Which make of damper / shock absorber to upgrade to?

[Ult-Jim]

I started this post on Blatchat a few months ago about dampers & springs & after purchasing some new parts I updated my post on Blatchat yesterday. So I thought it would be good to share my experiences on here & on Facebook as well. I copied & paste most of it so excuse the wrong tenses.

First post back in October:
I have Freestyle supplied one-way adjustable AVO dampers & springs. They have worked very well for me, no issues, have a great feel. However from what I read and hear there may be better dampers available & I wanted to treat myself to an upgrade. Nitron, Penske, Ohlins & Bilsteins, different valving, different springs, the choice makes my head spin. If money is no problem which one or two way adjustable damper do you recommend and for what reasons? The car is a R500 K-series mostly used for mountain road blats in the hills in southern France, and odd track days back home in the UK. Any advice would be much appreciated. -

Update:
I thought this thread was worthy of an update on what happened next. Well, I had a chat with Simon at Meteor Motorsport. Being my hobby car I always want the best & a compromise is not good enough so I treated myself to a full set of Penske 3 way adjustables. They are custom made in America, shipped over & Meteor motorsports apply their own magic to valve them especially for a high powered Caterham, backed up with a dyno to prove the product worthy. Yes it can be tricky taking the front shocks off without damaging the surrounding body work & wishbones, plus where to place the remote reservoir assemblies, however many thanks to Boss Racing in Kent who did a brilliant install job. The car was being detailed at KDS Keltec at the same time so the new shocks & springs had a coating of Gtechniq Crystal Serum applied for long lasting protection & shine as well.

Here is a photo showing how they look straight out of the box.


So after being delivered back in South France, with a fresh service, suspension install & total wheel alignment corner weighting I was eager to go for a drive.

First things first I had an hour on the phone with Simon providing a fascinating physics lesson on how they are made, work, on how to read all the dyno curves and the correct settings for low speed compression, fast speed compression & rebound. The whole package dampers & shocks included the correct valving & base line settings for all the adjustments available.

I'm lucky to have some twisty hill roads not too far from where I live including the Course de cote de Biot which is a great testing ground for any Caterham. This Youtube vid gives you a good idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OivREx4MUSo

Anyway, after my first drive I was grinning ear to ear! To be honest I was a little nervous, as its been a while since driving the car, plus knowing that it would take longer to get the tires & brakes up to temperature as its been very cold down here lately also. So my findings:

Definitely transfers more power from the tires to the road surface - very noticeable.

More stable under heavy braking & acceleration (the front does not lift up as much when flooring it drag car style!)

You can feel the fast speed compression providing a smoother ride especially at normal speeds on uneven surfaces / pot holes, drain covers etc.

On high speed long open bends you can feel the dampers & springs preventing the role. My freestyle anti roll bars are slackened off to nearly the softest settings now as recommended in the new set up.

I have more confidence to keep on the power into open bends or high-speed twisty sections rather then lifting off. Or at least holding onto the power longer & braking later.

It is more stable under heavy braking into the apex and very predictable & balanced while powering hard out of a bend.

Only comment is may be, although still more testing to do, is a lot more noticeable twitch of weight distribution / sudden understeer or oversteer / have to correct, etc & only if I do something stupid like change gear or lift off at the wrong point in a bend & of course only at silly / naughty speeds. Time will tell. I will report back if this is correct & I experience this more, however so many factors could outweigh this conclusion at this stage as testing has only been on winter cold hill roads.

One downside is that it will probably require a full service off the car more often. I’m predicting every 2 years assuming my 900 to 1,400 hill road miles per year, however it is nice to know that Meteor motorsports are there to advise & supervise this when required.

All in all a great upgrade & definitely recommend. It’s so good I will be looking at the possibility for a similar upgrade for my Ultima GTR in the future

Ult-jim.

[k20erham]

Hi Jim I had the same from Penski via simon, they transformed my car, much much easier to control on the limit and grip in the wet is fantastic even on 15" CR500's. simply the best money can buy, and you can tell!!!

[nigelpugh7]

Hi Guys,

Those Penske shocks look fantastic, I have considered them many times.

However, one question does the cost of £4000 ( inc vat) really justify the technology?

I was also interested in the Ohlins shocks that meteor Motorsport offer, those seem like better value at £1900 for the set ( plus vat of course! )

To me the real reason to change away from the bilstein setup on my R500, would be to go to some alternative that had a range of adjustments for rebound etc, that was easy to change when out on trackdays etc.

The previous C400 bilstein race set I had, did have a single,adjustment but it seems the new version of these shocks that Caterham now supply are non adjustable, hence the reason for looking at the alternatives above.

