My new (second hand ) caterham
Discussion
As above there is an element of TADTS here.
I'd be surprised if it was a map issue. The engine braking on a se7en, particularly one with a slightly higher compression is over exaggerated because the cars are so light. So the transition between off pedal engine braking and on gas power with a little bit of added driveline shunt can make things unusually uneven when compared to a heavier, 'normal' car. This is then exacerbated by you over correcting by taking your foot of the gas, then you getting back on the gas to compensate again etc.
So in a normal car you might be able to say, get away with cruising (off the gas) into a roundabout, change gears as required and then maybe freewheel until you need to accelerate off it, in a se7en, you need to drive the car around the roundabout (i.e trail the throttle). Sometimes this isn't always an option as other vehicles may cause you to slow down however part of [the joy of] driving a se7en is anticipating this so that you can get around smoothly or just waiting to join the roundabout once the traffic has cleared.
A se7en and its idiosyncrasies demand a different kind of driving because you can't get away with what you can in a heavier car.
I'd be surprised if it was a map issue. The engine braking on a se7en, particularly one with a slightly higher compression is over exaggerated because the cars are so light. So the transition between off pedal engine braking and on gas power with a little bit of added driveline shunt can make things unusually uneven when compared to a heavier, 'normal' car. This is then exacerbated by you over correcting by taking your foot of the gas, then you getting back on the gas to compensate again etc.
So in a normal car you might be able to say, get away with cruising (off the gas) into a roundabout, change gears as required and then maybe freewheel until you need to accelerate off it, in a se7en, you need to drive the car around the roundabout (i.e trail the throttle). Sometimes this isn't always an option as other vehicles may cause you to slow down however part of [the joy of] driving a se7en is anticipating this so that you can get around smoothly or just waiting to join the roundabout once the traffic has cleared.
A se7en and its idiosyncrasies demand a different kind of driving because you can't get away with what you can in a heavier car.
ben5575 said:
As above there is an element of TADTS here.
I'd be surprised if it was a map issue. The engine braking on a se7en, particularly one with a slightly higher compression is over exaggerated because the cars are so light. So the transition between off pedal engine braking and on gas power with a little bit of added driveline shunt can make things unusually uneven when compared to a heavier, 'normal' car. This is then exacerbated by you over correcting by taking your foot of the gas, then you getting back on the gas to compensate again etc.
So in a normal car you might be able to say, get away with cruising (off the gas) into a roundabout, change gears as required and then maybe freewheel until you need to accelerate off it, in a se7en, you need to drive the car around the roundabout (i.e trail the throttle). Sometimes this isn't always an option as other vehicles may cause you to slow down however part of [the joy of] driving a se7en is anticipating this so that you can get around smoothly or just waiting to join the roundabout once the traffic has cleared.
A se7en and its idiosyncrasies demand a different kind of driving because you can't get away with what you can in a heavier car.
No one has mentioned a worn potentiometer this can sometimes be an issue and easily changed, regarding Gas I thought they only had that in america I'd be surprised if it was a map issue. The engine braking on a se7en, particularly one with a slightly higher compression is over exaggerated because the cars are so light. So the transition between off pedal engine braking and on gas power with a little bit of added driveline shunt can make things unusually uneven when compared to a heavier, 'normal' car. This is then exacerbated by you over correcting by taking your foot of the gas, then you getting back on the gas to compensate again etc.
So in a normal car you might be able to say, get away with cruising (off the gas) into a roundabout, change gears as required and then maybe freewheel until you need to accelerate off it, in a se7en, you need to drive the car around the roundabout (i.e trail the throttle). Sometimes this isn't always an option as other vehicles may cause you to slow down however part of [the joy of] driving a se7en is anticipating this so that you can get around smoothly or just waiting to join the roundabout once the traffic has cleared.
A se7en and its idiosyncrasies demand a different kind of driving because you can't get away with what you can in a heavier car.
