What would you buy? Details below Order now placed

[LawrenceR]

Hi All,

I have approx £30k to spend on my next caterham, my last was a 1.9k 210 bhp which I kept for 4 years.

It has to be a duratec, have a 6 speed box, dry sump, and LSD, be in a colour that is visible on the road.
And finally be quite enough for track days.

Ideally it will have a lowered drivers floor, tillets, and quick rack, but these last three are not essential or can be added later.


Options

I can either buy a new supersport R and spec the sump and box.

Or

Stretch the budget and buy a new R400 and be very strict with the other options

Or

Try and find a nice second hand R400/R300 or even R500


If I go for a R300/Supersport R will I miss the 35 bhp?


Any thoughts or know of any cars coming on the market that fit my tight requirements?

Any replies welcome.

[coppice]

Secondhand R400 with roller barrels if you can find one. Mine's not for sale.. .

[scz4]

This is something I've been thinking (dreaming) of recently so should be interested.

For me if I bought the Supersport R I know for sure I'd end up upgrading to R400 power levels at some point, and the 6 speed it a must. Plus all the other little bits like bigger brakes etc. Therefore I'd end up spending just as much, if not more, but still only have a Supersport R to sell at the other side. So overall it would be more cost effective to buy the R400. Or so I tell myself.

The only thing that puts me off the R400 is the dry sump. I'm concerned about the maintenance and complexity of it. For me a R400 with a wet sump would be perfect. I have no plans to race, just a few track days a year and weekend blasts.

Plus with the R400 you get the Watts Linkage rear end which is something you can't upgrade to. I believe this works better on bumpy B roads, plus has more adjust-ability.

[cwin]

scz4 said:

This is something I've been thinking (dreaming) of recently so should be interested.

For me if I bought the Supersport R I know for sure I'd end up upgrading to R400 power levels at some point, and the 6 speed it a must. Plus all the other little bits like bigger brakes etc. Therefore I'd end up spending just as much, if not more, but still only have a Supersport R to sell at the other side. So overall it would be more cost effective to buy the R400. Or so I tell myself.

The only thing that puts me off the R400 is the dry sump. I'm concerned about the maintenance and complexity of it. For me a R400 with a wet sump would be perfect. I have no plans to race, just a few track days a year and weekend blasts.

Plus with the R400 you get the Watts Linkage rear end which is something you can't upgrade to. I believe this works better on bumpy B roads, plus has more adjust-ability.

The dry sump has no more maintenance over a wet sump just looks after your engine on track days, I have seen engines go on track days at certain circuits like Malory Park were oil starvation has killed them ,

[tomwoodis]

Well... Having just bought a SuperSport R I can tell you that I went through a similar thought process. In the end, because I wanted to build it myself and 30k really was my limit I felt I had no choice but to opt for the SuperSport. I'm already thinking about when I might upgrade the power and am stuck in two minds about what to do. Part of me thinks I should just enjoy it for what it is, keep it a couple of years and then sell it on as a bog standard SuperSport spec. The other part of me thinks that the 5 speed box is actually a nicer box with the Duratec engine if the cars use is predominantly road based. I then think to myself will anyone actually care if I go ahead and upgrade the engine to the r400 spec and leave the rest as it is. If I think the resale value is going to take a nasty hit then I'd probably be more inclined to keep it and then shift it on when I want to upgrade. I could then look for an r400 or r500.

I can imagine that a standard SuperSport R will be quite easy to shift in a few years as there aren't many about.

Looking at your particular scenario given what I've said, surely the obvious answer is to get the r400 right off the bat?

A supersport R is going to need a £3k box, £2k dry sump system adding to it to be what you're after. For £35k you could by a low mileage R400 with the spec you want without all the faff.

Depends if you like the idea of upgrading the car though too. Personally I quite like all that so might just take the risk and do the upgrades to my existing car.

For you though, R400 sounds like the right answer.