Perhaps I should just give Simon at Meteor a call and chat it through with him first!

[SimonRogers]

Nigel

A couple of points.

You said "However, one question does the cost of £4000 ( inc vat) really justify the technology?" Ahem - can you justify a 7 ?????? :-) - Of course we all can.

So then the next step.

Make sure you have coffee or beer in hand and set aside an hour if your going to call. :-)

[k20erham]

Hi Nigel, I've raced and rallied, bikes and cars I've built and looked after Britcar/touring cars with all the leading damper makes, you have to experience them on a seven, they transform it, and make up for the lack of talent!!!I think that on most other cars you would have to be very talented to tell between the leading makes but as you know change the slightest thing on a seven and it will tell you, they are 4k and yes they are the best yes, 260bhp in a seven do we need it? sequential box? etc etc it is truley subjective, as I also say pay your money and enjoy.I'm 75% through supercharging my 260bhp 180 lb ft K20 honda which will go up to circa 400 bhp 300 lb ft, why? because I want to and can (madness)? maybe, but very challenging and rewarding.Oh and the support and info that Simon has to offer must be worth £500.00 helping with your selection and you get that for free, plus he sells all of the options so again make your choice and pay for it, he didn't railroad me into Penske infact he quoted for Ohlins, but I wanted remote 3ways. they are a thing of beauty!!!

[Ult-Jim]

Thanks guys for reminding me how much I paid He writes this in a dark cold room & stays in on his own on a Saturday night to save money

Simon has done lots of research on all makes of dampers and his development work is on going. It can become a complicated science and to understand it you must first block out all you have read & believe to be true from reading the many post on all the forums in the past.

Weather looks dry & ok tomorrow morning so will go for a cheeky blat to get my adrenaline shot

[k20erham]

Puts into perspective when you spend 4K on dampers 5K on a sadev and 4k on geartronics 3K on a BTB ex, as the old saying goes if it's got wheels wings or t~ts it's going to get expensive fun.

[downsman]

Do they really need servicing after less than 3000 road miles?

[whocares]

I suspect not after 3k road miles. But certainly after decent use.

Just like an engine really. Piston, rings, seals, valves,bearings and oil. If you were to see the condition of the oil when I open up the dampers you would not hesitate to service your dampers from any premier manufacture. The better the damper the finer the tolerances and the more you need to keep them in optimum shape. Just like an engine/race engine.

Without a good damper (set up well to match the car and springs) that expensive engine you have is going to waste its big performance not transferring the grip to the road.

There are many many sets of dampers out there that I am so confident need a service perhaps due to look of gas pressure over time I would almost offer to service free of charge if they had not lost their gas when opened up.

I have a video showing the emulsified oil and gas mixture which will basically be causing zero resistance to the damper piston ie not working on my front page of the website.

Have a look.

[anotherjohnv]

have a look where?

[nigelpugh7]

whocares said:

I suspect not after 3k road miles. But certainly after decent use.

Just like an engine really. Piston, rings, seals, valves,bearings and oil. If you were to see the condition of the oil when I open up the dampers you would not hesitate to service your dampers from any premier manufacture. The better the damper the finer the tolerances and the more you need to keep them in optimum shape. Just like an engine/race engine.

Without a good damper (set up well to match the car and springs) that expensive engine you have is going to waste its big performance not transferring the grip to the road.

There are many many sets of dampers out there that I am so confident need a service perhaps due to look of gas pressure over time I would almost offer to service free of charge if they had not lost their gas when opened up.

I have a video showing the emulsified oil and gas mixture which will basically be causing zero resistance to the damper piston ie not working on my front page of the website.

Have a look.

Indeed, but have a look where?

I suspect you forgot to include a link to the video you were referring too.

Please share so we can all have a look.

I wonder if bilstein recommend having the standard shocks as fitted to our Caterhams serviced and regassed/sealed etc so regularly?

It's certainly not listed as a recommendation in the Caterham service manual!

[sundance002]

k20erham said:

Hi Nigel, I've raced and rallied, bikes and cars I've built and looked after Britcar/touring cars with all the leading damper makes, you have to experience them on a seven, they transform it, and make up for the lack of talent!!!I think that on most other cars you would have to be very talented to tell between the leading makes but as you know change the slightest thing on a seven and it will tell you, they are 4k and yes they are the best yes, 260bhp in a seven do we need it? sequential box? etc etc it is truley subjective, as I also say pay your money and enjoy.I'm 75% through supercharging my 260bhp 180 lb ft K20 honda which will go up to circa 400 bhp 300 lb ft, why? because I want to and can (madness)? maybe, but very challenging and rewarding.Oh and the support and info that Simon has to offer must be worth £500.00 helping with your selection and you get that for free, plus he sells all of the options so again make your choice and pay for it, he didn't railroad me into Penske infact he quoted for Ohlins, but I wanted remote 3ways. they are a thing of beauty!!!

