Ultimate Seven Product

[bcr5784]

Equus said:

I ought to say that I speak as someone who has owned and driven a Caterham as my only car, including year-round commute into a major city centre (Leeds).

And I speak as someone who has used a 7 as daily transport in all weathers over 10000 miles without hood or windscreen.

But I realise that I am in a small minority of even Caterham owners - and I don't assume most others would regard that as acceptable. Other kit car type manufacturers (whether kits are available or not) seem to think that what is acceptable to them personally will be acceptable to their customers. Look how few Caterhams are sold sans hood and windscreen. It's not as if it's a cheap option. And yet both Zenos (what was Ansar Ali thinking?) and Atoms were introduced without either. To suggest that practicality at that level isn't important to people in the Caterham marketplace is clearly contrary to the evidence.

[downsman]

Equus said:

But imagine how good it would be - and how profitable for Caterham - if they took such a fundamentally better and more cost-effective design and idiot-proofed it to the level necessary for the average Caterham buyer?

It's not rocket science - just a matter of doing a bit of testing to allow a standardised spring/damper/tyre package and to establish the recommended geo.

The big problem with variability in other kit cars is that they are fitted with all sorts of random drivetrain and suspension components by their builders. One thing that Caterham have got right - considering that they're targeting buyers who are less technically competent - is that they're very strict about such rationalisation.

Good points here. I like Sylvas particularly the Striker, and I built an early Westfield SEi (couldn't fit in a Striker)

The lesson I learned with the Westfield was that although it could have been a great car, as the owner, I was expected to do chassis and brake balance development beyond my skills. And as Nigel says, I paid the cost when I sold it, as the cheaper car cost me more due to terrible depreciation.

As a member of a very active kit car club, I get the chance to see a variety of kits getting used in anger. The Jeremy Phillips designed ones hold up better than most, but there are issues, for example the R1ot requires removal of passenger seat and rear bulkhead to change the battery. The side sill on a Fury has to be removed to access the exhaust.

One of the latest round tube, Mazda MX5 based Seven replicas was bought by a friend. On the road the suspension was ridiculously hard and he sold it after a lower front wishbone bent under braking on a track day. The replacement was much heavier and didn't even fit......

While Caterham have failed to come up with the new big thing, they have kept the original Seven going, and I am grateful for that. I am too tall to fit an original s1, s2 or s3, so if Caterham hadn't developed the car, I couldn't have drive my childhood dream car

Edited by downsman on Tuesday 30th August 18:10

[Equus]

bcr5784 said:

To suggest that practicality at that level isn't important to people in the Caterham marketplace is clearly contrary to the evidence.

And yet Ariel are (literally) selling as many cars as they wish to build... how many manufacturers can say that, in the current market?

[Furyblade_Lee]

nigelpugh7 said:

Didn't " Sam-68" used to drone on and in here about how good the Sylviawas?

As he doesn't seem to exist any more, perhaps Equus is Sam-68 reincarnated .

But seriously I don't see the Sylva as a good comparison to the real seven, both in style,and authenticity.

To me it's just another kit car, who's owners always seem to bang on about just how and why there cars are so much better than an original seven.

Oh and they also make a point of how little it cost them compared to a seven too, there's a trend here I think.

To me anything that looks like this :



Should always be confined to the owners and readers of total kit car magazines!

Oh and not a single,one of them ever bangs on about how poor the resale value is when it comes time to sell, compared to all the time and money they have spent on getting it to perform and handle!

Thank you for taking the time to post a picture of me and my wife enjoying a leisurley drive in France in my Yamaha R1 powered Sylva Phoenix. Was a great weekend.

Anyhow, I too am a big fan of Caterham 7's , having driven two 2012 cars in the last month alone, and 3 years back drivind a 210bhp Superlight R with Nitron suspension back to Blightey from two trackdays at Zolder.
I am not going to get into a debate about how superior Caterham 7s are, I cannot help it if you do not like the looks of it, but matey come out for a drive with me and I will show you how inferior those kit cars are ha ha ha.

Edited by Furyblade_Lee on Tuesday 30th August 21:05

[bcr5784]

Equus said:

And yet Ariel are (literally) selling as many cars as they wish to build... how many manufacturers can say that, in the current market?