[SpeedYellow]

Or you could just go for something like this right from the start? My experience is the R500 is very similar to the R400 until you get higher in the rev range on the Duratec where the extra power comes in. Couldn't see any disadvantages and they come with all of the toys which saves a fortune in the long run?

r500 in classifieds

[BigCol]

Unless, like Tom and me, you really want to build the car, go used... given your previous car, a R400 (or more powerful variant) would be the way to go.

[R300XXX]

R300/R400 would be my choice, I was looking for an R400 when I stumbled across an R300 duratec, really happy with it 3 months later. I used to have an R300 k series a few years ago. The duratec has a lot more low down grunt than the k series. You will be more than happy with either I'm sure. Some kind soul would take you out for run in there's to give you an idea I'm sure, where abouts are you?

[scz4]

cwin said:

The dry sump has no more maintenance over a wet sump just looks after your engine on track days, I have seen engines go on track days at certain circuits like Malory Park were oil starvation has killed them ,

Thanks for your input. I assumed with all the moving parts, belts etc, the potential for something to go wrong compared to a wet sump was greater if just using it 95% road, 5% track as I would.

LawrenceR, are you planning on building if a new car? If not, a factory built R400 will be £39k with the same options I'd want.

I've read a lot about 5 vs 6 speed for a Duratec car, so the other option if a self build is buy a 5 speed (with a long first) and sell the new 6 speed to claw back around £1500 or so.

Edited by scz4 on Sunday 20th July 17:12

[LawrenceR]

Thanks for all the input guys. Keep it coming

Spedyellow
w.r.t the IRS car I would be very tempted if it had a standard back end. I am sure it is very well engineered but I would worry about resale.

Scz4
I am happy to build myself so I see a new painted R400 at about £34k and given I would not have to pay until I pick it up I could save a bit more.

Tomwoodis
I do think I would miss the power and want to upgrade.... But that is got to be half the fun?

[scz4]

LawrenceR said:

Thanks for all the input guys. Keep it coming

Scz4
I am happy to build myself so I see a new painted R400 at about £34k and given I would not have to pay until I pick it up I could save a bit more.

I understand Caterham have a 7 to 8 month waiting list at the moment. Never got into the details, at least 18 months from that, but I assume they request a 10% deposit when you place the order? I assume Caterham only finance factory built cars?

What spec are you thinking?

My perfect R400 would be:
Non Metallic Orange or Yellow
Full Roll Cage
13" 6" front, 8" rear.
Black Aero fuel cap
12Volt Power Socket
Superlight Decal Pack

So pretty much £36k collected in kit form.

Then upgrade to roller TB's and decat when bored with 210bhp. Unlikely though, my Westifeld was 180bhp and heavier and power was never on the agenda.... but just to be sure.....

Edited by scz4 on Sunday 20th July 18:33

[LawrenceR]

Scz4
My ideal spec would be very similar to yours but I would tell myself that I would not get the cage/track day roll bar or even paint until I am sitting ticking the boxes.

My man logic will help support my man maths.... that way I could still pretend it is/would be only just over £30k

Edited by LawrenceR on Sunday 20th July 19:56

[anonymous-user]

scz4 said:

I understand Caterham have a 7 to 8 month waiting list at the moment. Never got into the details, at least 18 months from that, but I assume they request a 10% deposit when you place the order? I assume Caterham only finance factory built cars?

What spec are you thinking?

My perfect R400 would be:
Non Metallic Orange or Yellow
Full Roll Cage
13" 6" front, 8" rear.
Black Aero fuel cap
12Volt Power Socket
Superlight Decal Pack

So pretty much £36k collected in kit form.

Then upgrade to roller TB's and decat when bored with 210bhp. Unlikely though, my Westifeld was 180bhp and heavier and power was never on the agenda.... but just to be sure.....

Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 20th July 18:33

I ordered an R400 kit about 3 weeks ago. I was told January delivery but since they have managed to get me a November build slot, so I hope to have the kit for Xmas. £2K deposit with order, another chunk about 3 months before delivery, then balance prior to delivery.

SV, low floors, 13" wheels, weather kit, undecided on colour. No doubt a few bits to be added..........