If the car has a light flywheel then go and get a driving course from someone like cadence its not so much other cars are heavy it because you have more of a race set up the rear end is braking every time you lift off the throttle my R400 you either are feeding the engine fuel even on over run or are applying the brakes don't just use over run as the back will want to be where the front of the car os particuarly in the wet go here http://www.cadence.co.uk and you will find your driving tuned to the car and may save you that £500 its the best money you can spend on any upgrade
Updated link http://www.pistonheads.com/Gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Edited by Toaster on Tuesday 28th July 07:02
Toaster said:
No one has mentioned a worn potentiometer this can sometimes be an issue and easily changed, regarding Gas I thought they only had that in america
If the car has a light flywheel then go and get a driving course from someone like cadence its not so much other cars are heavy it because you have more of a race set up the rear end is braking every time you lift off the throttle my R400 you either are feeding the engine fuel even on over run or are applying the brakes don't just use over run as the back will want to be where the front of the car os particuarly in the wet go here http://www.cadence.co.uk and you will find your driving tuned to the car and may save you that £500 its the best money you can spend on any upgrade
Updated link http://www.pistonheads.com/Gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Not sure what you're on about. Your links lead to a non functioning web site but none of this seems to relate to what this thread is concerned with. Can you explain?If the car has a light flywheel then go and get a driving course from someone like cadence its not so much other cars are heavy it because you have more of a race set up the rear end is braking every time you lift off the throttle my R400 you either are feeding the engine fuel even on over run or are applying the brakes don't just use over run as the back will want to be where the front of the car os particuarly in the wet go here http://www.cadence.co.uk and you will find your driving tuned to the car and may save you that £500 its the best money you can spend on any upgrade
Updated link http://www.pistonheads.com/Gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 28th July 07:02
Haha Toaster. You know I was going to apologise in my post for using 'gas', but it's so much easier to type than accelerator. I was also going to mention the TPS and whether there was a lightened flywheel but I felt I'd waxed on too much! Great minds and all that.
Glad to be of help Peter and you're right, it is one of the joys of these little cars. You don't need to go fast at first, set yourself the different challenge of being as smooth as possible. Try and flow with with the steering and throttle and in particular brake in straight lines and trail the throttle (different from trailing the brakes or trail braking which you can master later) through the corners - you really don't want to be lifting mid bend...! Note, by trailing the throttle I mean don't drive around a corner with your foot off the gas. Use the throttle to very gently 'bed' the car down and not to drive faster. Too much and you'll understeer off or worse still, you'll panic because you're going too fast and then you'll lift off causing a spin. Read the road and pre-empt how much you'll need.
Sorry if sucking eggs here, but think about blending your control inputs, squeezing the throttle and brakes on and off rather than stomping on them, with smooth, progressive transitions between each input (incl steering) to get the car to flow. Slow in and fast out and all that. Find your favourite back road and try it out. I promise you, once it clicks you'll be driving it far quicker, more safely and more within your and the car's limits.
Cadence is a great shout and as the cliche goes; the best performance upgrade money can buy.
Glad to be of help Peter and you're right, it is one of the joys of these little cars. You don't need to go fast at first, set yourself the different challenge of being as smooth as possible. Try and flow with with the steering and throttle and in particular brake in straight lines and trail the throttle (different from trailing the brakes or trail braking which you can master later) through the corners - you really don't want to be lifting mid bend...! Note, by trailing the throttle I mean don't drive around a corner with your foot off the gas. Use the throttle to very gently 'bed' the car down and not to drive faster. Too much and you'll understeer off or worse still, you'll panic because you're going too fast and then you'll lift off causing a spin. Read the road and pre-empt how much you'll need.
Sorry if sucking eggs here, but think about blending your control inputs, squeezing the throttle and brakes on and off rather than stomping on them, with smooth, progressive transitions between each input (incl steering) to get the car to flow. Slow in and fast out and all that. Find your favourite back road and try it out. I promise you, once it clicks you'll be driving it far quicker, more safely and more within your and the car's limits.
Cadence is a great shout and as the cliche goes; the best performance upgrade money can buy.
REALIST123 said:
Not sure what you're on about. Your links lead to a non functioning web site but none of this seems to relate to what this thread is concerned with. Can you explain?
Hugh seems to have gone to New Zeland there is a link for stressed Dave, or go here and book a course it will transform your driving http://www.high-performance-course.com/Toaster said:
Hugh seems to have gone to New Zeland there is a link for stressed Dave, or go here and book a course it will transform your driving http://www.high-performance-course.com/
How much is their 2.5 day course (website doesn't say)?Toaster said:
REALIST123 said:
Not sure what you're on about. Your links lead to a non functioning web site but none of this seems to relate to what this thread is concerned with. Can you explain?
Hugh seems to have gone to New Zeland there is a link for stressed Dave, or go here and book a course it will transform your driving http://www.high-performance-course.com/I think it does relate as the OP has perhaps realised that it is him rather than the car that is the cause of his problem and Toaster and now me are suggesting that one of the best ways of resolving this is for the OP to maybe get some specialist training.