If they wished to build 10000 cars a year they wouldn't sell them. They may well be at capacity for the processes they use - but that is meaningless. It's a bit like when Morgan were assessed by JHJ and they were agonising over whether they could increase production from 8 to 8 and half (yes really) a week.

[tight fart]

bcr5784 said:

And I speak as someone who has used a 7 as daily transport in all weathers over 10000 miles without hood or windscreen. .

I used to do 50k a year without a hood or screen an loved every minute of it.
There's still a big market for motorbikes, but when you move over to a car you'd expect a little bit more protection.

[bcr5784]

tight fart said:

I used to do 50k a year without a hood or screen an loved every minute of it.
There's still a big market for motorbikes, but when you move over to a car you'd expect a little bit more protection.

I think we agree actually, because I think you may have missed my point - I used to drive 10s of thousands of miles on motorbikes in all weathers TOO - my point was that we are NOT typical Caterham buyers - but some kit car (type) designers think we ARE. Caterham buyers (at least the bulk of them) specify a windscreen and hood, and other manufacturers of that type of car need to take note.

Edited by bcr5784 on Tuesday 30th August 20:29

[subirg]

I love my Caterham and applaud the fact that it has stated largely unchanged for many many years. The world is littered with the dead remains of companies that innovated themselves out of business. I'm glad Caterham has avoided that trap.

[bcr5784]

subirg said:

I love my Caterham and applaud the fact that it has stated largely unchanged for many many years. The world is littered with the dead remains of companies that innovated themselves out of business. I'm glad Caterham has avoided that trap.

I think those critical of Caterham (me too) do sometimes fail to take on board the fact that they have enthusiasts for the current car as is, that they have to satisfy too. It's the same issue Morgan have (albeit with a somewhat different ethos). Moving forward without losing their DNA really isn't that easy

[CanAm]

bcr5784 said:

Look how few Caterhams are sold sans hood and windscreen. It's not as if it's a cheap option. And yet both Zenos (what was Ansar Ali thinking?) and Atoms were introduced without either....

The Zenos prototypes weren't fitted with them but from the outset the design included a very easily fitted interchangeable screen module which has wipers and washers etc already fitted.

[Equus]

bcr5784 said:

If they wished to build 10000 cars a year they wouldn't sell them. They may well be at capacity for the processes they use - but that is meaningless.

Well, as I understand it, Simon Saunders has taken a decision on the maximum number of cars he wishes to sell, per year, structured his business and his facilities to suit, and that's that. It's not that they couldn't expand to build more, it's that they choose not to... he's got a successful, stable business, and he seems to be happy with that.

What's meaningless (despite the fact that you and I have both done it!) is the consideration of the Seven as a practical, everyday car. For every one masochistic idiot like us, there are a hundred who accept that it's really just a fair-weather toy, and get on with enjoying it within its limitations.

All-weather practicality should be very low on Caterham's list of marketing priorities, if they have any sense.

[coppice]

I don't know about that. Between the sheer (but admirable ) masochism of using one as daily driver and the other extreme of dragging the thing round on a trailer to trackdays there is a significant ownership demographic who do serious road trips in theirs and whilst aeroscreen tough guys may brazen it out in hail and rain , wusses like me prefer their ballistic quick sports car also to have ability to keep one both warm and dry. Ish.

[bcr5784]

coppice said:

I don't know about that. Between the sheer (but admirable ) masochism of using one as daily driver and the other extreme of dragging the thing round on a trailer to trackdays there is a significant ownership demographic who do serious road trips in theirs and whilst aeroscreen tough guys may brazen it out in hail and rain , wusses like me prefer their ballistic quick sports car also to have ability to keep one both warm and dry. Ish.

I suspect you are in the majority - the variety of luggage racks, boot bags and all manner of hoods on offer suggests that the wusses have it.

