40k for a Caterham, worth buying new?
Discussion
Having had 5 sevens (2 Supersprints, original superlight, 17 year break, Supersport and now a new 420R, I would suggest you go for a 2nd hand lower powered car such as a superlight or supersport (Williams have a cracking car). Caterhams are very different to your normal tin top and are not everyone's cup of tea. If you start with say a good supersport or the like it will feel fast and you will get used to the way it drives and handles. I would then consider stepping up to to a 420 or 620. (You won't lose to much cash on the lower powered car)
Unless you have a lot of experience or have raced, a 420 or 620 will feel mental. Beware in the wet, they are all tricky.
Unless you have a lot of experience or have raced, a 420 or 620 will feel mental. Beware in the wet, they are all tricky.
The Orig Fergie said:
Having had 5 sevens (2 Supersprints, original superlight, 17 year break, Supersport and now a new 420R, I would suggest you go for a 2nd hand lower powered car such as a superlight or supersport (Williams have a cracking car). Caterhams are very different to your normal tin top and are not everyone's cup of tea. If you start with say a good supersport or the like it will feel fast and you will get used to the way it drives and handles. I would then consider stepping up to to a 420 or 620. (You won't lose to much cash on the lower powered car)
Unless you have a lot of experience or have raced, a 420 or 620 will feel mental. Beware in the wet, they are all tricky.
A sensible word or caution. Lower powered Caterhams are wonderfully balanced and (basically) forgiving and playful cars. But they have absolutely non of the granny aids universal in the mass produced world - no abs, no stability controls, so even they can bite. The higher powered cars have far more power than grip in many situations- a 620 can produce wheelspin in the first 3 gears in the dry, let alone the wet, and (even) the 420/360/R300 require a far more delicate touch in the wet than your BMW or a typical hothatch. Unless you have a lot of experience or have raced, a 420 or 620 will feel mental. Beware in the wet, they are all tricky.
+1
Any 7 feels fantastic and turns you into a driving god. Then one day when you hurl it into a corner knowing that a steady foot and a dab of oppo will get you round you make a mistake and discover that you actually ran out of talent about 20mph ago. No electronics are going to save you. So do reflect on your usage and skills. Unless you are an experienced track racer, 150bmp (some say 200) is ample. Any more will just mean you leave the road backwards at a higher speed.
Any 7 feels fantastic and turns you into a driving god. Then one day when you hurl it into a corner knowing that a steady foot and a dab of oppo will get you round you make a mistake and discover that you actually ran out of talent about 20mph ago. No electronics are going to save you. So do reflect on your usage and skills. Unless you are an experienced track racer, 150bmp (some say 200) is ample. Any more will just mean you leave the road backwards at a higher speed.
Another +1 for the lack of driver AIDS. The main thing I hadn't realised was how much modern cars interfere with the throttle. If you mash the throttle the ECU thinks "I wouldn't do that - here is a more linear delivery that my engineers have told me is safer" (and more economic in many cases). In a 7, you get what you asked for, lots of wheel spin and a rotating car!
I originally had a 150bhp 7, bought second hand. It was great on the fantastic on corners and roundabouts but I found turbo tin tops could be a problem unless you kept the revs in the sweet spot in a straight line. I paid 19k for it with 18k on the clock and sold it back to Caterham 4 years later for 17k, with 38k on the clock.
I upgraded to a CSR 260 - the main reason was the track days. A 7 is faster than most cars on track, particularly round the corners... Where you cannot overtake! On the straights, although the big engined cars would lift slightlyou often didn't have the power to complete an overtake..
It is never a problem in the CSR! But you have to be very careful on roads in the wet - 25% throttle is plenty and any more could be disaster unless you are awake.
Steve
I originally had a 150bhp 7, bought second hand. It was great on the fantastic on corners and roundabouts but I found turbo tin tops could be a problem unless you kept the revs in the sweet spot in a straight line. I paid 19k for it with 18k on the clock and sold it back to Caterham 4 years later for 17k, with 38k on the clock.
I upgraded to a CSR 260 - the main reason was the track days. A 7 is faster than most cars on track, particularly round the corners... Where you cannot overtake! On the straights, although the big engined cars would lift slightlyou often didn't have the power to complete an overtake..
It is never a problem in the CSR! But you have to be very careful on roads in the wet - 25% throttle is plenty and any more could be disaster unless you are awake.
