310 vs 360 Please help me decide :-)

310 vs 360 Please help me decide :-)

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Discussion

AndyHornyak

Original Poster:

4 posts

149 months

Thursday 25th August 2016
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Hi All,

I'm looking at placing an order for a Caterham 7 pretty soon, I had pretty much decided on a 310 but then started thinking perhaps the 360 may be worth considering for the extra 2k, Either would be with the R pack and 5 speed box as this would fit my budget, going to the 360 would stretch it but I'd like some opinions from owners.

I've done some searching and it does seem to be a mixed bag of what may be better, consensus being that the smaller engine is lively and revy which adds to the experience, so does this make the 2L less involving? or should the 2L really be paired with the 6 speed box?

Also could the 360 be later tuned to the 420 spec power output? as I'd be getting the car to keep for some time so I could upgrade it over time whereas the 1.6 in 310 form is closer to it's max, I'd be using it mostly for road work with the occasional track day thrown in.

Going for a new as I want to shred my knuckles and build one.

Thanks in advance :-)

Amris

157 posts

167 months

Thursday 25th August 2016
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Hi Andy,

Generically speaking the consensus is lighter smaller engines mean the car handles better as less weight over the front end allows for a better turn in. However the duratec has more torque which comes with its own benefits (like break loose the rear end).

Sounds like you are buying new so if it was me I would get down to Caterham and test drive both and make your decision from there.

Agree with your comments on power upgrades though. Getting more out of the sigma could be costly in comparison to some of the bolt on options available to the R300, and sooner all owners suffer from upgradeitus be it power, handling or aesthetics

:-)

jimmy7

687 posts

206 months

Thursday 25th August 2016
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I personally felt the 6 speed box was a must have with with the 270 (at the time), it just felt as if it kept the engine on song all the while as the ratios are so short. But would be down to personal preference at the end of the day.

I believe you are right in thinking the 360 could be upgraded to 420 spec if desired although im not sure whats involved.

As above, got to drive them both to make an informed decision.


dbailey81

13 posts

94 months

Thursday 25th August 2016
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I wasn't sure which model to go for but in the end I've gone for the 360.

I came to this conclusion after doing a few test drives at cc crawley. I loved the duratec engine torque combined with the mx5 5 speed box. I was tempted to go for the 420 but decided against it once I'd found out about the upgrades avail at a later date. For 4k cc will take your 360 back. They'll do a load of mods & then hand it back with 220bhp making it a seven 440!

Glenn T

25 posts

107 months

Thursday 25th August 2016
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I've got a k series 1.6k with about 150bhp and a 5 speed box. If you are mostly interested in road use this is fine and all you'll ever need, however, if you start (and continue) doing track days, you'll want a 6 speed box and will before long crave the 360 power.

Best advice is to try them both, just bear in mind that the 310 will feel mighty fast on the road anyway.

Personally, I'd buy a 360 with a six speed box, even if this meant getting a second hand one rather than new.

Finally, there is no "bad" decision, you're buying a caterham! 👍👍

Dave_H34

29 posts

95 months

Thursday 25th August 2016
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The 310 will likely be sweeter but of course will be slower. There's upgrades for the Sigma up to around 200bhp I think but they don't come cheap and aren't Caterham approved (resale value hit). The 360 will have a lump more torque and I'd say this doesn't suit the 6 speed box, 6th is the same as 4th on the 5 speed so you get less gear range and more gears! The 360 can be upgraded to 220bhp by Caterham for around £4k (I can dig out the invoice if you need an accurate figure). I do understand the whole 'balanced package' thing but when spending a good lump of cash on a sports car I want it to be reasonably quick!

framerateuk

2,730 posts

183 months

Thursday 25th August 2016
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Just to add my own experience: I've had a Roadsport 140 for 4 years - I guess it's the equivalent of the 270/310 R with all the add ons (LSD, 6 Speed, Aero, AP brakes).

