Caterham 6 to Sadev Anyone done it?
Discussion
Update time!
I took the car to Northampton Motorsport to do some mapping of the throttle bodies (another story, another thread). While there, we tried some of the different MBE stratergies for the powershift. We found the torque reduction and torque recovery caused backfiring:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgSjbKBDZpI
Ingnition cut was smoother. We believe what was happening was that the late ignition of torque reduction was happening when the exhaust valve was open. This resulted in the fuel being ignited as it entered the exhaust. Ignition cut meant the source of ignition never occured.
Here's the result on a very wet and windy track:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yTtumXmG0s
So than brings the project to a close, but I will report back lap time comparisons once the weather improves.
I took the car to Northampton Motorsport to do some mapping of the throttle bodies (another story, another thread). While there, we tried some of the different MBE stratergies for the powershift. We found the torque reduction and torque recovery caused backfiring:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgSjbKBDZpI
Ingnition cut was smoother. We believe what was happening was that the late ignition of torque reduction was happening when the exhaust valve was open. This resulted in the fuel being ignited as it entered the exhaust. Ignition cut meant the source of ignition never occured.
Here's the result on a very wet and windy track:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yTtumXmG0s
So than brings the project to a close, but I will report back lap time comparisons once the weather improves.
Edited by DCL on Sunday 29th March 17:16
With the first competitive event last weekend, and my first time driving the car in the dry. Here's a few full chat gear changes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwW7GzM33J0
Despite some poor driving on my part, a third in class and a few 10 ths of my PB without too much difficulty. The car is easily quicker, at a guess at least a second a lap. Flat-shifts just get better with the higher RPM - a few adjustments still to tested but that brings the project to a close.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwW7GzM33J0
Despite some poor driving on my part, a third in class and a few 10 ths of my PB without too much difficulty. The car is easily quicker, at a guess at least a second a lap. Flat-shifts just get better with the higher RPM - a few adjustments still to tested but that brings the project to a close.
Edited by DCL on Thursday 23 April 20:56
Yes, down shifts are with the clutch. You can get away without, but not reliably. Early days and still learning, but what I seem to be adopting is knocking down the gears late under braking. If you can drag the clutch a little it seems smoother, but that's easier said than done! Interestingly, up-shifting on the limiter (as in the video) works a treat. I suspect because it relaxes the drive train just before you change.
DCL said:
Yes, down shifts are with the clutch. You can get away without, but not reliably. Early days and still learning, but what I seem to be adopting is knocking down the gears late under braking. If you can drag the clutch a little it seems smoother, but that's easier said than done! Interestingly, up-shifting on the limiter (as in the video) works a treat. I suspect because it relaxes the drive train just before you change.
I used to have a Sadev box in my old Clio cup car. Clutchless downshifts are fine, but you have to be firm with the lever. If you left foot brake into corners to keep the front tucked in, you can sort of blip on each downshift if you keep your right foot on the throttle, which under braking reduces the back torque on the dogs to make engagement easier. You can also get back on the throttle a LOT earlier and use your left foot to modulate the power. You may need to play with brake balance a bit to allow you to do this.
The box should (may) have a load cell in the shifter which will provide a signal to your ECU. Does the ECU has an input for flatshifting to retard the ignition a bit, then ramp it back to normal levels?
As per earlier posts, I'm using Geartronics for the barrel position, driving the MBE powershift. It's initiated with the Sadev switch on the gearbox. I ran various strategies on the rolling road at Northampton Motorsport, and we concluded that simple ignition cut was the best. But there are many options, not all of which we had time to test, so I might revisit that at some stage.
DCL said:
As per earlier posts, I'm using Geartronics for the barrel position, driving the MBE powershift. It's initiated with the Sadev switch on the gearbox. I ran various strategies on the rolling road at Northampton Motorsport, and we concluded that simple ignition cut was the best. But there are many options, not all of which we had time to test, so I might revisit that at some stage.
Sorry, hadn't read the entire thread...Anything Neil W does is very well thought out, so your 'box is in safe hands.