[Furyblade_Lee]

I am nit sure I would choose a full weather gear Caterham over an aeroscreened car? I have travelled msny times into Europe with a bunch if kitcars and the Caterhams seem to be roof up / roof down / roof up / roof down wiping water from every internal surface including their underpants . My friend in the aeroscreened Superlight was like me wearing a helmet and waterproof suit, much the same as the motorcylclist in our group. We were first at the bar bobe dry just taking our suits off, the hood guys were wringing wet from the intermittent showers and we had to keep stopping for them to faff about. And they were still wet!
My theory is if yiu are going to drive a silly car, a four wheeled motorbike, you may as well dress like a biker!

Also the screen on a 7 is not nice to sit behind at high speed, and must knock a fair few mph off, especially on the low power slower Caterhams? The screens on for instance the Fisher Fury are Lotus Elan S3 ones, at least they are curved and aerodynamically efficient, they do not really affect the top speed.

I think if I wanted a fast track car with weather protection, an Exige would be on the top of my list.

Edited by Furyblade_Lee on Wednesday 31st August 09:33

[coppice]

For lots of reasons I don't like aeroscreens on the road - and the helmet may be a sensible precaution against debris but I would feel like a total dick wearing one. And with half hood I can be dry in seconds. Each to their own and if the aeroscreen massive affects disdain for those who opt for some comfort I won't lose too much sleep about it ...

[downsman]

coppice said:

For lots of reasons I don't like aeroscreens on the road - and the helmet may be a sensible precaution against debris but I would feel like a total dick wearing one. And with half hood I can be dry in seconds. Each to their own and if the aeroscreen massive affects disdain for those who opt for some comfort I won't lose too much sleep about it ...

That's the way I see it, but each to their own.
The great thing about screen half hood set up, is I can take my better half away for a weekend and we both enjoy it. There is no way I would own a fun car in the UK without weather gear.

On tours with aeroscreen using friends, they generally have a wet bum and are pretty cold by the end of a really bad day in Wales. Where as a heater and half hood is nice and warm.

OK I'm a wuss

[subirg]

I may have a miracle Caterham, but I never get wet with my half hood set up. And the wipers work just fine and the windscreen doesn't cause any problems. At the track I change to aero if it's dry and the swap takes 10mins. Best of both options and I can pick and chose how I want to travel on any given day...

[bcr5784]

subirg said:

I may have a miracle Caterham, but I never get wet with my half hood set up. And the wipers work just fine and the windscreen doesn't cause any problems. At the track I change to aero if it's dry and the swap takes 10mins. Best of both options and I can pick and chose how I want to travel on any given day...

I rest my case - there are plenty of Caterham owners who value a degree of weather protection (and comfort!) and Caterham to their credit recognise this. Other kit car builders who want to actually sell cars (as opposed to design them) ignore that reality at their peril.

[nigelpugh7]

bcr5784 said:

I rest my case - there are plenty of Caterham owners who value a degree of weather protection (and comfort!) and Caterham to their credit recognise this. Other kit car builders who want to actually sell cars (as opposed to design them) ignore that reality at their peril.

I'm pretty much in the same situation regarding this.

My current and last three Caterhams all had the Aeroscreen and interchangeable windscreen too, for a quick 10 minute change its worth its weight in gold.

We have done thousands of miles across Europe to events and track days etc,,and the screen and half hood has always been just fine, you might get damp arms in torrential downpours but that's about it!

Also with the thunder sport boot bag on top of the boot, storage is fine for two adults for a week away, with a proper change of clothes as needed,

Let me see if I can find some pictures of our trip to France last year, we had no problems despite monsoon rain on this side of the channel!

[framerateuk]

subirg said:

I may have a miracle Caterham, but I never get wet with my half hood set up. And the wipers work just fine and the windscreen doesn't cause any problems. At the track I change to aero if it's dry and the swap takes 10mins. Best of both options and I can pick and chose how I want to travel on any given day...

Same. Did 10 days in a soaking wet Scotland and the only time we got wet outside of the car. With the half hood and boot bag we stayed completely dry. None of the other manufacturers seem to offer a car quite like the 7 in this respect. I love the look of the Zenos, but it's just not practical enough. I can switch to an aerosceen in a few minutes and be lapping as fast as anyone in a dedicated track car. The nearest thing is an Elise, but still heavier and by the end of most trackdays I'm passing them without too much trouble (and mine isn't a particularly fast 7!).