On the road, it's brilliant, and on trackdays, by the end of the day there's not much going past me. It's a car that really encourages you to carry the speed through the corners and try not to loose any!

It isn't, however, a car that has gobs of straight line pace on a track. You'll still find that you're held up by people on straights unless they lift to let you pass.

While I'm really enjoying the car, I think I'll be looking for a bit more power in the next couple of years, but I feel I'm learning so much with it at the moment, that it would be a shame to move on to more power just yet.

There are a few options for upgrading the Sigma engine (and given how good the rest of the car is, I'm tempted with this!), but you won't get a return on the money spent if you sell.

If I was buying a new 7 now, I'd probably got for a 420R with a 6 speed box, but if buying my first 7, I'd still go for the 1.6,

ghibbett

1,900 posts

184 months

Friday 26th August 2016
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framerateuk said:
If I was buying a new 7 now, I'd probably got for a 420R with a 6 speed box, but if buying my first 7, I'd still go for the 1.6,
I'd echo this - good advice thumbup

AndyHornyak

Original Poster:

4 posts

149 months

Friday 26th August 2016
quotequote all
Thanks guys for all the feedback, much appreciated, I like the idea of the more revy 1.6 and coming from riding bikes on and off the track before I know how much fun / rewarding a smaller engine can be when keeping it on the boil but I've always gone back to a bigger engine eventually, Though I don't think either the 1.6/2.0 will exactly feel slow.

As per your advice though I'll be booking test drives soon,

Love the comment from Glenn T "Finally, there is no "bad" decision, you're buying a caterham!" that does certainly seem to be the resounding opinion from everywhere :-) :-)

downsman

1,099 posts

155 months

Friday 26th August 2016
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All sounds good advice to me smile

If you plan to do any touring, the 5 speed box is much nicer as the overdrive top drops the revs considerably.
If you decide on the 2 litre, then the torque will suit the five speed and make top a usable gear too.

I have just the 125bhp 1.6 but it is great fun on the road with the 5 speed, and I have fun on track without being especially quick, so you'll enjoy whatever you buy.

tomwoodis

570 posts

183 months

Friday 26th August 2016
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Some great advice so far. I had the same dilemma a few years ago albeit at that time it was a choice between the sigma with 140hp or SuperSport R with Duratec and 180 (360 equivalent). I drove both back to back at Caterham. The sigma based car definitely feels lighter in the nose but the 360 doesn't feel a whole lot heavier to be fair. What you will notice without question is the extra power. It's not so much the additional HP that grabs you at first but more the increased torque that the Duratec has. Mated to the 5 speed gearbox it's a great match. 1st on mine is utterly pointless and I rarely use it but I suspect the new Mazda 5 speed might be better than the Ford box I have. I was worried I might regret not getting the 6 speed gearbox but I now realise that it was designed, primarily, to get the best out of revvy K series cars and is actually unnecessary with the 2.0 cars unless your intention is solely to do track work. 80 mph is well over 4K rpm in 5th with the 5 speed so I imagine the 6 speed is pretty unpleasant at motorway speeds. Are you planing to do much touring or weekends away?

You asked about upgrades. If you go for the 360, a simple Cam upgrade takes the car to 420 spec. This is around £2300 fitted by Caterham at the moment. If you spend £4600 you get the roller barrel throttle bodies as well which adds another 10hp. Doesn't sound like much but it's worth it for the extra throttle response and the induction noise.

So there's a clear upgrade path for the Duratec for when the inevitable upgraditis sets in. True you can upgrade the Sigma but I suspect it's going to cost you a heap more to do so.


coppice

8,562 posts

143 months

Saturday 27th August 2016
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The 6 speed is perfectly useable for all road work on a Duratec car - it's just that at motorway speeds you are revving higher than in any tintop . But you get used to it and it is just fab on twisty roads. 5 speed Ford box has useless ratios - ist is stupidly low and 5th stupidly high but you can get more sensible ratios as a mod. The Mazda box- I'd imagine sportier ratios than the Ford was?

