How much power does it take to make a really quick 7?
Discussion
I love it how a 2000 car with about 40k on the clock is deemed "high mileage"! That's less than 3k miles p.a.
I am in a similar quandary with my SL. Mine has 25k on the clock but if I wanted 200BHP I would be looking at spending another £8k or so (roughly 50% of the value) for an SLR or R400.
Is it worth it? Not sure, as I find mine with an aero is bloody brilliant on road and fast enough on track. £8k gets a lot of driving tuition and/or modifications.
You know your car and it's definitely a jump into the unknown getting something else. And there is something special about "growing with a car".
I do think a few grand at DVA may give you a better ownership proposition than an SLR/R400.
I am in a similar quandary with my SL. Mine has 25k on the clock but if I wanted 200BHP I would be looking at spending another £8k or so (roughly 50% of the value) for an SLR or R400.
Is it worth it? Not sure, as I find mine with an aero is bloody brilliant on road and fast enough on track. £8k gets a lot of driving tuition and/or modifications.
You know your car and it's definitely a jump into the unknown getting something else. And there is something special about "growing with a car".
I do think a few grand at DVA may give you a better ownership proposition than an SLR/R400.
I have been looking at the various DVA options and along with a bottom end rebuild to incorporate forged pistons and modified (fully floating) rods (£1400?), I am torn between the K04 (160 bhp+ on a 1600cc and £2970 with air box and 10% added as prices are out of date) and K05 (175 bhp+ on a 1600cc and £3850). I anticipate that both would require a rolling road session once run in at £???.
Have you been able to drive something of a similar spec to those upgrades? If it was me I'd want to drive a demonstrator or similar to understand if its enough as it is a lot of cash to drop on a possible fix.
Have you thought about converting to a BEC? You'd get similar power, a weight reduction and a much higher RPM limit (mine tops out at about 11.5 krpm) for similar money if you can trade in your old engine.
Have you thought about converting to a BEC? You'd get similar power, a weight reduction and a much higher RPM limit (mine tops out at about 11.5 krpm) for similar money if you can trade in your old engine.
SidewaysSi said:
I love it how a 2000 car with about 40k on the clock is deemed "high mileage"! That's less than 3k miles p.a.
I am in a similar quandary with my SL. Mine has 25k on the clock but if I wanted 200BHP I would be looking at spending another £8k or so (roughly 50% of the value) for an SLR or R400.
Is it worth it? Not sure, as I find mine with an aero is bloody brilliant on road and fast enough on track. £8k gets a lot of driving tuition and/or modifications.
You know your car and it's definitely a jump into the unknown getting something else. And there is something special about "growing with a car".
I do think a few grand at DVA may give you a better ownership proposition than an SLR/R400.
Re mileage, I'm afraid that it is true, as you'll find out when you sell yours. But you're right about optimising what you have and spending the money on tuition.I am in a similar quandary with my SL. Mine has 25k on the clock but if I wanted 200BHP I would be looking at spending another £8k or so (roughly 50% of the value) for an SLR or R400.
Is it worth it? Not sure, as I find mine with an aero is bloody brilliant on road and fast enough on track. £8k gets a lot of driving tuition and/or modifications.
You know your car and it's definitely a jump into the unknown getting something else. And there is something special about "growing with a car".
I do think a few grand at DVA may give you a better ownership proposition than an SLR/R400.
I'd counsel not to upgrade an SL though. The intrinsic value (highish mileage or not) of the car is in that dashboard plaque and spec. An upgraded SL won't appeal to the purists.
tankplanker said:
Have you been able to drive something of a similar spec to those upgrades? If it was me I'd want to drive a demonstrator or similar to understand if its enough as it is a lot of cash to drop on a possible fix.
Have you thought about converting to a BEC? You'd get similar power, a weight reduction and a much higher RPM limit (mine tops out at about 11.5 krpm) for similar money if you can trade in your old engine.
He'd be mad to do that to a Superlight Have you thought about converting to a BEC? You'd get similar power, a weight reduction and a much higher RPM limit (mine tops out at about 11.5 krpm) for similar money if you can trade in your old engine.
rubystone said:
SidewaysSi said:
I love it how a 2000 car with about 40k on the clock is deemed "high mileage"! That's less than 3k miles p.a.
