Bullet bitten, GT3 is up for sale, looking at Caterhams...
Discussion
Hi Mario, glad your joining the dark side, you wont regret it. Just a couple of points to think on/discuss.
1. Depreciation: One of the beautiful things about Caterham's is the don't really depreciate. You only really loose money on the standard dealer premium and when you buy new. For example there are a number of R500D's for sale now at Caterham south at around 38k mark which where around 45k new (7years ago). Similarly their is a 2007 R400D for sale at 28k which was around 32k(ish) when new. The only other exception are the bespoke cars made to order which seem to suffer more of a depreciation loss than others (some may remember a R500D for sale with CRS rear suspension which sold for far less than a standard R500). As such I would avoid any CRS/620 hybrid and be sticking with more of "stock" second hand car to minimise and loss (if this matters to you). I use the word stock loosely thought as all Caterham cars are differnt.
2. Seats: You seem to leaning towards the SV chassis due to your wide shoulders. If you are comfortable around the waist and leg room in an S3 I would explore the many types of seats before veering towards the wider car. If you prefer the handling of the SV chassis that is of course a different argument but the difference between tillet, leather, GT and of course the "bin-bag" custom seats is fairly significant and could put the S3 chasse back in the runnings?
3. Performance: Lets all be honest with ourselves here, we are not formula 1 drivers and for most the only real reason for buying a faster Caterham is for bragging rights, burning the occasional supercar at the lights and scaring passengers. Please do not think I am trying to insult anyone here, I am just being realistic and including myself in this category. Most Caterham owners would agree that the optimum power mark for fun is around the R300/400 mark and anything past this and its hard to extract the additional power. My personal counter argument for this is if you have the cash for a faster car why not as you wont loose any money as mentioned above. On reflection I would probably buy the R400 if I was in the market again for this very reason as I don't believe the extra 10K required to jump from an R400 to R500 provides 30% more fun!
4. Other choices: If you are looking at a 620R you have a pretty large track toy budget to play with here which brings a couple of other contenders into the mix. So make sure you test all the alternatives Ariel Atom 3.5R , Lotus Exige LF1, Lotus 3eleven. I think the 3Eleven is going to be next level and would have me seriously hesitating on buying a Caterham. Might cost as much as your GT3 thought.
5. Exhaust: The 620R can come with a side exit exhaust but it will fail the noise test. The solution Caterham have made is the rear exit exhaust, Most Caterham owners have chosen the Raceco route instead on their cars to reduce sound so this could be an option but it does cost £700, it is made of nice lightweight titanium though. I am not sure about the CSR but image you could fit a Raceco to this too. Probably worth asking on here/blatchat if anybody has that setup
1. Depreciation: One of the beautiful things about Caterham's is the don't really depreciate. You only really loose money on the standard dealer premium and when you buy new. For example there are a number of R500D's for sale now at Caterham south at around 38k mark which where around 45k new (7years ago). Similarly their is a 2007 R400D for sale at 28k which was around 32k(ish) when new. The only other exception are the bespoke cars made to order which seem to suffer more of a depreciation loss than others (some may remember a R500D for sale with CRS rear suspension which sold for far less than a standard R500). As such I would avoid any CRS/620 hybrid and be sticking with more of "stock" second hand car to minimise and loss (if this matters to you). I use the word stock loosely thought as all Caterham cars are differnt.
2. Seats: You seem to leaning towards the SV chassis due to your wide shoulders. If you are comfortable around the waist and leg room in an S3 I would explore the many types of seats before veering towards the wider car. If you prefer the handling of the SV chassis that is of course a different argument but the difference between tillet, leather, GT and of course the "bin-bag" custom seats is fairly significant and could put the S3 chasse back in the runnings?
3. Performance: Lets all be honest with ourselves here, we are not formula 1 drivers and for most the only real reason for buying a faster Caterham is for bragging rights, burning the occasional supercar at the lights and scaring passengers. Please do not think I am trying to insult anyone here, I am just being realistic and including myself in this category. Most Caterham owners would agree that the optimum power mark for fun is around the R300/400 mark and anything past this and its hard to extract the additional power. My personal counter argument for this is if you have the cash for a faster car why not as you wont loose any money as mentioned above. On reflection I would probably buy the R400 if I was in the market again for this very reason as I don't believe the extra 10K required to jump from an R400 to R500 provides 30% more fun!
