Are Caterham in financial trouble?

[PiersR]

In 1984 when I ordered my first Caterham, the waiting time was just over a year and it was 13 months if I recall. I was working with Mike Warner - Ex Lotus, at the time and even a phone call from Mike to Grahame Nearn had no effect. It was a frustrating wait but worth it.

Piers

[anonymous-user]

scottracing said:

if you were putting 40plus million of your own cash into a team that scored no points wouldnt you be a bit peeved, yes frank has been around from the start and its great to see them back on form finally, but they started when it was still possible to come and compete against the big boys.

I don't disagree but think Crafty also makes a good point. What did he expect, coming into F1? Surely he should have known that £40M was just a start and it would take a long time.

[Crafty_]

He should have expected to spend 400m over say 5 years and to get no higher than 6th or 7th in the WCC at the end of that - anything higher would be a bonus.

That should get a bit of momentum (and sponsors) behind the team with the hope of it being right at the top within another 5 years and hopefully less money of his own during that period thanks to sponsors money coming in..

Ultimately the best way to go racing is with someone elses money.

[egomeister]

Redbrix said:

They have parts shortage as they rely on 3rd parties for many components as they dont produce it all in-house.

The only reasons you are likely to see parts shortages on externally produced components are if you are behind with your payments or you've badly planned your parts requirements. I wouldn't expect the latter given how long the 7 has been in production, especially if there is a waiting list.

[scottracing]

the first years f1 team was designed built and run for $40million dollars so inline with what the poisoned dwarf was asking, with the sponsorship deals and money coming in from the drivers the team was running at near $100million a year so thats nearly $500million over the life of the team so far. And yes without using other peoples money you cant get anywhere.
But just look at how many of the other teams are in financial trouble and up for sale

[Toaster]

Helluvaname said:

Toaster said:

I have to say having had an encounter with Ansar I know l would want to do business with him again.

Well, for some balance, I've had a direct encounter with him as well, and his offer to sort out my issue with their product providing I signed a confidentiality agreement and did not discuss it with any other owners, means I would definitely NOT want to do business with him again!

Thats interesting, for me my issue was fixed and no confidentiality agreement but I wouldn't discuss the issue as it was suitably sorted. It is not unusual in business to ask for a Non Disclosure Agreement. its not a personal slight but good business practice it just makes all parties aware of the need for some discresion.

[Buds]

So for clarity am I correct in saying there is no evidence that Caterham Cars are in financial difficulty?

Rumours about finances can bring a company down and produce the same effect as the rumour itself. I.e Would you place a deposit with a company your heard was in financial trouble? Probably not. Therefore the company sees orders start to dry up and then they actually start to get into financial difficulty because of this.

I assume everybody on this forum wants/needs Caterham to continue as it has done for many years? So lets not fuel rumours about difficulties and continue to place orders for the beloved 7. If you're still having second thoughts then put your deposit on a credit card so you'll have some protection.

I am very new to the Caterham world and these are just my thoughts. Until I see some facts to the contrary my deposit with Caterham still stands and I will not be swayed by rumours.

Edited by Buds on Tuesday 21st October 11:10

[DCL]

F1 Today are reporting that Caterham Sports LTD are about to declared they are insolvent - presumably to seek some legal protection.

I'm not sure where this company sits in the myriad of Caterham Companies. But there lies the problem - asset stripping of the name and 'good will' can be costly.

Edited by DCL on Tuesday 21st October 10:50

[Buds]

Its a mess at the F1 team for sure but this is not connected to Caterham Cars Ltd.

Try and understand whats going on at the F1 team by reading here: http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/10/20/explaini...

Edited by Buds on Tuesday 21st October 11:01

[forest07]

Redbrix said:

They have parts shortage as they rely on 3rd parties for many components as they dont produce it all in-house.
I dont get a feeling from that that I should be worried.

I'm not aware they make anything in house other than assemble parts. Guess they may been too hard on some suppliers and are suffering the consequences.

[Chrisp5782]

Moving to a new, larger, better equipped and more up market premises, hiring more staff and increasing manafucture output to meet increased domestic and foreign demand hardly seem like the actions of a company in financial strife.

If stock of spare parts is low maybe that's because parts are being used to complete customer kit orders in accordance with the higher demand?

The F1 venture was a seperate division as has been mentioned previously - it was Caterham in name only if you read the press releases.........

[downsman]

I think the parts issue is a red herring. I have phoned and found items are available when they are clearly listed unavailable on the website.

