Ultimate Seven Product
Discussion
^^^ Precisely this. At this price point it i think it's the best compromise of track pace x road fun x cost to buy/run. I also like that it's simple and light enough that I can tinker with it myself and gently evolve it through loads of upgrade options. That's why it's so hard to improve upon the Caterham formula. Many have tried and none have succeeded yet. With ever increasing development, homologation and production costs, I think it is very unlikely that anyone will be able to do a better job anytime soon.
coppice said:
For lots of reasons I don't like aeroscreens on the road - and the helmet may be a sensible precaution against debris but I would feel like a total dick wearing one. And with half hood I can be dry in seconds. Each to their own and if the aeroscreen massive affects disdain for those who opt for some comfort I won't lose too much sleep about it ...
Agreed. I've done the whole 'aeroscreen on the road' thing, but I just got tired of it. It's fine if you're just pootling around below about 60mph, but above that it just becomes a bit much,and as you say, you feel a complete dick wearing a helmet on the road! Plus on a nice sunny day, you don't want to wear a helmet. Aeroscreen on track every time though 
Edited by ForzaGilles on Thursday 1st September 12:48
Equus said:
bcr5784 said:
There comes a point in impracticality for a car that is PRIMARILY used on the road where buyers draw the line.
Oh, absolutely... and the Caterham is way beyond that line for most people.
):- I do some trackways, normally 3-5 per year (thus I like the aeroscreen, low weight, and driving dynamics)
- I use it on a sunny day, to a pub for lunch maybe, or to see friends (and in this country that means you want SOME weather protection, even if it's just a half-hood and doors)
- I use it for the occasional long weekend away with the other half (so need at least enough luggage space for 2 small-medium sized bags)
There are clearly people who have a more "track/extreme" profile than me, and people who have a more "road/touring" profile, but I span across the middle of both.
The point with the Seven, is that it can satisfy all of us from absolute track junkies, through to people who only want to use their car for touring. Yes, it could be improved for either end of the spectrum, but the "Ultimate Seven Product" has to improve the car as a whole, without losing its ability to work for any of this spectrum.
So, the point being, yes there are other kit cars out there that improve on one particular area (particularly on the driving dynamics/track side), but they wouldn't satisfy my personal requirements for a Caterham (too impractical), and I think the same is probably true for the majority of owners.
Large scale evolution of the Seven/revolution from Caterham is certainly possible, and I'd love to see it, but it can't entirely sacrifice any of the above areas to get it.
On that note, Equus, I'd be really interested if you think there's another car available that fits the brief better? I LOVE the look and idea of some of the Sylva cars, but just wouldn't realistically suffer the practicality penalty.
hufggfg said:
On that note, Equus, I'd be really interested if you think there's another car available that fits the brief better? I LOVE the look and idea of some of the Sylva cars, but just wouldn't realistically suffer the practicality penalty.
Good luck with that, he offered me a list, then when I asked for it I got called a fanboy.
hufggfg said:
On that note, Equus, I'd be really interested if you think there's another car available that fits the brief better? I LOVE the look and idea of some of the Sylva cars, but just wouldn't realistically suffer the practicality penalty.
Well, they actually did a couple of versions of the Sylva specifically for Soft Southern Jessies. Essentially similar chassis and performance, but curved windscreen (less buffeting, less drag), hood, proper doors... even a radio, if you were so inclined. Pretty much a 'Seven' chassis with 'Elise' levels of civility, in concept.Quite close to the Caterham 21 in concept, in fact, but rather more successful commercially. Both Sylva variants are still available, via different companies and have sold fairly well.
The Sylva Fury:
The Sylva Stylus:
There's a boot accessible from within the cockpit on the Fury (and the Stylus has a proper, 'normal' boot, with lockable lid), and some people convert the non-exhaust side sill to carry more soft luggage, accessed by a panel in the top, within the cockpit.