Sorry to hijack the thread,
I to have a honda powered Cat, Superlight R With a Mugen K20 Honda engine, running 300bhp 190ftlb, Can I ask why you are thinking of supercharging? I am just refreshing mine after 2.5 years of tracking on slicks,It never missed a beat,Mugen now dxo the parts to change the K20 from a 2ltr to a 2.2, capable of 350bhp,
the problem i have on track with 2 way adjustable Avo,is my inside rear wheel spin, what ever I do I cant seem to dial it out, so im also looking at changing the shocks to Nitron 4 way adjustable.
The power is so smooth a progessive a supercharger would make it to fierce low down and Imo would be nothing as good as it is N/A.
Would be great to link up and swop notes.
Sorry nigel back to thread,
I have never looked at the Penski shocks, I will now.

[downsman]

Yes I'd be interested in when yo service Bilsteins dampers as well. Mine are already at 18000 miles!

[nigelpugh7]

sundance002 said:

Sorry to hijack the thread,
I to have a honda powered Cat, Superlight R With a Mugen K20 Honda engine, running 300bhp 190ftlb, Can I ask why you are thinking of supercharging? I am just refreshing mine after 2.5 years of tracking on slicks,It never missed a beat,Mugen now dxo the parts to change the K20 from a 2ltr to a 2.2, capable of 350bhp,
the problem i have on track with 2 way adjustable Avo,is my inside rear wheel spin, what ever I do I cant seem to dial it out, so im also looking at changing the shocks to Nitron 4 way adjustable.
The power is so smooth a progessive a supercharger would make it to fierce low down and Imo would be nothing as good as it is N/A.
Would be great to link up and swop notes.
Sorry nigel back to thread,
I have never looked at the Penski shocks, I will now.

No probe for the Hijack!!

Would love to see some pictures of your 7 with the Honda engine in too please?

[fergus]

Bilstein Servicing:

David Masters
Workshop Manager
ThyssenKrupp Bilstein Tuning GmbH
Unit 3 Swannington Road
Broughton Astley LE9 6TU
Leicestershire
England
[phone]
[phone] fax

I suggest you ring David beforehand (he's busy so keep trying rather than relying on answerphone messages getting to him) to book your dampers in, also make sure he's aware it's a Caterham as you don't want valving for a much heavier car

A straightforward damper overhaul is between £60-80, if the damper rods are toast, you'll need add another £25 to each damper.

[SimonRogers]

The Bilstein dampers would not be considered a performance damper in terms of tolerance etc. They are built for a significantly higher mileage and therefore have far more stiction. They just have to to get the mileage - thats not me having a pop at them - its just downto design and cost.

Having them on the dyno shows a nice curve for road work but its all a little soft.

What I do see on the dyno is a large variance between dampers. So when testing a batch for some Grads Racers I had 9 dampers. 7 Older and 2 newer (a pair the same age). The softest and the hardest were the newer pair and the variance was equivalent to around 60% of the adjustment range in a Nitron or Quantum. That makes it a significant variance.

Servicing will not therefore necessarily balance the suspension - its just luck which you will not be able to see without a dyno.

So with the Grads I gave them back pairs of dampers of the closest match.

[CharlesElliott]

And they are now fitted to my race car, ready for 2015!

[BertBert]

SimonRogers said:

The softest and the hardest were the newer pair and the variance was equivalent to around 60% of the adjustment range in a Nitron or Quantum. That makes it a significant variance.

My Bilsteins (from a single seater not a caterham) have just come back from Bilstein having all been re-valved. In your experience are they likely to be quite different from each other?
Bert

[fergus]

BertBert said:

My Bilsteins (from a single seater not a caterham) have just come back from Bilstein having all been re-valved. In your experience are they likely to be quite different from each other?
Bert

Graham

Hi. Give Bilstein a call and ask them if they dyno'd the pair. Did you say what you were using them for? If so, I'd be very surprised if they haven't, especially if they've been revolved.

[SimonRogers]

BertBert

I simply can not say. If they have been matched then it will be luck of the draw is how I understand the build spec. They are sport dampers not performance ones.

Again not a criticism and difficult to match. Its hard enough matching things like the Penske's where the tolerances are easier to work with.


You could be lucky or you could end up having a pair like the newer ones Charles sent me.

I sent Charles the plots so he could see the variance.