Hugh at Cadence is (was) well recognised by Caterham drivers as one of the leading experts in this field - I believe he had his own section in the old blatchat and wrote in Low Flying. HPC are equally well thought of.
Hugh at Cadence is (was) well recognised by Caterham drivers as one of the leading experts in this field - I believe he had his own section in the old blatchat and wrote in Low Flying. HPC are equally well thought of.
ben5575 said:
I think it does relate as the OP has perhaps realised that it is him rather than the car that is the cause of his problem and Toaster and now me are suggesting that one of the best ways of resolving this is for the OP to maybe get some specialist training.
Hugh at Cadence is (was) well recognised by Caterham drivers as one of the leading experts in this field - I believe he had his own section in the old blatchat and wrote in Low Flying. HPC are equally well thought of.
Fair enough. I still don't see how anything in here.......Hugh at Cadence is (was) well recognised by Caterham drivers as one of the leading experts in this field - I believe he had his own section in the old blatchat and wrote in Low Flying. HPC are equally well thought of.
If the car has a light flywheel then go and get a driving course from someone like cadence its not so much other cars are heavy it because you have more of a race set up the rear end is braking every time you lift off the throttle my R400 you either are feeding the engine fuel even on over run or are applying the brakes don't just use over run as the back will want to be where the front of the car os particuarly in the wet go here http://www.cadence.co.uk and you will find your driving tuned to the car and may save you that £500 its the best money you can spend on any upgrade
...... relates to the issues that new owners get concerning 'kangarooing' and getting the car to progress smoothly have nothing to do with light flywheels, 'race set up' rear ends or cornering at a speed that will have the car spinning if you lift off. I thought that was quite clear from the first post and, as a new owner myself, who has quite easily figured out how to eliminate the diff clonking and how to keep the car smooth through roundabouts, I am at a loss to know how £500 would be worth it.
Now if your recommending a course with an advanced driver to improve your general driving, that's a different matter, but this thread wasn't about that was it?
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 28th July 16:47
REALIST123 said:
Now if your recommending a course with an advanced driver to improve your general driving, that's a different matter, but this thread wasn't about that was it?
If you dont adjust your driving style to accomadate the idiosyncrasy to the characteristics of the car then you will never drive safely or smoothly once the driving is sorted then go and have the potentiometer and its setup checked and if you must a re-mapEdited by REALIST123 on Tuesday 28th July 16:47
ben5575 said:
I think it does relate as the OP has perhaps realised that it is him rather than the car that is the cause of his problem and Toaster and now me are suggesting that one of the best ways of resolving this is for the OP to maybe get some specialist training.
Hugh at Cadence is (was) well recognised by Caterham drivers as one of the leading experts in this field - I believe he had his own section in the old blatchat and wrote in Low Flying. HPC are equally well thought of.
Hugh at Cadence is (was) well recognised by Caterham drivers as one of the leading experts in this field - I believe he had his own section in the old blatchat and wrote in Low Flying. HPC are equally well thought of.
reckon your right and it was Sressed Dave that sorted me and my R400 bearing in mind I had a lower powered 7 before best upgrade I could have done Well done for figuring out how to manage the diff clonking by yourself
The purpose of the thread was that the OP had kangerooing on a roundabout. As has been suggested by others in this thread, this could be attributable to a number of things; a bad map, driveline shunt, a weak spring on the roller barrels, a faulty TPS, and yes a lightened flywheel. I suggested that before any of this, it might be the OP getting used to the particular nature of a se7en; lightweight, driveline shunt and as Toaster picked up, relative engine braking and a light flywheel. Suggestions were made and they seemed to help the OP according to his subsequent post.
Unlike you, the OP wasn't able to figure this out by himself and as such the recommending of some additional driver training seemed a very sensible suggestion. I know it certainly helped me when I first got my se7en 15 years ago and I am happy to pass this experience on to a new owner to do with as they see fit.
I believe the £500 figure was mentioned by somebody else as the cost of the remap, and that Toaster merely suggested that it might be cheaper and more cost effective to some spend it on some training in the first instance.
Sorry, just spotted Toaster's subsequent posts. At least we appear to be on the same wavelength
The purpose of the thread was that the OP had kangerooing on a roundabout. As has been suggested by others in this thread, this could be attributable to a number of things; a bad map, driveline shunt, a weak spring on the roller barrels, a faulty TPS, and yes a lightened flywheel. I suggested that before any of this, it might be the OP getting used to the particular nature of a se7en; lightweight, driveline shunt and as Toaster picked up, relative engine braking and a light flywheel. Suggestions were made and they seemed to help the OP according to his subsequent post.