4. Other choices: If you are looking at a 620R you have a pretty large track toy budget to play with here which brings a couple of other contenders into the mix. So make sure you test all the alternatives Ariel Atom 3.5R , Lotus Exige LF1, Lotus 3eleven. I think the 3Eleven is going to be next level and would have me seriously hesitating on buying a Caterham. Might cost as much as your GT3 thought.
5. Exhaust: The 620R can come with a side exit exhaust but it will fail the noise test. The solution Caterham have made is the rear exit exhaust, Most Caterham owners have chosen the Raceco route instead on their cars to reduce sound so this could be an option but it does cost £700, it is made of nice lightweight titanium though. I am not sure about the CSR but image you could fit a Raceco to this too. Probably worth asking on here/blatchat if anybody has that setup
Thanks for the info mate 
Ref seats / SV chassis / shoulders, it's not the seat size that's he problem, it's literally my shoulder pushes on the side of the car and the door panel can't be closed properly even with my hands on the wheel
I'm sure I *could* live with it potentially, but I would have to seriously think about it. After the test drive I'll know more, it may be that I can somehow arrange myself better and liberate some room.
Ref performance, you\re exactly right! When you have the budget for the full monty, it's very difficult to settle for less, especially when even if I go for the aforementioned full monty I'll still have cash left over!
Ref the other cars, I'm looking at Exiges but in terms of Atom and 3Eleven, the former is out as I need to have *some* luggage space as I do want to be able to do a weekend away in the car and the latter is out of budget!
Ref exhaust, that's great, being able to keep a side exit exhaust even if it costs a bit extra would be very nice
Ref seats / SV chassis / shoulders, it's not the seat size that's he problem, it's literally my shoulder pushes on the side of the car and the door panel can't be closed properly even with my hands on the wheel
I'm sure I *could* live with it potentially, but I would have to seriously think about it. After the test drive I'll know more, it may be that I can somehow arrange myself better and liberate some room.Ref performance, you\re exactly right! When you have the budget for the full monty, it's very difficult to settle for less, especially when even if I go for the aforementioned full monty I'll still have cash left over!
Ref the other cars, I'm looking at Exiges but in terms of Atom and 3Eleven, the former is out as I need to have *some* luggage space as I do want to be able to do a weekend away in the car and the latter is out of budget!
Ref exhaust, that's great, being able to keep a side exit exhaust even if it costs a bit extra would be very nice
Mario149 said:
CSR, 620R and Exige V6 Cup test drives all on course for Sunday, very excited now Weather even looks like it should be okay fingers crossed
Bet you don't buy the CSR. You'll love the Exige, but the 620R will scare you silly. So you'll buy one. Weather even looks like it should be okay fingers crossedHalf doors and an aeroscreen solve the cockpit width problems you seem to have. Tillett also build a slightly wider seat that fits an S3 - I saw one fitted to a Vuhl at the weekend. That worked well for me in my R500.
Sooooooo, Caterham test drive results.....
In a nutshell, I only drove the 620R which probably tells you enough of how it all went if you can't be bothered to read further....! But if you can....
Original plan was to drive both the CSR 260 and 620R, and in my head I had me driving them in that order. When I actually arrived at Caterham South (with my R500D mate who kindly agreed to come with me today to bounce ideas off etc) we got chatting with the salesman (Simon, very nice chap) and the first order of business was to confirm if I still had issues fitting in the standard S3 chassis as if I did, clearly the 620R was going to be out of the picture. Static tests confirmed what happened 3 weeks ago i.e. I don't fit at the shoulders....technically. That said, given that it was only my right shoulder that was causing the issue and pushing up against the door and also that although *extremely* snug, the rest of me fit in the carbon bucket seats, we decided that since this would basically be a track only car for me, even if it wasn't comfortable for longer touring type periods, so long as 20 mins at a time was fine, it was worth the effort to try the car out. So, after the thick end of 10 mins getting me ensconced into the the passenger seat (the lap belts had to be adjusted to the correct length via trial and error before I can get in and buckle up correctly as once I'm on, they're not going anywhere!) Simon drove us 20 mins out to the country with me passengering and truth be told, there was no discomfort at all which caught me rather by surprise. On stopping at a pub car park to swap over, we guestimated the belt lengths on the drivers side by visual comparison to the passenger side and I successfully wedged myself in again, this time in the business seat, and off we went. Again, after 20 mins back, no discomfort. That should just about cover the size practicality thing....<yawn!>
More to come....