[thequietone]

To the O.P. Unless budget is not an issue I'd go Supersport R. You don't really *need* the 6 speed 'box with the Duratec, spring/damper is uprated over the R400 - lack of Watts isn't an issue and you don't need the dry-sump for fast raod with a few track days thrown in as long as you keep on top of the oil level.
I'm not bothered about the carbon either so I'd be keeping 8k in the bank.
You can always bolt on the 220bhp kit later when you fancy a big power hike.
I've driven SSR (220bhp) with the standard (now Mazda) 5 speed 'box and found it better on both road and track than the R400.

All subjective though....

[Andy Bell]

do not be too obsessed about the power with a Caterham is first thing i would say. For road I find my Supersport (140bhp) more than enough and for track whilst it sometimes is frustrating at lack of power it does force you to learn the car. Having bought a car already built if I was doing it again I would build myself as you never know what you get and in the event of any problems you have to figure out why certain things are done a certain way.

[tomwoodis]

thequietone said:

To the O.P. Unless budget is not an issue I'd go Supersport R. You don't really *need* the 6 speed 'box with the Duratec, spring/damper is uprated over the R400 - lack of Watts isn't an issue and you don't need the dry-sump for fast raod with a few track days thrown in as long as you keep on top of the oil level.
I'm not bothered about the carbon either so I'd be keeping 8k in the bank.
You can always bolt on the 220bhp kit later when you fancy a big power hike.
I've driven SSR (220bhp) with the standard (now Mazda) 5 speed 'box and found it better on both road and track than the R400.

All subjective though....

That's interesting to hear. Maybe I will just upgrade mine when the time comes in that case.

I must admit, I do like the 5 speed on the road. I've no doubt it's better to have the 6 on the track but if road use is the predominant thing then it really does work well with the torque the Duratec has.

What was the 220hp package that you refer to if you don't mind me asking? Have you driven a standard SuperSport R without the upgrade? If so, how much of a difference does it make?

Tom

[culminator]

The 6 speed box is a must in a K series but the Duratec has so much grunt, the 5 speed is the better option for both road and track. You'll forever be changing gear with a 6 and having had both, I know which I prefer.

[anonymous-user]

culminator said:

The 6 speed box is a must in a K series but the Duratec has so much grunt, the 5 speed is the better option for both road and track. You'll forever be changing gear with a 6 and having had both, I know which I prefer.

Isn't that a little contradictory? With the same engine, more gears doesn't mean you must be forever changng gear, in fact the closer ratios should mean the opposite.

I bow to your better practical experience but it doesn't sound right to me. My short experience of the 6 speed showed you can easily skip a gear if you dont want to stir the box. As you say the engine has plenty of grunt to pull whatever gear you're in.

[sjmmarsh]

Have you considered a used CSR 260? It has a nice ride, plenty of power and torque and more space (depending of whether you need it). Most come with the 6 speed, but the LSD was only fitted as standard to the early cars.

With the 260 engine and a 6 speed box you don't need to change gears that often if you don't want to - mine will pull away in 6th from about 20mph and 1st is good for almost 60mph if you want to use all the revs on the road!

It is not as manic as an R500 when you are approaching the limit, but for 95% of the time it is a better ride IMHO.

Steve

[LawrenceR]

sjmmarsh said:

Have you considered a used CSR 260? It has a nice ride, plenty of power and torque and more space (depending of whether you need it). Most come with the 6 speed, but the LSD was only fitted as standard to the early cars.

With the 260 engine and a 6 speed box you don't need to change gears that often if you don't want to - mine will pull away in 6th from about 20mph and 1st is good for almost 60mph if you want to use all the revs on the road!

It is not as manic as an R500 when you are approaching the limit, but for 95% of the time it is a better ride IMHO.

Steve

Steve please don't take this the wrong way but,

I have never really liked the look of the SV/CSR. They just don't look right to me, I can't quite explain it.

Edited by LawrenceR on Tuesday 22 July 06:23