I am in a similar quandary with my SL. Mine has 25k on the clock but if I wanted 200BHP I would be looking at spending another £8k or so (roughly 50% of the value) for an SLR or R400.
Is it worth it? Not sure, as I find mine with an aero is bloody brilliant on road and fast enough on track. £8k gets a lot of driving tuition and/or modifications.
You know your car and it's definitely a jump into the unknown getting something else. And there is something special about "growing with a car".
I do think a few grand at DVA may give you a better ownership proposition than an SLR/R400.
Re mileage, I'm afraid that it is true, as you'll find out when you sell yours. But you're right about optimising what you have and spending the money on tuition.I am in a similar quandary with my SL. Mine has 25k on the clock but if I wanted 200BHP I would be looking at spending another £8k or so (roughly 50% of the value) for an SLR or R400.
Is it worth it? Not sure, as I find mine with an aero is bloody brilliant on road and fast enough on track. £8k gets a lot of driving tuition and/or modifications.
You know your car and it's definitely a jump into the unknown getting something else. And there is something special about "growing with a car".
I do think a few grand at DVA may give you a better ownership proposition than an SLR/R400.
I'd counsel not to upgrade an SL though. The intrinsic value (highish mileage or not) of the car is in that dashboard plaque and spec. An upgraded SL won't appeal to the purists.
.Losing say a grand because your £15k Caterham has a "high mileage" is still probably cheaper than buying a K Series R400 with, say 18k miles for£23k or thereabouts and being in the same position in a couple of years.
Purely monetarily it may make sense to hang onto what you have. If upgrading, I would go R500 I think, but at the moment I can think of other motoring toys to spend the extra £20k odd on right now.
Edited by SidewaysSi on Sunday 14th February 18:22
Don't forget that the opinions expressed here are 'subjective' and rarely objective. The value of SL's have definitely strengthened in the last couple of years from around the low £16,000 mark (trade) to the high £17,000 to mid £18,000 mark (trade).
As ever the real value is what someone will actually pay and I am sure I am not alone in buying on specification, history and provenance; and being willing to pay a premium for the right car.
A sympathetically modified SL or R series Caterham is neither unusual nor or sold more cheaply than a standard model; after all Caterham's tend not be all the same. If the car has the right modifications carried out professionally by the right people i.e. Dave Andrews with a K series engine the market finds this to be not only acceptable but also in some cases worth a premium.
Let me give you an example. There are apparently well documented issues with using the increased rev limit of a Super Sport (SS) equipped K series cars for prolonged periods. The rev limit is too high as the standard pistons have a high probability of expiring at RPM over 7200, in fact many of the SS cars used on track had issues with pistons breaking and had them replaced with Omega forged pistons. In this scenario It stands to reason that most people would want to know that this issue had been sorted out, properly, by a recognised marque expert.
As ever the real value is what someone will actually pay and I am sure I am not alone in buying on specification, history and provenance; and being willing to pay a premium for the right car.
A sympathetically modified SL or R series Caterham is neither unusual nor or sold more cheaply than a standard model; after all Caterham's tend not be all the same. If the car has the right modifications carried out professionally by the right people i.e. Dave Andrews with a K series engine the market finds this to be not only acceptable but also in some cases worth a premium.
Let me give you an example. There are apparently well documented issues with using the increased rev limit of a Super Sport (SS) equipped K series cars for prolonged periods. The rev limit is too high as the standard pistons have a high probability of expiring at RPM over 7200, in fact many of the SS cars used on track had issues with pistons breaking and had them replaced with Omega forged pistons. In this scenario It stands to reason that most people would want to know that this issue had been sorted out, properly, by a recognised marque expert.
As interesting as what comments are about what Caterham might be worth (or not). Perhaps, it would be be sensible to start a new topic or replying to a topic more suited to that subject, rather than this topic which is "How much power does it take to make a really quick 7?" That way it will help people find the information they are actually looking for when searching, as opposed to having to trawl through off topic chit chat...