In a nutshell, I only drove the 620R which probably tells you enough of how it all went if you can't be bothered to read further....! But if you can....
Original plan was to drive both the CSR 260 and 620R, and in my head I had me driving them in that order. When I actually arrived at Caterham South (with my R500D mate who kindly agreed to come with me today to bounce ideas off etc) we got chatting with the salesman (Simon, very nice chap) and the first order of business was to confirm if I still had issues fitting in the standard S3 chassis as if I did, clearly the 620R was going to be out of the picture. Static tests confirmed what happened 3 weeks ago i.e. I don't fit at the shoulders....technically. That said, given that it was only my right shoulder that was causing the issue and pushing up against the door and also that although *extremely* snug, the rest of me fit in the carbon bucket seats, we decided that since this would basically be a track only car for me, even if it wasn't comfortable for longer touring type periods, so long as 20 mins at a time was fine, it was worth the effort to try the car out. So, after the thick end of 10 mins getting me ensconced into the the passenger seat (the lap belts had to be adjusted to the correct length via trial and error before I can get in and buckle up correctly as once I'm on, they're not going anywhere!) Simon drove us 20 mins out to the country with me passengering and truth be told, there was no discomfort at all which caught me rather by surprise. On stopping at a pub car park to swap over, we guestimated the belt lengths on the drivers side by visual comparison to the passenger side and I successfully wedged myself in again, this time in the business seat, and off we went. Again, after 20 mins back, no discomfort. That should just about cover the size practicality thing....<yawn!>
More to come....
In terms of driving....
At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious, they are lovely things and I apologise in advance for any cliches....
1) Even thought the 620R felt like a caged beast while I was driving it (more on that later), about 30s after I started driving it was plainly obvious why they're so popular. Even though I was crowbarred in, once you're in situ, such minimal movement is required to pilot the car that actually the lack of space makes no odds. It's fun to drive even when pottering behind traffic with 90% of the car in reserve. I can *totally* get why you could by a 270 and never want for more if you were mainly road driving. In fact, I suspect the perfect car garage contains both a 270 (or similar) and an R500 / 620R (or similar) for road and track work respectively.
Still more to come....
At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious, they are lovely things and I apologise in advance for any cliches....
1) Even thought the 620R felt like a caged beast while I was driving it (more on that later), about 30s after I started driving it was plainly obvious why they're so popular. Even though I was crowbarred in, once you're in situ, such minimal movement is required to pilot the car that actually the lack of space makes no odds. It's fun to drive even when pottering behind traffic with 90% of the car in reserve. I can *totally* get why you could by a 270 and never want for more if you were mainly road driving. In fact, I suspect the perfect car garage contains both a 270 (or similar) and an R500 / 620R (or similar) for road and track work respectively.
Still more to come....
2) performance: suffice to say I lit up the rears in a straight line, 2 up, on a warm road at 70 mph in 3rd not even giving it full throttle. Which tells me 2 things: 1) driving on the road didn't get the tyres anywhere near up to temp, must try harder (:P), and 2) if you're buying this car to drive mainly on the road, you're spending faaaar more than you need to and wasting your money IMHO. I can totally see why the 620S version hasn't materialised on the planned timescale because, even though I was possibly in theory interested in something like that before today, in reality it'd be pointless. I'm a power (to weight ratio) w
e as much as the next person, but even I can see when the game is up I only got it to ~6500 rpm out of 8000 or so, so god knows what the last 1500 are like
And more.....
e as much as the next person, but even I can see when the game is up I only got it to ~6500 rpm out of 8000 or so, so god knows what the last 1500 are like And more.....
3) sequential box: on paper, I thought I was really not going to like it, but the reality was rather different. The main reason? Because RACECAR! 
