic. Yes, I could have gone faster, but I'm learning how to make the most of it, and to be honest, on the road you don't really *need* anything faster, and on trackdays, it's proper fun without getting into scary fast territory. It still out-brakes and out-corners everything else. It's a good mix of a track/touring spec. It has comfy leather seats, carpets and hood, but also has a trackday roll bar, 6 speed box, superlight suspension and big brakes.

15k would easily get you good K-Series or 125 Sigma. You'll get lots of opinions for both. I love my Sigma, it's been very reliable and the power delivery is excellent. There are also quite a few tuning options for the Sigma these days, though the K-Series is still better served in this regard.

Just to give you an idea, my usual car is a Megane 250, and the Caterham feels miles faster, even if in reality they're probably pretty well matched.

Edited by framerateuk on Friday 7th March 16:02

[ghibbett]

To echo what Framerate has said, I would also very much recommend hiring one. I hired two before buying and it really helped with my decision.

Regarding performance, I have a C63 AMG with 507 bhp and up to the legal limit found a standard Roadsport 125 to be quick enough.

As for your 15k, I reckon you'd struggle to get a Sigma engined car, although if you did it would be a safe financial bet. Failing that, a 1.6k supersport (138bhp) with a 6 speed 'box would also hold its value (I expect, unless you put stellar mileage on it, it prob wouldn't depreciate at all).

But to go back to the beginning, do rent one. It's not cheap but it is very worthwhile.

[ajroberts]

I would say rent one to begin with, I did that and made my decision to get one when I handed the keys back.

I had about the same as you to spend on a 7. Ended up going to Woodcote sport cars and got a 2001 supersprint with only 95 bhp and it out handles and accelerates better than my mates Porsche carrera. Though top speed he wins. I have the 6 speed gearbox and love it. Has given me a few problems but less than my old corsa did and less dangerous ones too (the corsa's wheel fell off).

If I was going for another would be the following;
140-180bhp (fuel injected)
6speed gearbox
QR steering wheel
Big brakes
adjustable shocks

Hope that helps.

[BertBert]

I'm a big fan of relatively small horsepower caterhams. They are just brilliant. It was how it was meant to be. All this R6whatever is just crazy talk.

I hadn't driven a 7 for a couple of years and drove a 120bhp ex academy car that had been wide-tracked at the front and a 6 speed box put in. What a fantastic car! Utterly brilliant. You don't even need the widetrack and 6 speeds (although I love the 6 speeder).

Look at this http://www.blatchat.com/t.asp?id=238492 for 10k. Honestly what's not to like?
Bert

[Mostro]

Your criteria are very similar to mine when I was looking last year, 140-180bhp, £15-18k and a more fast road / track focus than comfort / touring. I agonised *a lot* over 1.6K Roadsport Supersports, 1.6K Superlights and the occasional R300 that dipped into the price bracket. 125/140 Sigmas may also be available.

I initially fell into the trap of chasing power and thought I wanted an R300 above the others,but eventually realised that any of them would deliver the thrills and ownership pleasure that I wanted so in the end I resolved to trust the advice on here and on Blatchat (Lotus 7 Club) and worry more about spec and condition than anything else. In the end, a throttle-bodied Superlight fitted the bill, great spec, good colour (I think) and a good deal. It's certainly plenty fast enough for a first Caterham on the road.

So I'd certainly second the advice I received: set a budget limit, decide what you *do* want in terms of the basic setup: windscreen, cage, seats, colour, heater etc and then get the best spec & condition you can afford and be open-minded about the on-paper spec of the model. They're all Sevens at the end of the day and you won't truly know what you want or need until you have one. Depreciation is minimal if at all so you can always trade up in the future. And frankly having any Caterham in your life is a fantastic thing.