Green George said:
As interesting as what comments are about what Caterham might be worth (or not). Perhaps, it would be be sensible to start a new topic or replying to a topic more suited to that subject, rather than this topic which is "How much power does it take to make a really quick 7?" That way it will help people find the information they are actually looking for when searching, as opposed to having to trawl through off topic chit chat...
You don't need more power, you just need tuition in how to drive the car you already have. So forget about the extra power, join L7CGB, do a club trackday, take the free tuition on offer, follow the lines the guys on that day are taking and learn how to drive the car you have. SidewaysSi said:
It always surprises me how many Caterhams have tiny mileages .
Losing say a grand because your £15k Caterham has a "high mileage" is still probably cheaper than buying a K Series R400 with, say 18k miles for£23k or thereabouts and being in the same position in a couple of years.
Purely monetarily it may make sense to hang onto what you have. If upgrading, I would go R500 I think, but at the moment I can think of other motoring toys to spend the extra £20k odd on right now.
It's not about losing money, it's about not being able to sell the car against those that are for sale for a 'grand' more with lower mileages. And it isn't about the engine, it's about the condition of the bodywork, powder coating and suspension coatings. With higher mileages, these tend to take a beating..Losing say a grand because your £15k Caterham has a "high mileage" is still probably cheaper than buying a K Series R400 with, say 18k miles for£23k or thereabouts and being in the same position in a couple of years.
Purely monetarily it may make sense to hang onto what you have. If upgrading, I would go R500 I think, but at the moment I can think of other motoring toys to spend the extra £20k odd on right now.
Edited by SidewaysSi on Sunday 14th February 18:22
You should drive an R500 before upgrading to one. It's a different proposition to a Superlight.
rubystone said:
You don't need more power, you just need tuition in how to drive the car you already have. So forget about the extra power, join L7CGB, do a club trackday, take the free tuition on offer, follow the lines the guys on that day are taking and learn how to drive the car you have.
Thank you for your (off topic) replies, they are very entertaining; But, this topic really is entitled "How much power does it take to make a really quick 7?" However, as you have made a number of points, let me respond;I am an existing member of the L7C (with the same username).
I do do track days;
I do take tuition;
I have started a separate topic within the Track Days folder entitled "Advice please - 3rd party track day instruction".
rubystone said:
SidewaysSi said:
It always surprises me how many Caterhams have tiny mileages .
Losing say a grand because your £15k Caterham has a "high mileage" is still probably cheaper than buying a K Series R400 with, say 18k miles for£23k or thereabouts and being in the same position in a couple of years.
Purely monetarily it may make sense to hang onto what you have. If upgrading, I would go R500 I think, but at the moment I can think of other motoring toys to spend the extra £20k odd on right now.
It's not about losing money, it's about not being able to sell the car against those that are for sale for a 'grand' more with lower mileages. And it isn't about the engine, it's about the condition of the bodywork, powder coating and suspension coatings. With higher mileages, these tend to take a beating..Losing say a grand because your £15k Caterham has a "high mileage" is still probably cheaper than buying a K Series R400 with, say 18k miles for£23k or thereabouts and being in the same position in a couple of years.
Purely monetarily it may make sense to hang onto what you have. If upgrading, I would go R500 I think, but at the moment I can think of other motoring toys to spend the extra £20k odd on right now.
Edited by SidewaysSi on Sunday 14th February 18:22
You should drive an R500 before upgrading to one. It's a different proposition to a Superlight.
Powder coating etc. is very well but chances are a full history road driven Superlight is likely to be in better condition than one thrashed on track and which has seen the odd kitty litter.
Irrespective, Superlights are always wanted and have all the right bits so them being unsellable is unlikely to happen at any time.
If I ever sell (have no intention of right now), having a reasonable mileage is one thing. But equally having very few owners and a folder full of specialist history will also have an appeal to many. Sevens and Classics seem to have little difficulty shifting cars at a variety of mileages.
It's a mad world when a 15 year old car with 20k miles is deemed "high mileage". Quite frankly, if I take mine to 50k miles and get a few grand less at trade in, it's hardly a big deal. Bloody good value for the smiles I have had.
In my opinion, far better sticking with the car I know. There are plenty of thrashed and crashed Sevens out there...