On a more serious note though.....
I'm informed it makes much less noise than the Quaife item available in the R500 but it still makes a hell of a racket. There's not as much whine as I expected, but it clatters and bangs and generally sounds like it's going to lunch itself any minute, but TBH, that just adds to the specialness of the experience whereby you are left in absolute certainty that form (noise) follows function. But although I have no evidence whatsoever, I wouldn't want to vouch for the longevity of it, but I may be overreacting The change has a hefty weight to it, "positive" or "manly" I believe it's called, and it really is a pleasure to use, an epic old skool antidote to flappy paddle dual clutch boxes where they agonise over the last few grams of force required to make the computer change gear. The salesman was at pains to point out it's refinement shortcomings compared to an H-box, but If you ride a motorbike like I do and are used to sequential box idiosyncrasies, it's not a problem. And for something as blindingly fast on circuit as a 620R, it does make sense. Although thinking about it, the gearknob itself could be a bit prettier.
The surprising thing though is how useable it is round town: you can bang up and down the 'box, and apart from a bit more left arm effort and half an eye out to make sure you know what gear you're in, it's no problem to use, although getting it into neutral/reverse can be interesting so I wouldn't recommend 3 point turns if you can avoid them
On a more serious note though.....I'm informed it makes much less noise than the Quaife item available in the R500 but it still makes a hell of a racket. There's not as much whine as I expected, but it clatters and bangs and generally sounds like it's going to lunch itself any minute, but TBH, that just adds to the specialness of the experience whereby you are left in absolute certainty that form (noise) follows function. But although I have no evidence whatsoever, I wouldn't want to vouch for the longevity of it, but I may be overreacting
The change has a hefty weight to it, "positive" or "manly" I believe it's called, and it really is a pleasure to use, an epic old skool antidote to flappy paddle dual clutch boxes where they agonise over the last few grams of force required to make the computer change gear. The salesman was at pains to point out it's refinement shortcomings compared to an H-box, but If you ride a motorbike like I do and are used to sequential box idiosyncrasies, it's not a problem. And for something as blindingly fast on circuit as a 620R, it does make sense. Although thinking about it, the gearknob itself could be a bit prettier.The surprising thing though is how useable it is round town: you can bang up and down the 'box, and apart from a bit more left arm effort and half an eye out to make sure you know what gear you're in, it's no problem to use, although getting it into neutral/reverse can be interesting so I wouldn't recommend 3 point turns if you can avoid them
2. Seats: You seem to leaning towards the SV chassis due to your wide shoulders. If you are comfortable around the waist and leg room in an S3 I would explore the many types of seats before veering towards the wider car. If you prefer the handling of the SV chassis that is of course a different argument but the difference between tillet, leather, GT and of course the "bin-bag" custom seats is fairly significant and could put the S3 chasse back in the runnings?
Worth a mention.
Cobra now make a seat specifically for the Caterham. Can be made in leather or vinyle.
After not being able to find a seat i liked for comfort on the road, I commisioned them to build a new spec seat that has now gone into production through GSM sport seats.
Heres a couple of pics
sundance002 said:
2. Seats: You seem to leaning towards the SV chassis due to your wide shoulders. If you are comfortable around the waist and leg room in an S3 I would explore the many types of seats before veering towards the wider car. If you prefer the handling of the SV chassis that is of course a different argument but the difference between tillet, leather, GT and of course the "bin-bag" custom seats is fairly significant and could put the S3 chasse back in the runnings?
Worth a mention.
Cobra now make a seat specifically for the Caterham. Can be made in leather or vinyle.
After not being able to find a seat i liked for comfort on the road, I commisioned them to build a new spec seat that has now gone into production through GSM sport seats.
Heres a couple of pics
Thanks for the info Worth a mention.
Cobra now make a seat specifically for the Caterham. Can be made in leather or vinyle.
After not being able to find a seat i liked for comfort on the road, I commisioned them to build a new spec seat that has now gone into production through GSM sport seats.