Edited by Mostro on Saturday 8th March 11:38

[coppice]

Don't agonise about not having enough power; my current one has lots and my first had not much but they are far more alike than they are to any non Seven- supercar or not . You don't need huge power because ultimately they are about feel(grip , steering , response, braking ) more than acceleration , let alone top speed where just about any Seven will not keep up with a diesel repmobile on high speed cruising. Even where they can .. well you just don't want to.But a dry , smooth B road and you are in heaven . Forget the wet and bumps- they're rubbish !

[K800 RUM]

I enjoyed reading your deliberations.
Your £15K budget gets you into earlier sigma powered cars, although perhaps not from caterham themselves.
It's what I would go for, then again I would say that as I have been very happy with my 2007 125 Roadsport homebuilt.
Happy hunting & keeps us updated on your purchase.
PS....join the Lotus 7 club.

[Helluvaname]

I'd echo the above, especially being able to have fun with not a lot of power.

I'd also really recommend joining the Lotus 7 Club, and getting along to a local meeting. As you said "I wanted to actually engage in some conversation and get some specific/tailored advice" and you'll find some very knowledgeable and experienced owners to discuss ideas with there.

The social side of the L7C is really good as well with quite a lot of events, meets, blats, etc, and you'll probably save your membership fee in insureance discouts - plus as a pre-purchase cost it's worht it's weight in gold!

Good luck in the search and you'll enjoy whatever you get

[Pete247]

Thank you to all for the above comments.

I know some of you mentioned about hiring a caterham, well I have already made enquiries with Caterham South to do just this. The only problem was they didn't like the speeding points I acquired in 2010, and despite me pleading that they were all over 3 years old they couldn't accept it! I was quite disappointed as I was really looking forward to it and trying one out finally. Do you think I will be able to arrange several test drives of various cars with them instead??

Looking to which seven to buy, I totally appreciate the near unanimous advice along the lines of 'you don't need a lot of power to have fun', and I don't for one minute doubt the truth of the statement. However, if I was to get a seven with less than 140bhp, I'm fairly certain that after my first track day I'll wish I had more. I'm planning to keep my first seven for 3-5 years, so I think 140bhp will my preferred starting point. Off course I'll reserve the right to change my mind until I actually drive one!

So it would appear that on a budget of £15k I could be looking at a Caterham in one of 3 broad categories:
1) <140bhp, 5-10years old, <15,000miles, mostly 1.4-1.6 K-series (not seen any sigmas at this price)
2) 140-165bhp, 10-20years old, <20,000miles, mostly 1.6-1.8 K-series
3) 165-200+bhp, 15-25years old, up to 20,000+miles, 2.0 Vauxhall or 2.0 Zetec

Which of the above will likely hold most of its value in 3-5years time?

The other area which is really confusing for anyone new to Caterhams is the knowing the exact difference between spec models! For the current crop available you can view all the specs on the Caterham website, so I know the current Roadsport, Supersport & R400/500 inside out. Can anyone shed any light of the older generation of models/specs? I read on a K-series guide on Pistonheads that they put the engine in the following Caterhams:
- Classic
- Supersport
- Roadsport
- Sprint
- Superlight (+ R)
- VVC
- Clubsport
- Autosport
- Tracksport
....just a few then! Again, any of the above models likely to hold more value?

Regarding buying from private vs trade, are there any pros/cons other than the obvious for buying any other car, e.g. price?

Thanks again

[SidewaysSi]

Echo what others have said-spend less and with the change do some driving courses. You will get far more enjoyment doing that than spunking every penny and more on a top of the range, new Seven. It's usually a case if diminishing returns too...