Si, are you familiar with the issues with powder coating and the electrolytic corrosion caused by driving Sevens in the wet on wintry roads? A 50k mile 7 is a difficult car to partex too. Will they ever be unsaleable? Of course not, but they'll never appreciate either. The next Superlight, whatever it's called will ensure that, just as the KR500 has stuck at £22-£24k for the past 10 years.
If you've owned 911s before and they're E, F or G Series, you'll find the 964 much more civilised then them. Whether that's a good or bad thing depends on what you want from the car. I'd recommend a C2 not a C4.
Now on topic...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ5kgmRZOGU
We back to backed 3 cars for this test. The DR300 with 175 bhp was huge fun and proved that you don't need any more power than that. Simon Lambert forcibly dragged me out of it in the end
If you've owned 911s before and they're E, F or G Series, you'll find the 964 much more civilised then them. Whether that's a good or bad thing depends on what you want from the car. I'd recommend a C2 not a C4.
Now on topic...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ5kgmRZOGU
We back to backed 3 cars for this test. The DR300 with 175 bhp was huge fun and proved that you don't need any more power than that. Simon Lambert forcibly dragged me out of it in the end
rubystone said:
You don't need more power, you just need tuition in how to drive the car you already have. So forget about the extra power, join L7CGB, do a club trackday, take the free tuition on offer, follow the lines the guys on that day are taking and learn how to drive the car you have.
'you don't need more power'..................... That's the most ridiculous thing posted on this thread! The only thing I have ever owned and still do that I could say that of is my GSXR1000 with a few mods, 104mph in 1st, 126 in 2nd, when you get to 3rd you can use full throttle and keep the front wheel down, limited to 186mph.
A Caterham Levante maybe does not need more power.
rubystone said:
Si, are you familiar with the issues with powder coating and the electrolytic corrosion caused by driving Sevens in the wet on wintry roads? A 50k mile 7 is a difficult car to partex too. Will they ever be unsaleable? Of course not, but they'll never appreciate either. The next Superlight, whatever it's called will ensure that, just as the KR500 has stuck at £22-£24k for the past 10 years.
If you've owned 911s before and they're E, F or G Series, you'll find the 964 much more civilised then them. Whether that's a good or bad thing depends on what you want from the car. I'd recommend a C2 not a C4.
Now on topic...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ5kgmRZOGU
We back to backed 3 cars for this test. The DR300 with 175 bhp was huge fun and proved that you don't need any more power than that. Simon Lambert forcibly dragged me out of it in the end
I have been in the "Seven scene" for far too many years to remember (been a club member for all those years except these past 12 months) so yes, I am very aware of the consequences of driving a Seven in winter. However a 50k car with someone having driven 3-5k summer miles on road is not really a concern. And as I said, monetarily it is probably the cheaper long term solution if that's what's important.If you've owned 911s before and they're E, F or G Series, you'll find the 964 much more civilised then them. Whether that's a good or bad thing depends on what you want from the car. I'd recommend a C2 not a C4.
Now on topic...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ5kgmRZOGU
We back to backed 3 cars for this test. The DR300 with 175 bhp was huge fun and proved that you don't need any more power than that. Simon Lambert forcibly dragged me out of it in the end
As for the power question, everyone has a different view depending on what they look for and the roads they drive on. Of course, power/grip ratio is often the more important. I have driven a number of Sevens over the years and of all of them, I am perfectly satisfied with where I am right now.
I value this guy's opinion on what makes a good car. A few years old but does show that ultimate power is not always the most satisfying:
http://www.evo.co.uk/caterham/7/11561/seven-sevens...
mike150 said:
'you don't need more power'..................... That's the most ridiculous thing posted on this thread!
Not at all. It's all about personal choice. I much prefer lower powered caterhams - 140-170 bhp. I've only been as high as 230, but I far preferred my k-1600 to the R500. So horses for courses!Bert
BertBert said:
Not at all. It's all about personal choice. I much prefer lower powered caterhams - 140-170 bhp. I've only been as high as 230, but I far preferred my k-1600 to the R500. So horses for courses!
Bert
Wise words. I think a lot of people agree that the 7 sweet spot is 160-180 bhp. But it is all subjective.Bert
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