The non disclosure agreement stinks, because we all know that while fixing a known flaw on one owner's car free of charge, Caterham were fobbing off other less assertive owners with the same problem

[Helluvaname]

downsman said:

The non disclosure agreement stinks, because we all know that while fixing a known flaw on one owner's car free of charge, Caterham were fobbing off other less assertive owners with the same problem

That was what really annoyed me , coupled with an overheard telephone conversation between Caterham and their supplier where the Caterham person said "whatever you do don't admit to this otherwise it will open the floodgates".
It was quite a widespread problem that Caterham were well aware of, but used their favourite phrase "we've not seen that before"

[Chrisp5782]

AAAARRRGGGHH!!! This is killing - what was the problem?!

Is there anyone out there, not subject to a gag order, who can tell me?

[Chrisp5782]

downsman said:

I think the parts issue is a red herring. I have phoned and found items are available when they are clearly listed unavailable on the website.

The non disclosure agreement stinks, because we all know that while fixing a known flaw on one owner's car free of charge, Caterham were fobbing off other less assertive owners with the same problem

I tend to agree - updating of the website isn't exactly a strong suit of Caterham!

[Helluvaname]

Chrisp5782 said:

AAAARRRGGGHH!!! This is killing - what was the problem?!

Is there anyone out there, not subject to a gag order, who can tell me?

Hi Chris, here's a summary (as I didn't agree to the gagging order!):

Unfortunately I had a thread removed from blatchat in 2008, when I asked if anyone had had problems with paint flaking off their 10-spoke CC wheels. It was removed because several other members said they had also experienced the problem, and a few posted that they would therefore be buying wheels elsewhere.
CC complained to the club Chairman that this was damaging their business and the thread was removed.

I asked CC to replace the wheels, which they declined, and only offered to get them refurbished at my cost, so I decided to take the matter to the small claims court.
CC claimed the flaking paint could have been caused because my car "had been on a track day and could have been in gravel trap"; had been touring overseas so "could have been exposed to salt air and extreme temperatures"; etc!

The night before the case came up Ansar Ali called me to see if I would settle if they refurbished the wheels at their cost; BUT with the conditions that they did not accept liability and that I never spoke to anyone about it in the future.
By that time I had 5 other club members who had written to me stating their wheels had the same problem (and several more on Blatchat).
I said I would accept IF he made the same offer to the other 5 club members.
He declined and the case went to court the next day.

After hearing the evidence, and seeing a wheel, the Judge asked CC if they would consider this "normal wear and tear", and Simon Lambert replied that he "would not be surprised to see this (flaking paint) on wheels that were over 3 years old" (as mine were).
The judge therefore decided that "a reasonable person" could expect the paint to flake off wheels when they were 3 years old, and ruled against me.

I clearly don't agree that this is a reasonable thing to expect, but I'm glad I did what I did, as I have a clear conscience that I tried to help fellow Club members, and didn't take the "offer" to sort mine out, and abandon others in the same position.

[Chrisp5782]

I see, that was very good of you to abandon your fix in the hope of helping others.

I wouldn't expect the paint to come off after three years, unless it was a Porsche in which case three weeks would be good going!!

[Toaster]

I know I will get flamed for this but if it has seen track action and is beyond 3 years old I cannot see why a manufacturer would be responsible, Caterham do not make the wheels their supplier does maybe the issue should have been taken up with them at the same time.

I recently had a new vehicle and one of the tyres kept loosing pressure, the dealer checked the tyre and couldn't find the problem. Eventually I took it to a tyre shop explained the problem and they found was a crack in the Wheel. I knew the dealer would say I had hit a pothole which is what they did. So pre armed I asked ... a) what is the load rating of the wheel in my case its 13 Tonne's and that is one heck of a wallop if a wheel is going to crack b) This dealer sponsors race cars so I posed the question of how often do those cars Alloy's need to be changed given that they hurdle over kerbs every race. c) I was going to have the wheel analysed by a metallurgist but in the end didn't need to

The upshot is the dealer had the wheel changed and stated that the nature of the fracture was due to the manufacturing process, now if that had happened 3 years + down the line even if it was a fault in the alloy I wouldn't have a very poor chance of getting it changed. even the court agreed with them, give it up and take another perspective.

[Crafty_]

http://skiddmark.com/2014/10/decimate-brand-case-s...

[Chrisp5782]

Crafty_ said:

http://skiddmark.com/2014/10/decimate-brand-case-s...

Interesting but I think it highlights that the Caterham Cars we all know and love is safe as a business if not its reputation - that of course could have a detrimental effect in the long run.........only time will tell.