Unlike you, the OP wasn't able to figure this out by himself and as such the recommending of some additional driver training seemed a very sensible suggestion. I know it certainly helped me when I first got my se7en 15 years ago and I am happy to pass this experience on to a new owner to do with as they see fit.
I believe the £500 figure was mentioned by somebody else as the cost of the remap, and that Toaster merely suggested that it might be cheaper and more cost effective to some spend it on some training in the first instance.
Sorry, just spotted Toaster's subsequent posts. At least we appear to be on the same wavelength
I think I am fairly smooth with my inputs , having driven a powerful motorcycle Yamaha r1 so used to not snapping open the throttle and not jamming the brakes on etc....
This issue is more about gentle application of the throttle when coming out of a roundabout in 2nd gear, if I don't feather the throttle before giving more throttle th car kangaroos.
If a caterham owner is in the Berkshire area would be happy to go out in mine so that i can demonstrate and maybe have a go in mine, happy to do that.
Pete
This issue is more about gentle application of the throttle when coming out of a roundabout in 2nd gear, if I don't feather the throttle before giving more throttle th car kangaroos.
If a caterham owner is in the Berkshire area would be happy to go out in mine so that i can demonstrate and maybe have a go in mine, happy to do that.
Pete
"Wedge your foot on the side of the footwell" crew signing in...
The clarification in the post above of the circumstances which provoke the kangarooing make it sound much more like a mapping issue as opposed to a sticky throttle/shunt/regular lack of 'normal car' inertia issue, no? The after-sale roller barrel modification to the engine surely makes a mapping problem more likely to be the cause, too.
The clarification in the post above of the circumstances which provoke the kangarooing make it sound much more like a mapping issue as opposed to a sticky throttle/shunt/regular lack of 'normal car' inertia issue, no? The after-sale roller barrel modification to the engine surely makes a mapping problem more likely to be the cause, too.
PeterGadsby said:
I think I am fairly smooth with my inputs , having driven a powerful motorcycle Yamaha r1 so used to not snapping open the throttle and not jamming the brakes on etc....
This issue is more about gentle application of the throttle when coming out of a roundabout in 2nd gear, if I don't feather the throttle before giving more throttle th car kangaroos.
If a caterham owner is in the Berkshire area would be happy to go out in mine so that i can demonstrate and maybe have a go in mine, happy to do that.
Pete
I think this is your best initial course of action. If someone who has a similar car, (or experience of Caterhams) drives your car, they will be able to hopefully provide an informed view. This issue is more about gentle application of the throttle when coming out of a roundabout in 2nd gear, if I don't feather the throttle before giving more throttle th car kangaroos.
If a caterham owner is in the Berkshire area would be happy to go out in mine so that i can demonstrate and maybe have a go in mine, happy to do that.
Pete
All of the other suggestions are things to consider, but it may just be that the car needs more setting up (e.g. A remap by an experienced rolling road guy). Why "drive around" a problem if you can nip it in the bud? The light flywheel aspect should not be under estimated though.
Some of the other comments relate to getting an understanding of how a seven is sensitive to weight transition in various planes. Again, suspension geometry can be heavily tweaked to provide/eliminate different traits. Diffs (LSD) can also be tweaked to suit. The list goes on, but the 7 is very responsive to subtle changes, whether they are chassis related or driver induced.
Does it happen across the rev range or at a particular point ?
"going round a roundabout in 2nd" doesn't tell us much about where in the rev range you are using when it kangaroo's ?
My R400 isn't happy on a trailing throttle followed by a "cruise" setting with the right foot at low revs. I compensate by dipping the clutch or staying in a lower gear.....which probably makes me sound like a d**k when chugging through town in 1st instead of 2nd or 2nd instead of 3rd.... the car prefers to be driven harder (above 3.5 k revs at least):-)
"going round a roundabout in 2nd" doesn't tell us much about where in the rev range you are using when it kangaroo's ?
My R400 isn't happy on a trailing throttle followed by a "cruise" setting with the right foot at low revs. I compensate by dipping the clutch or staying in a lower gear.....which probably makes me sound like a d**k when chugging through town in 1st instead of 2nd or 2nd instead of 3rd.... the car prefers to be driven harder (above 3.5 k revs at least):-)
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