Equus said:
Well, they actually did a couple of versions of the Sylva specifically for Soft Southern Jessies. Essentially similar chassis and performance, but curved windscreen (less buffeting, less drag), hood, proper doors... even a radio, if you were so inclined. Pretty much a 'Seven' chassis with 'Elise' levels of civility, in concept.
Quite close to the Caterham 21 in concept, in fact, but rather more successful commercially. Both Sylva variants are still available, via different companies and have sold fairly well.
The Sylva Fury:
The Sylva Stylus:
There's a boot accessible from within the cockpit on the Fury (and the Stylus has a proper, 'normal' boot, with lockable lid), and some people convert the non-exhaust side sill to carry more soft luggage, accessed by a panel in the top, within the cockpit.
Yes but these cars (whatever their merits - and not having seen them I can't comment on fit and finish) are not competing with a Caterham. The bulk of todays Caterham owners (like Lotus Elan and Europa owners of the past) either want a straightforward kit that anyone with a modicum of knowledge and an engine hoist can construct or want a factory build. They are not (for the most part) the sort to go round scrap yards picking up engines and differentials, or folding aluminium to make body parts.Quite close to the Caterham 21 in concept, in fact, but rather more successful commercially. Both Sylva variants are still available, via different companies and have sold fairly well.
The Sylva Fury:
The Sylva Stylus:
There's a boot accessible from within the cockpit on the Fury (and the Stylus has a proper, 'normal' boot, with lockable lid), and some people convert the non-exhaust side sill to carry more soft luggage, accessed by a panel in the top, within the cockpit.
And I have to say that anyone suggesting they can produce a car as well developed as a Caterham with anything from a bike engine to a V6 doesn't really inspire confidence.
Clearly there are individuals who relish the challenge of fitting a Hayasaki or V6 engine into such cars, experimenting with a plethora of suspension settings until they get something workable - but I would suggest they are not, for the most part people who buy Caterhams (or Zenos or Atom or Radical). Westfield buyers, perhaps.
Westfield have a much more developed product now. When I built one in 1990, it turned out the front springs supplied were the same for a Crossflow or a Pinto and there was no advice how to set the dampers.
If you have a close look at a modern Westfield, the quality is good and some of the design superior to a Caterham in my opinion.
By the way, my brother owns a Fury, and it is just as good to drive as my Caterham and certainly quicker on track but it does have 20bhp more and better aerodynamics. I'm not likely to offer to swap cars with him though
If you have a close look at a modern Westfield, the quality is good and some of the design superior to a Caterham in my opinion.
By the way, my brother owns a Fury, and it is just as good to drive as my Caterham and certainly quicker on track but it does have 20bhp more and better aerodynamics. I'm not likely to offer to swap cars with him though
bcr5784 said:
Yes but these cars (whatever their merits - and not having seen them I can't comment on fit and finish) are not competing with a Caterham.
To some degree, they are. And if you don't want to get your pretty little fingers dirty, their manufacturers are willing to produce one for you ready-built and IVA'd, if you wish (usually at less than the cost of a Caterham in kit form). If you're a congenital idiot, there are companies that will set up the suspension and handling for you at a very modest price.Just as there as there is a broad spectrum of attitudes to weather protection, so there is a broad spectrum of attitudes to how much work you're willing to put in yourself. Cars like the Lotus Elise and Zenos (which are not even available in kit form) lie at one end. Locosts and other plans-built cars that you knock together from a pile of steel tube lie at the other.
Caterhams, Westfields, Sylvas and the rest all lie somewhere in the middle, to varying degrees, but to say that there is a clear cut and absolute distinction between the Caterham and other kit cars is nonsense. That's just the usual crap that Caterham owners come out with in an attempt to justify to themselves the fact that they've paid a heavy premium for something that really isn't that much different from any other kit car.
I went from a Westfield, to a Caterham, to a Sylva, before moving on to Elises and Elans...
I wouldn't go back to a Caterham - at least not unless they come up with something different enough to tempt me.