Steve
Edited by sjmmarsh on Wednesday 24th August 07:37
The Orig Fergie said:
Having had 5 sevens (2 Supersprints, original superlight, 17 year break, Supersport and now a new 420R, I would suggest you go for a 2nd hand lower powered car such as a superlight or supersport (Williams have a cracking car). Caterhams are very different to your normal tin top and are not everyone's cup of tea. If you start with say a good supersport or the like it will feel fast and you will get used to the way it drives and handles. I would then consider stepping up to to a 420 or 620. (You won't lose to much cash on the lower powered car)
Unless you have a lot of experience or have raced, a 420 or 620 will feel mental. Beware in the wet, they are all tricky.
I think I'm buying your Supersport from Williams. Is it the blue S3 with a white stripe?Unless you have a lot of experience or have raced, a 420 or 620 will feel mental. Beware in the wet, they are all tricky.
HypeM135i said:
I like the idea of buying new as A) I'll not be putting many miles on it B) I know it's not going to have any problems C) When I eventually come to sell I'll have a mint 1 owner example factory built with hardly any miles.
I'll have to disagree with points B & C.A new car will have far more problems than one that is a year or two old. I dont think there will be many people that have bought a Caterham new and not had to have one or two things "corrected" under warrenty. So dont buy one under this assumption because you will be disappointed. A used car will have had all these issues ironed out. From what I've seen most home built cars are built to a much higher quality than factory built ones, and likewise a car owned and serviced by an enthusiast will generally run and drive much better than one thats only been into Caterham once a year for its service.
Point C.. Your assertion is certainly correct that you will have a factory, one owner car to sell. But from this I assume that you are thinking about depreciation and re-sale value. Just like any car, the first owner will always take the biggest depreciation hit so I wouldn't use these points as "man maths" to justify buying new to yourself. Also I dont think the second hand market really attributes any additional value to factory built cars (see above).
It sounds to me like you just want a new car.
I get that - I have a new car myself. 
There is no point trying to justify it financially or otherwise because in no rational world does it make sense to buy new other than because you want something shiny and new.One of the reasons I didn't enjoy my brand new Caterham as much as I might have done was because it was completely new, shiny, unmarked - a thing of beauty. I hated every stone chip and mark and slightly rusty bolt. I was much more comfortable to drive and abuse all the used ones I owned! And to add to what others have said, bigger HP is not necc the best. It's personal taste. I went up to 230bhp and found I enjoyed 135bhp much more. As for spending 40k on a 7, that feels odd to me.
As for comparing with a BMW. It'll make the BMW feel like a fat old lumpy sofa Any 7 will do that in fact!
As for comparing with a BMW. It'll make the BMW feel like a fat old lumpy sofa
Any 7 will do that in fact!mharris said:
From what I've seen most home built cars are built to a much higher quality than factory built ones
While I'm more aware than most that factory built cars are not perfect, I'd say they are consistently pretty good these days, and better than 95% of the home builds we see.
REALIST123 said:
My spider senses tell me it might not be the car for you! It's meaningless to draw a comparison with your road car. It'll be much faster in many situations but will take a lot more skill and effort to be so. The ride is pretty poor compared to most road cars ( a Caterham soon shows you crappy most of our roads are!), most creature comforts are non existent and you'll need to wear hearing protection when you drive it.
Don't get me wrong, I love the R400 I built last year and wouldn't ever part with it. I just wouldn't want to not have good alternatives for many occasions
Maybe it's just me but a lot of the pleasure of ownership, apart from building oneself, is in maintaining and modding the car! Will you be doing that? I'm not sure a factory build is any guarantee of trouble free motoring, I think I'd prefer a competent self build myself.
Whatever you do, have a good drive in one before you buy!
It's 100% for me, trust me. I know it's a completely different experience to the M235i and that's what I am looking for. I am looking for the rawest experience possible, with no traction, no abs, just me and the car and the elements. I also don't underestimate it and will likely just slowly bed it in very softly to get used to things so I don't spin it at every occasion. But ultimately, I am 100% set on a Caterham, just not sure whether to spend a lot on a new one, or look further down the chain.Don't get me wrong, I love the R400 I built last year and wouldn't ever part with it. I just wouldn't want to not have good alternatives for many occasions
Maybe it's just me but a lot of the pleasure of ownership, apart from building oneself, is in maintaining and modding the car! Will you be doing that? I'm not sure a factory build is any guarantee of trouble free motoring, I think I'd prefer a competent self build myself.