Did Steve W supply the Sadev box? If so, give him a bell re clutchless downshifting. Do you have an "autoblip" built into the "powershift" system (air or solenoid solution btw?)
The box will do exactly what you ask of it, I run a specialist components ECU K20 Honda with a Geartronics GCU linked in my 7, seamless full or partial clutch less upshifts and seamless clutch less downshifts auto blip at any RPM, I never fitted my gear lever, although I do look at it lovely engineering with the Geartronics GCU it has never missed a shift up or down.I can call for 1st from 6th whilst braking hard from 120 to ? the GCU selects each gear incredably fast and my hands never leave the wheel, no clunks no bangs it really is that good. Steve at SW says the condition of boxes that are controlled by proper GCUs are very good, they can tell if the box has been operated by a load cell/ driver. I've got 4.5K on my box now, I've got an inline filter on my cooler lines and a magnetic bung and never seen any debris.
It's half way through the season now and I can't really imagine driving the car without the Sadev or flatshift. So with no real issues to contend with, I've decided to crack on with the long term goals of the project and purchased a full paddleshift set-up from Geartronics.
As the car is used mainly for sprint events, I've opted for a high pressure bottle supply. This simplifies the installation and saves significant weight, but could be changed to a compressor relatively simply. The main challenge will be clutchless downshifts using a the throttle blipper. Having studied the software, it is clear that some clever stuff goes on. Looking forward to getting stuck in to the installation over the next few months.
As the car is used mainly for sprint events, I've opted for a high pressure bottle supply. This simplifies the installation and saves significant weight, but could be changed to a compressor relatively simply. The main challenge will be clutchless downshifts using a the throttle blipper. Having studied the software, it is clear that some clever stuff goes on. Looking forward to getting stuck in to the installation over the next few months.
What does appear to be missing from your kit though is an extension that fits on the Sadev gear selector arm extends about 30mm and the shift cylinder to selector lever rod,mine was made by MOG in Germany, compliments the beautiful Sadev CNC work, it makes Quaife look like exactly what it is.... agricultural in comparison I dont run a gear lever and be careful about moisture in the air tank as mine does get it and I drain it out regularly.
k20erham said:
What does appear to be missing from your kit though is an extension that fits on the Sadev gear selector arm extends about 30mm and the shift cylinder to selector lever rod,mine was made by MOG in Germany, compliments the beautiful Sadev CNC work, it makes Quaife look like exactly what it is.... agricultural in comparison I dont run a gear lever and be careful about moisture in the air tank as mine does get it and I drain it out regularly.
That's interesting thanks for the info. I know the actuator is the long stroke version and I've got a figure for the travel I need to achieve (and the instructions suggest extending the lever if necessary). SWR do a fitting a kit but I didn't order that (yet) as I wanted to explore a few ideas of my own first. Because it is a bottle supply, it needs to be charged to 4500 psi with a source of dry high pressure air, Geartronics suggest a SCUBA tank, but several industrial product are available too.Kiltie said:
Do you have a feel for how frequently you'll have to charge the tank? ... say, in terms of KH laps?
I've been told 500+ shifts on a full charge, but if it's charged from another bottle, then I'm unlikely to be able to fully charge it, so so perhaps 300+ shifts, or 30 KH laps. I suspect it'll be a case of refilling it every time I put fuel in it. If it runs out, I'll still have the gear stick and flatshift backup.
Wow! A lot going on there! Is that NOS in there too?
Thanks for posting the picture - the layout is very similar to the way my project seems to be going.
My Car is used for sprints, so every gram counts. The bottle is very light (carbon fibre) and it saves about 3 KG. That's over 6 BHP on the power to weight ratio, so worth doing. But I understand what you're saying. I could retrofit one if I change my mind.
Thanks for posting the picture - the layout is very similar to the way my project seems to be going.
My Car is used for sprints, so every gram counts. The bottle is very light (carbon fibre) and it saves about 3 KG. That's over 6 BHP on the power to weight ratio, so worth doing. But I understand what you're saying. I could retrofit one if I change my mind.
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