I might go back to a Westfield Eleven, or a Sylva Phoenix or J15.
downsman said:
If you have a close look at a modern Westfield, the quality is good and some of the design superior to a Caterham in my opinion.
By the way, my brother owns a Fury, and it is just as good to drive as my Caterham and certainly quicker on track but it does have 20bhp more and better aerodynamics. I'm not likely to offer to swap cars with him though
I have driven several Westfields in recent years (and my son has raced both them and Caterhams) and I certainly WOULDN'T argue that a Caterham is MILES better - but a Caterham is lighter, (IMO) steers better and is finished a bit better. If the IRS actually confers any benefits I've missed them. Sure a Westfield is cheaper to buy, but a Caterham holds it value fantastically well so is cheaper to own.By the way, my brother owns a Fury, and it is just as good to drive as my Caterham and certainly quicker on track but it does have 20bhp more and better aerodynamics. I'm not likely to offer to swap cars with him though
So why wouldn't you offer to swap his Fury for your Caterham?
My Caterham is just a really great car to drive and own. The handling is good, all the controls well positioned and good feel. Great Tillet seats, the side screens and half hood make it surprisingly weather proof when needed and I've always loved the Seven style.
The Fury is quick and a bargain, but would need a lot of work to get it to the stage where it could replace my car.
The Fury is quick and a bargain, but would need a lot of work to get it to the stage where it could replace my car.
Equus said:
To some degree, they are. And if you don't want to get your pretty little fingers dirty, their manufacturers are willing to produce one for you ready-built and IVA'd, if you wish (usually at less than the cost of a Caterham in kit form). If you're a congenital idiot, there are companies that will set up the suspension and handling for you at a very modest price.
Berating the customer for his lack of nouse or commitment won't get you very far if you actually want to sell cars.Equus said:
Just as there as there is a broad spectrum of attitudes to weather protection, so there is a broad spectrum of attitudes to how much work you're willing to put in yourself. Cars like the Lotus Elise and Zenos (which are not even available in kit form) lie at one end. Locosts and other plans-built cars that you knock together from a pile of steel tube lie at the other.
Yes - and Caterham lie in the middle - that's why they are the most the most successful.Equus said:
Caterhams, Westfields, Sylvas and the rest all lie somewhere in the middle, to varying degrees, but to say that there is a clear cut and absolute distinction between the Caterham and other kit cars is nonsense. That's just the usual crap that Caterham owners come out with in an attempt to justify to themselves the fact that they've paid a heavy premium for something that really isn't that much different from any other kit car.
Caterhams may be expensive to buy, but almost certainly the cheapest to own (unless you don't value your own time) That is one BIG attraction of buying them. You can have a completely silly car without it costing you anything at all if you build it yourself - which is pretty easy and doesn't take that long. Equus said:
I went from a Westfield, to a Caterham, to a Sylva, before moving on to Elises and Elans...
I wouldn't go back to a Caterham - at least not unless they come up with something different enough to tempt me.
I might go back to a Westfield Eleven, or a Sylva Phoenix or J15.
I went from a Europa S2(kit) to a Caterham(kit) to an Elise. Having tried lots of other stuff am going back to a Caterham....I wouldn't go back to a Caterham - at least not unless they come up with something different enough to tempt me.
I might go back to a Westfield Eleven, or a Sylva Phoenix or J15.
Equus said:
Some stuff about Sylvas
Certainly Interesting, so can you swap them between the full screen and aero screen type thing?To be perfectly honest, it probably wouldn't tempt me away from the Caterham for multiple reasons (we can go into them if you want, but they largely boil down to me wanting something supported by a large-ish company,, but if Caterham (or someone else) were to produce such a car, then I'd certainly be interested if it had advantages over the Seven without a big weight penalty. Which was really what the discussion here started off as.