Anorak fact which I came across whilst researching something else- 6 speed box mph/1000 rpm is the same as a Ferrari Dino - which surprised me. But short gearing was widespread back then - now everything is geared for inter galactic cruising.

bcr5784

7,102 posts

144 months

Saturday 27th August 2016
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coppice said:
The Mazda box- I'd imagine sportier ratios than the Ford was?

Yes first is 3.13 vs 3.65 second 1.88 vs 1.97 third 1.33 vs 1.37 and top .81 vs .82. Could be closer but a definite step in the right direction.

coppice

8,562 posts

143 months

Saturday 27th August 2016
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Interesting; with Ford 5 speed my old K 1,4SS did about 25 in 1st, nearly 70 is 2nd and high 90s in 3rd. 4th and 5th would have broken the sound barrier.

SidewaysSi

10,742 posts

233 months

Saturday 27th August 2016
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I have been driving Sevens for 15 years. Recently drove a 360R back to back with my 140bhp K Series Superlight.

I preferred my car as it seemed to be a better resolved road car. And the 360 didn't feel that much faster/more powerful TBH.

BertBert

18,953 posts

210 months

Saturday 27th August 2016
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downsman said:
If you plan to do any touring, the 5 speed box is much nicer as the overdrive top drops the revs considerably.
I always disagree with this comment that comes out. In my experience, the 5 speed box does not turn a 7 into anything like a tourer. If you are doing long distances you'll need protection against noise and probably buffeting. The difference between the 5 and 6 speed boxes in this respect makes no difference.

Whether the rev counter says 3,500, 4,4000 or 4,500 at cruising makes no difference, it's just a number.

So I say go with the box/engine combo that you prefer to drive in the 7 you are planning to buy.

YMMV

BertBert

18,953 posts

210 months

Saturday 27th August 2016
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Also to the OP, wait for the announcement of the ultimate 7 product before deciding!

bcr5784

7,102 posts

144 months

Saturday 27th August 2016
quotequote all
coppice said:
Interesting; with Ford 5 speed my old K 1,4SS did about 25 in 1st, nearly 70 is 2nd and high 90s in 3rd. 4th and 5th would have broken the sound barrier.
Trouble is the 6 speed is
1st: 2.69:1
2nd: 2.01:1
3rd: 1.59:1
4th: 1.32:1
5th: 1.13:1
6th 1.00:1

Which just too close to be sensible with anything other than a real screamer of an engine.. Probably a T9 with a full set of modded ratios is the best solution - but that's expensive too. Something like the 2.83/1.81/1.26/1/.82 with 5th as a cruising ratio from BGH (though they offer both closer and wider ratio options)

downsman

1,099 posts

155 months

Saturday 27th August 2016
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BertBert said:
I always disagree with this comment that comes out. In my experience, the 5 speed box does not turn a 7 into anything like a tourer. If you are doing long distances you'll need protection against noise and probably buffeting. The difference between the 5 and 6 speed boxes in this respect makes no difference.

Whether the rev counter says 3,500, 4,4000 or 4,500 at cruising makes no difference, it's just a number.

So I say go with the box/engine combo that you prefer to drive in the 7 you are planning to buy.

YMMV
We'll have to disagree on that then smile

Having driven from the South East to Scotland in a day in both my 5 speed Seven and in a 4 speed Lotus Elan I found cruising at well under 4000 rpm in the Seven far more relaxing than nearly 5000 in the Elan.

coppice

8,562 posts

143 months

Saturday 27th August 2016
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All I can say is that you get used to the 6speed; I have done 500 miles in a day before now without ill effect and it's only the overgearing of modern cars that make a 6 speed seem wrong geared. I did do a longish drive in a Sigma with 5 speed a couple of years ago and its motorway manners were exemplary - but we don't buy Sevens for that do we ?