[Grubbster]

True there are many variants of the 7 out there but the specs are quite blurred as people take options and modify them a fair bit. For example my car would be listed as a 'Roadsport 140' but it now has 230bhp, LSD, big brakes, nitrons, lots of carbon etc so hard to compare. But there is certainly more interest in particular models - Superlights and R's tend to hold their value well and for you I think a Superlight R300 (K series) would make an excellent first 7 if you can find a nice one within budget. A lively 160 bhp, 6 speed box, maybe with LSD (this was optional) is probably one of the best all rounders in my opinion. The slightly older Superlight R has quite a bit more power (190) and again is a very popular choice. Don't discount the lower powered Superlght (K series 133) as with a 6 speed box, aeroscreen it still goes very nicely and easy to sell on (should you want to trade up to something more powerful after a year or 2)

You'll probably struggle to find either of these in budget so a K series Roadsport might be more likely, but if you can find one that's been sensibly upgraded you'll get more car for the money. I reckon you could find a sweet K series Roadsport 1.6 for a chunk under budget, then have a couple of thousand to fund a sensible engine upgrade (to 140-150 ish). This would probably mean living with a 5 speed box but to be honest that's not the end of the world.

Big power Vauxhalls probably make excellent value but I've no experience personally. You could get an ex-academy sigma 1.6 for the money (I just sold mine within your budget), but by the sound of it you'd soon want a bit more oomph. They are great value cars but pretty minimal spec.

Finally as others have said - seat time and instruction will make the biggest difference, I've seen well pedalled low powered 7's lap circuits quicker than some people manage in their R400's/500's.

[framerateuk]

Pete247 said:

So it would appear that on a budget of £15k I could be looking at a Caterham in one of 3 broad categories:
1) <140bhp, 5-10years old, <15,000miles, mostly 1.4-1.6 K-series (not seen any sigmas at this price)
2) 140-165bhp, 10-20years old, <20,000miles, mostly 1.6-1.8 K-series
3) 165-200+bhp, 15-25years old, up to 20,000+miles, 2.0 Vauxhall or 2.0 Zetec

Interesting that you've noted mileage! 7s tend to get low mileage because they're rarely used. In fact, I've seen cars up to 10 years old being sold with just 1 or 2k on them. That's more of a concern in my books. I'd rather something that's had a few miles put on it to show, firstly, that it's been bolted together properly, and secondly, the best way to keep a car running well is to use it! My 09 came with 11k on it. It's on 16k and I fully expect it to be over 20k by this time next year. I found the mileage on the car quite encouraging when I bought it - it shows it's been used and not left sat rotting in a garage

Keep in mind that the engines are designed for far heavier cars and a rarely stressed in a 7.

Edited by framerateuk on Monday 10th March 09:00

[Pete247]

Thanks framerateuk for the advice, so low mileage is not always best in a Caterham! I see the logic in that.

Grubbster said:

True there are many variants of the 7 out there but the specs are quite blurred as people take options and modify them a fair bit. For example my car would be listed as a 'Roadsport 140' but it now has 230bhp, LSD, big brakes, nitrons, lots of carbon etc so hard to compare. But there is certainly more interest in particular models - Superlights and R's tend to hold their value well and for you I think a Superlight R300 (K series) would make an excellent first 7 if you can find a nice one within budget. A lively 160 bhp, 6 speed box, maybe with LSD (this was optional) is probably one of the best all rounders in my opinion. The slightly older Superlight R has quite a bit more power (190) and again is a very popular choice. Don't discount the lower powered Superlght (K series 133) as with a 6 speed box, aeroscreen it still goes very nicely and easy to sell on (should you want to trade up to something more powerful after a year or 2)

You'll probably struggle to find either of these in budget so a K series Roadsport might be more likely, but if you can find one that's been sensibly upgraded you'll get more car for the money. I reckon you could find a sweet K series Roadsport 1.6 for a chunk under budget, then have a couple of thousand to fund a sensible engine upgrade (to 140-150 ish). This would probably mean living with a 5 speed box but to be honest that's not the end of the world.

Big power Vauxhalls probably make excellent value but I've no experience personally. You could get an ex-academy sigma 1.6 for the money (I just sold mine within your budget), but by the sound of it you'd soon want a bit more oomph. They are great value cars but pretty minimal spec.

Finally as others have said - seat time and instruction will make the biggest difference, I've seen well pedalled low powered 7's lap circuits quicker than some people manage in their R400's/500's.