Dynamically a Caterham is no better than many other PROPERLY SORTED AND BUILT 7" style kit cars, not shonky £6k budget built replicas. They ultimately are still a box section tube chassis with mainstream production car running gear. Witness the 750 MC championships where Caterhams have been up against other kit cars... Namely in the RGB bike-engined series around 10 years sgo where all the cars ran identical 919 Fireblades. Two factory built and run Westfield Megablades and a big budget Caterham Fireblade were nowhere against the hordes of Fisher Fury's, mostly home assembled and much cheaper. They litterally drove away from the 7's over 100mph due to the aerodynamics, but the same aerodynamics which make Caterham one make racing so exciting....
But overally Caterhams trump card is the fact that all chassis come pre powdercoated, pannelled, plumbed and wired. When people say they "built" their own Caterham they actually didn't, the just bolted a lot of boxed parts together over a weekend or two. It's not building your own car! So even The Chucklebrothers could build a Caterham snd pass a factory inspection. It means quality is assured, and that is where a lot of kit cars are let down. Anything bolted to it can be rectified. So a Caterhsm is generally a superior quality product, but dynamically and performance wise not always. I love Caterhams, but not naieve enough to think they are dynsmically superior to the best of the kit car world.
But overally Caterhams trump card is the fact that all chassis come pre powdercoated, pannelled, plumbed and wired. When people say they "built" their own Caterham they actually didn't, the just bolted a lot of boxed parts together over a weekend or two. It's not building your own car! So even The Chucklebrothers could build a Caterham snd pass a factory inspection. It means quality is assured, and that is where a lot of kit cars are let down. Anything bolted to it can be rectified. So a Caterhsm is generally a superior quality product, but dynamically and performance wise not always. I love Caterhams, but not naieve enough to think they are dynsmically superior to the best of the kit car world.
Edited by Furyblade_Lee on Thursday 1st September 22:40
bcr5784 said:
Berating the customer for his lack of nouse or commitment won't get you very far if you actually want to sell cars.
But then I don't sell cars for a living, so it doesn't bother me. 
bcr5784 said:
Yes - and Caterham lie in the middle - that's why they are the most the most successful.
You're having a laugh, right? Caterham (and all the other cars we're discussing here) are off at the very extreme end of the sports car market.The Mazda MX5 is in the middle, which is why it is the most successful sports car in the world, by far, with production figures that make Caterham's sales look virtually non-existent in comparison.
The Elise is closer to the Mazda's middle ground, too, which is why it also sells in greater numbers. Sylva and others are even further to the extreme, certainly, but only by a small distance in relative terms.
Equus said:
To some degree, they are. And if you don't want to get your pretty little fingers dirty, their manufacturers are willing to produce one for you ready-built and IVA'd, if you wish (usually at less than the cost of a Caterham in kit form). If you're a congenital idiot, there are companies that will set up the suspension and handling for you at a very modest price.
If you like getting your fingers dirty that's just fine, and if you like setting up suspension I'm sure that's a useful skill and makes you an utterly fascinating chap to talk to at parties. Personally I am a bloody liability with anything involving spanners except under close supervision. I can't say I lose any sleep over that.... Equus said:
You're having a laugh, right? Caterham (and all the other cars we're discussing here) are off at the very extreme end of the sports car market.
Sure they are at one end of the sports car market - but they are in the middle of the stripped out market with the Elise at one end and Q plate cars at the other. Caterham haven't been in the Q plate market in a meaningfull sense for a long time (their cars were only Q plate for a long time because they were supplied from the factory with rebuilt T9 gearboxes.)That is a good move from their point of view because, as has been said, quality is reasonably assured - and second hand values reflect that. Go away from the factory Caterham item and it hits your resale badly.
coppice said:
If you like getting your fingers dirty that's just fine, and if you like setting up suspension I'm sure that's a useful skill and makes you an utterly fascinating chap to talk to at parties. Personally I am a bloody liability with anything involving spanners except under close supervision. I can't say I lose any sleep over that....
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