Ultimate Seven Product

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coppice said:

I don't know about that. Between the sheer (but admirable ) masochism of using one as daily driver and the other extreme of dragging the thing round on a trailer to trackdays there is a significant ownership demographic who do serious road trips in theirs and whilst aeroscreen tough guys may brazen it out in hail and rain , wusses like me prefer their ballistic quick sports car also to have ability to keep one both warm and dry. Ish.

I suspect you are in the majority - the variety of luggage racks, boot bags and all manner of hoods on offer suggests that the wusses have it.

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subirg said:

I may have a miracle Caterham, but I never get wet with my half hood set up. And the wipers work just fine and the windscreen doesn't cause any problems. At the track I change to aero if it's dry and the swap takes 10mins. Best of both options and I can pick and chose how I want to travel on any given day...

I rest my case - there are plenty of Caterham owners who value a degree of weather protection (and comfort!) and Caterham to their credit recognise this. Other kit car builders who want to actually sell cars (as opposed to design them) ignore that reality at their peril.

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Equus said:

Well, they actually did a couple of versions of the Sylva specifically for Soft Southern Jessies. Essentially similar chassis and performance, but curved windscreen (less buffeting, less drag), hood, proper doors... even a radio, if you were so inclined. Pretty much a 'Seven' chassis with 'Elise' levels of civility, in concept.

Quite close to the Caterham 21 in concept, in fact, but rather more successful commercially. Both Sylva variants are still available, via different companies and have sold fairly well.

The Sylva Fury:





The Sylva Stylus:



There's a boot accessible from within the cockpit on the Fury (and the Stylus has a proper, 'normal' boot, with lockable lid), and some people convert the non-exhaust side sill to carry more soft luggage, accessed by a panel in the top, within the cockpit.

Yes but these cars (whatever their merits - and not having seen them I can't comment on fit and finish) are not competing with a Caterham. The bulk of todays Caterham owners (like Lotus Elan and Europa owners of the past) either want a straightforward kit that anyone with a modicum of knowledge and an engine hoist can construct or want a factory build. They are not (for the most part) the sort to go round scrap yards picking up engines and differentials, or folding aluminium to make body parts.

And I have to say that anyone suggesting they can produce a car as well developed as a Caterham with anything from a bike engine to a V6 doesn't really inspire confidence.

Clearly there are individuals who relish the challenge of fitting a Hayasaki or V6 engine into such cars, experimenting with a plethora of suspension settings until they get something workable - but I would suggest they are not, for the most part people who buy Caterhams (or Zenos or Atom or Radical). Westfield buyers, perhaps.

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downsman said:

If you have a close look at a modern Westfield, the quality is good and some of the design superior to a Caterham in my opinion.

By the way, my brother owns a Fury, and it is just as good to drive as my Caterham and certainly quicker on track but it does have 20bhp more and better aerodynamics. I'm not likely to offer to swap cars with him though

I have driven several Westfields in recent years (and my son has raced both them and Caterhams) and I certainly WOULDN'T argue that a Caterham is MILES better - but a Caterham is lighter, (IMO) steers better and is finished a bit better. If the IRS actually confers any benefits I've missed them. Sure a Westfield is cheaper to buy, but a Caterham holds it value fantastically well so is cheaper to own.

So why wouldn't you offer to swap his Fury for your Caterham?

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Equus said:

To some degree, they are. And if you don't want to get your pretty little fingers dirty, their manufacturers are willing to produce one for you ready-built and IVA'd, if you wish (usually at less than the cost of a Caterham in kit form). If you're a congenital idiot, there are companies that will set up the suspension and handling for you at a very modest price.

Berating the customer for his lack of nouse or commitment won't get you very far if you actually want to sell cars.

Equus said:

Just as there as there is a broad spectrum of attitudes to weather protection, so there is a broad spectrum of attitudes to how much work you're willing to put in yourself. Cars like the Lotus Elise and Zenos (which are not even available in kit form) lie at one end. Locosts and other plans-built cars that you knock together from a pile of steel tube lie at the other.

Yes - and Caterham lie in the middle - that's why they are the most the most successful.

Equus said:

Caterhams, Westfields, Sylvas and the rest all lie somewhere in the middle, to varying degrees, but to say that there is a clear cut and absolute distinction between the Caterham and other kit cars is nonsense. That's just the usual crap that Caterham owners come out with in an attempt to justify to themselves the fact that they've paid a heavy premium for something that really isn't that much different from any other kit car.

Caterhams may be expensive to buy, but almost certainly the cheapest to own (unless you don't value your own time) That is one BIG attraction of buying them. You can have a completely silly car without it costing you anything at all if you build it yourself - which is pretty easy and doesn't take that long.

Equus said:

I went from a Westfield, to a Caterham, to a Sylva, before moving on to Elises and Elans...

I wouldn't go back to a Caterham - at least not unless they come up with something different enough to tempt me.

I might go back to a Westfield Eleven, or a Sylva Phoenix or J15.

I went from a Europa S2(kit) to a Caterham(kit) to an Elise. Having tried lots of other stuff am going back to a Caterham....

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Equus said:

You're having a laugh, right? Caterham (and all the other cars we're discussing here) are off at the very extreme end of the sports car market.

Sure they are at one end of the sports car market - but they are in the middle of the stripped out market with the Elise at one end and Q plate cars at the other. Caterham haven't been in the Q plate market in a meaningfull sense for a long time (their cars were only Q plate for a long time because they were supplied from the factory with rebuilt T9 gearboxes.)

That is a good move from their point of view because, as has been said, quality is reasonably assured - and second hand values reflect that. Go away from the factory Caterham item and it hits your resale badly.

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coppice said:

If you like getting your fingers dirty that's just fine, and if you like setting up suspension I'm sure that's a useful skill and makes you an utterly fascinating chap to talk to at parties. Personally I am a bloody liability with anything involving spanners except under close supervision. I can't say I lose any sleep over that....

The beauty of the Caterham is that you don't need to be an ace mechanic to build one. A half decent selection of tools, an engine hoist and a reasonable collection of swear words will see you through.

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Equus said:

I'm sure you can place any car you like in the middle of your imaginary market segment, if you choose where to draw that segment's dividing lines carefully enough. It doesn't make it true in any way.

It does amuse me that Caterham owners seem to be unique amongst kit car owners in actually taking pride in their lack of technical competence, although as I've said previously, any of the other kit car manufacturers will build their case to whatever stage and specification you like, as a general rule, so there's no real reason that numpties are limited to Caterhams, apart from their lack of imagination..

An overriding reason for sticking to Caterhams (rather than more obscure kit car makers) for factory builds is resale value.

In any case there are (I'm sure) plenty of people like myself who are quite capable of building a "real" kit car, and getting it set up properly, who simply prefer to spend their time on other things. I've rebuilt enough engines and gearboxes, played with enough suspensions, thank you and now I'd like something that just works. It's not a crime. It "amuses" me that some people who as steeped in "real" kit cars don't seem to understand that not everyone has the same priorities/interests as they do - or even the same interests as they themselves had 20 years previously.