Thanks for the suggestions. The Thought of an older R300 leaves me salivating, but like you say price is an issue - I've not seen a superlight for under £17.5k.

Although I would be doing most miles on the road I would like to try and do 2-3 track days per year, just to give you an idea of the level of 'track spec' I'd be looking for. But essentially my choice spec will include:
Lower floor
Q/R steering wheel
Harnesses
FIA roll bar
Wide track
Adjustable suspension
LSD
Heater
Weather gear
Which of the above are the more easier 'add ons' and which are more economical just to have on the car from the beginning? In other words, which should I be more concerned about being on the car when buying it?


What are peoples thoughts on ex academy cars? The more I look the more I like this...
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/c...
£3k under budget which would leave enough to get a decent upgrade later on. I see you can tune to a 1.6K to 155bhp for £2.5k fitted. Apart from a heater (and power) this seems to tick all the boxes! The advert specifies:
- 3.92 open differential
- Apollo tank for extra oil capacity
- Bilstein M1 race dampers
What is the technical significance of the above item over 'stock' items? Other than the obvious extra oil and firmer dampers answers, rather what difference does it make to living with/driving the car?

Edited by Pete247 on Monday 10th March 13:07

[Pete247]

BertBert said:

I'm a big fan of relatively small horsepower caterhams. They are just brilliant. It was how it was meant to be. All this R6whatever is just crazy talk.

I hadn't driven a 7 for a couple of years and drove a 120bhp ex academy car that had been wide-tracked at the front and a 6 speed box put in. What a fantastic car! Utterly brilliant. You don't even need the widetrack and 6 speeds (although I love the 6 speeder).

Look at this http://www.blatchat.com/t.asp?id=238492 for 10k. Honestly what's not to like?
Bert

Thanks BertBert, do you know if this is still for sale? Any pics available? Regarding the following spec:
- Adjustable suspension kit (front & rear)
- Race Chassis with Side impact protection and internal bracing system.
- Honeycomb driver-side floor, and fuel tank protection.
Is any/all the above standard on all 'academy' spec cars?

[Pete247]

Helluvaname said:

I'd also really recommend joining the Lotus 7 Club, and getting along to a local meeting. As you said "I wanted to actually engage in some conversation and get some specific/tailored advice" and you'll find some very knowledgeable and experienced owners to discuss ideas with there.

The social side of the L7C is really good as well with quite a lot of events, meets, blats, etc, and you'll probably save your membership fee in insureance discouts - plus as a pre-purchase cost it's worht it's weight in gold!

Thanks! I did try registering to post on the Blatchat forum. Am I right in thinking you need to pay the £50 membership to even just post on the forum?

[coppice]

Yes you must . £1 a week - if you can buy a Seven you can probably run to that.

[ghibbett]

Pete247 said:

What are peoples thoughts on ex academy cars? The more I look the more I like this...
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/c...

Gotta admit, on paper that looks a real winner. I cannot imagine you'd lose any money on that at all. Engine can be DVA'd and the diff, whilst not being an LSD, is at least a 3.92 so will certainly improve acceleration. For £12k that's a winner in my book.

[Pete247]

ghibbett said:

Gotta admit, on paper that looks a real winner. I cannot imagine you'd lose any money on that at all. Engine can be DVA'd and the diff, whilst not being an LSD, is at least a 3.92 so will certainly improve acceleration. For £12k that's a winner in my book.

You've got me all excited now!! So what exactly is the difference between this and a standard Roadsport? You mention the diff, how does this, errrr, differ from the stock item? Also, the Bilstein M1 race dampers, presumably these are uprated from that found on the Roadsport? And the Apollo tank?

Any other difference I should know about?

Is a heater easily retro fitted?

[framerateuk]

The K-Series cars can suffer from oil starvation on track, so the Apollo tank is a cheaper alternative to a dry sump where it pumps oil around the engine. They're very popular for the K-Series and do their job well.

The dampers will be higher spec than the standard ones. It all depends how they're setup but I would imagine they're pretty good.