Heres a couple of pics
I think the width issue has been "solved". In all the cars I sat in, I could get in, it was just in the carbon fibre race seat ones there was literally no spare space and I was squished into the bucket with my right shoulder sticking out of the car. With the leather and GT seats I tried, I had a little bit of room to manoeuvre so it made it easier to get in and out and the edge of the car and transmission tunnel effectively became my (rather comfy) bucket seat, but, my shoulder still sticks out. This is "unfixable" as I just have very wide shoulders and that doesn't change, but the good news is, notwithstanding that, while it probably looked a little ridiculous when we were on the road it didn't bother me in terms of comfort so all is good
If it was going to be a car for touring and going away in, it might be a different story, but we have other stuff in the fleet for that.Picked up the 620R from S&C today, am a very happy bunny! I believe the technical term for the car is "bat sh*t" crazy
Things I love so far after 40 miles:
1) the sequential box: it's not as refined as an h box and it is more difficult to use, sounds like it's about to lunch itself with every change that isn't at max attack, but in terms of adding sense of occasion to a drive, it's top notch. Love being able to flat shift up the box like I can on my motorbike
2) the ride: it manages to be very firm, yet not uncomfortable, a trick my GT3 managed which is very impressive
3) the seats: I think I'm going to try and stick with the 620 race seats - there seems to be a bit more space in them compared to the R500 I drove last week. I've also lost a couple of kg since my first 620 drive about 3 weeks ago which seems to have helped
4) positive attention it gets: stopped for petrol 20 mins after pickup and a couple of blokes came up to chat for 5 mins at the petrol station, with Porsches you tend to get people casting admiring glances, but they won't normally come up and say hello because of the perceived stereotype
5) my gf loves it: I've told her to think of it as a toy rather than a car, and she totally digs it after a 15 min spin our unborn baby girl however seems less enthused and apparently started kicking furiously after about 30s, we think it was the noise
6) steering feel obviously, no need to explain this one
7) Callum at S and C: very friendly chap, great person to buy a car from
8) the carbon wings! Love the fact they're not painted! Why would you paint over something that looks so cool and pay £200 for the privilege?!
Things I'm not a fan of so far:
1) running/low beam lights have already given up, hopefully a fuse so will have a look tomorrow
Not a biggie, just a minor annoyance on the first day
2) passenger side wing mirror: it's frustrating not being able to reach over and move it from inside the car! I'm slowly getting it adjusted correct with trial and error whenever I get in and out, but not there yet
3) pedals are only just viable with my size 11 feet with driving/karting shoes, ideally I'd like a bit more room
Obligatory pics
Things I love so far after 40 miles:
1) the sequential box: it's not as refined as an h box and it is more difficult to use, sounds like it's about to lunch itself with every change that isn't at max attack, but in terms of adding sense of occasion to a drive, it's top notch. Love being able to flat shift up the box like I can on my motorbike
2) the ride: it manages to be very firm, yet not uncomfortable, a trick my GT3 managed which is very impressive
3) the seats: I think I'm going to try and stick with the 620 race seats - there seems to be a bit more space in them compared to the R500 I drove last week. I've also lost a couple of kg since my first 620 drive about 3 weeks ago which seems to have helped
4) positive attention it gets: stopped for petrol 20 mins after pickup and a couple of blokes came up to chat for 5 mins at the petrol station, with Porsches you tend to get people casting admiring glances, but they won't normally come up and say hello because of the perceived stereotype
5) my gf loves it: I've told her to think of it as a toy rather than a car, and she totally digs it after a 15 min spin
our unborn baby girl however seems less enthused and apparently started kicking furiously after about 30s, we think it was the noise 6) steering feel obviously, no need to explain this one
7) Callum at S and C: very friendly chap, great person to buy a car from
8) the carbon wings! Love the fact they're not painted! Why would you paint over something that looks so cool and pay £200 for the privilege?!
Things I'm not a fan of so far:
1) running/low beam lights have already given up, hopefully a fuse so will have a look tomorrow
Not a biggie, just a minor annoyance on the first day
2) passenger side wing mirror: it's frustrating not being able to reach over and move it from inside the car! I'm slowly getting it adjusted correct with trial and error whenever I get in and out, but not there yet
3) pedals are only just viable with my size 11 feet with driving/karting shoes, ideally I'd like a bit more room
Obligatory pics
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