Whatever you do, have a good drive in one before you buy!
sjmmarsh said:
Another +1 for the lack of driver AIDS. The main thing I hadn't realised was how much modern cars interfere with the throttle. If you mash the throttle the ECU thinks "I wouldn't do that - here is a more linear delivery that my engineers have told me is safer" (and more economic in many cases). In a 7, you get what you asked for, lots of wheel spin and a rotating car!
I originally had a 150bhp 7, bought second hand. It was great on the fantastic on corners and roundabouts but I found turbo tin tops could be a problem unless you kept the revs in the sweet spot in a straight line. I paid 19k for it with 18k on the clock and sold it back to Caterham 4 years later for 17k, with 38k on the clock.
I upgraded to a CSR 260 - the main reason was the track days. A 7 is faster than most cars on track, particularly round the corners... Where you cannot overtake! On the straights, although the big engined cars would lift slightlyou often didn't have the power to complete an overtake..
It is never a problem in the CSR! But you have to be very careful on roads in the wet - 25% throttle is plenty and any more could be disaster unless you are awake.
Steve
That's the thing, I want something absolutely brutal. I want something that will spit me off on full throttle, that's the where the excitement comes in and I really want something quick as well. Maybe the 420R will be too fast, I'm not sure but I find even in the M235i (yes completely different and just a car) with that coming in at about 4.6 to 60 I still find myself wanting a ton more power, so I think maybe something like the 420R will be perfect. I've also watched one of the YouTube reviews on the 620 with Mike what's his name, and you can see he's just brushing the throttle gently whilst going at a rapid pace, but I love that it just looks like a complete whale of a time!I originally had a 150bhp 7, bought second hand. It was great on the fantastic on corners and roundabouts but I found turbo tin tops could be a problem unless you kept the revs in the sweet spot in a straight line. I paid 19k for it with 18k on the clock and sold it back to Caterham 4 years later for 17k, with 38k on the clock.
I upgraded to a CSR 260 - the main reason was the track days. A 7 is faster than most cars on track, particularly round the corners... Where you cannot overtake! On the straights, although the big engined cars would lift slightlyou often didn't have the power to complete an overtake..
It is never a problem in the CSR! But you have to be very careful on roads in the wet - 25% throttle is plenty and any more could be disaster unless you are awake.
Steve
Edited by sjmmarsh on Wednesday 24th August 07:37
Master Bean said:
Back left
Now that's one in the back left is lovely, beautiful colour too. What age was that, and how does it differ from the latest models. This is the only thing I am finding confusing, is the fact Caterham have so many models, at some many ages and specs it's just incredibly difficult to know what to go for!?HypeM135i said:
That's the thing, I want something absolutely brutal. I want something that will spit me off on full throttle, that's the where the excitement comes in and I really want something quick as well. Maybe the 420R will be too fast, I'm not sure but I find even in the M235i (yes completely different and just a car) with that coming in at about 4.6 to 60 I still find myself wanting a ton more power, so I think maybe something like the 420R will be perfect. I've also watched one of the YouTube reviews on the 620 with Mike what's his name, and you can see he's just brushing the throttle gently whilst going at a rapid pace, but I love that it just looks like a complete whale of a time!
Ok health warnings taken on board (though forgot to mention lack of airbags, crush zones or side impact protection!) to the spec.5 vs 6 speed.
The 6 speed box was designed for K series engines with relatively little torque. The result is very close ratios - as people will tell you, it feels like it has 1st and 5 seconds. The 420 has a lot of torque and absolutely does not the 6 speed and you will almost certainly lose more time changing gear than you will ever gain by keeping it on the boil. Of course you will have a gear for every occasion (probably at least 2!). All that said many (most?) favour the 6 speed just for the pleasure of changing gear. Personally I wouldn't and £2500 is very hard to swallow.
Given you are going for a "comfort" spec - windscreen and carpets - I'd go for a heater as well. There is a lot of heat off the transmission tunnel when the car is warm, but before that it can get nippy. I didn't on mine and used it as a daily - so would have appreciated it on occasion.
Along those lines I'd think about a 420S - you are halfway there already. I'd definitely add an LSD though. For track use the stiffer suspension of the R might be preferable, but for bumpy British roads the extra compliance of the S suspension might be better. (S doesn't stand for soft!)
But don't follow our recommendations - try some options and make up your own mind.
Gassing Station | Caterham | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff