Caterham R500 vs 620R
Discussion
Hi everyone,
I no this is probably considered swearing on this forum but I currently own a Westfield Megabusa (hayabusa bike engine) and am seriously considering selling it after a year of owning it (with several costly issues) and moving to a Caterham which raises a few questions. The Megabusa gets from 0-60 in around 3.2 or 3.4 seconds depending where u look and I'm looking for Caterham with at least the same or hopefully better performance. My concern with the bike engine is that it is designed to push a 260kg bike and not a 500kg car and although people say if they are kept standard they are bullet proof I know of a few people blowing standard engines beyond repair.
Anyway I'm looking at Caterhams with 2.0 duratec engines. The R500 states 0-60 in 2.88 secs and the 620R states 2.79 if that is accurate is seems crazy that adding a supercharger made such an insignificant different to the same engine? I love both the R500 and the 620R but I was concerned that 310bhp is too much and the car would be all over the place but if I went for the R500 I may regret not going for the 620R. I should add I do hillclimbs, sprints, track days and road use, I do want a car that is ridiculous, I love the shock and adrenaline of mental power and learning to tame a beast of a car with no driver aided assistance. I'm interested in people who have owned or driven either car for their points of view. Also if I did go for a used R500 it would have to have sequential change which is standard in the 620R. Any opinions in the quality difference between Westfield and Caterham would be interesting too.
Thanks in advance Mitch.
I no this is probably considered swearing on this forum but I currently own a Westfield Megabusa (hayabusa bike engine) and am seriously considering selling it after a year of owning it (with several costly issues) and moving to a Caterham which raises a few questions. The Megabusa gets from 0-60 in around 3.2 or 3.4 seconds depending where u look and I'm looking for Caterham with at least the same or hopefully better performance. My concern with the bike engine is that it is designed to push a 260kg bike and not a 500kg car and although people say if they are kept standard they are bullet proof I know of a few people blowing standard engines beyond repair.
Anyway I'm looking at Caterhams with 2.0 duratec engines. The R500 states 0-60 in 2.88 secs and the 620R states 2.79 if that is accurate is seems crazy that adding a supercharger made such an insignificant different to the same engine? I love both the R500 and the 620R but I was concerned that 310bhp is too much and the car would be all over the place but if I went for the R500 I may regret not going for the 620R. I should add I do hillclimbs, sprints, track days and road use, I do want a car that is ridiculous, I love the shock and adrenaline of mental power and learning to tame a beast of a car with no driver aided assistance. I'm interested in people who have owned or driven either car for their points of view. Also if I did go for a used R500 it would have to have sequential change which is standard in the 620R. Any opinions in the quality difference between Westfield and Caterham would be interesting too.
Thanks in advance Mitch.
Edited by Fodey87 on Sunday 18th September 12:57
Edited by Fodey87 on Sunday 18th September 13:02
Edited by Fodey87 on Sunday 18th September 13:04
more experienced people than I will be along soon, but I'd say three things:
- agree that having a viscerally exciting is a god thing, so going for power isn't a bad idea
- all the top end Caterhams are bonkers, and their handling is sublime - you'll notice the extra power in a straight line on the track, but it's not so clear cut on the road, and definitely not in the bends, where a well driven lower powered car will embarrass those with power and less talent - i.e. it may be that going for lower power and lessons is a much better idea
- drive them to see - it's the only way to tell what you want
Fodey87 said:
Hi everyone,
I no this is probably considered swearing on this forum but I currently own a Westfield Megabusa (hayabusa bike engine) and am seriously considering selling it after a year of owning it (with several costly issues) and moving to a Caterham which raises a few questions. The Megabusa gets from 0-60 in around 3.2 or 3.4 seconds depending where u look and I'm looking for Caterham with at least the same or hopefully better performance. My concern with the bike engine is that it is designed to push a 260kg bike and not a 500kg car and although people say if they are kept standard they are bullet proof I know of a few people blowing standard engines beyond repair.
Anyway I'm looking at Caterhams with 2.0 duratec engines. The R500 states 0-60 in 2.88 secs and the 620R states 2.79 if that is accurate is seems crazy that adding a supercharger made such an insignificant different to the same engine? I love both the R500 and the 620R but I was concerned that 310bhp is too much and the car would be all over the place but if I went for the R500 I may regret not going for the 620R. I should add I do hillclimbs, sprints, track days and road use, I do want a car that is ridiculous, I love the shock and adrenaline of mental power and learning to tame a beast of a car with no driver aided assistance. I'm interested in people who have owned or driven either car for their points of view. Also if I did go for a used R500 it would have to have sequential change which is standard in the 620R. Any opinions in the quality difference between Westfield and Caterham would be interesting too.
Thanks in advance Mitch.
I think you're reading too much into the 0-60 and the actual horsepower - both cars have silly amounts of power, but as those who've owned both will no doubt come along to tell you, the way the power is delivered is very different.I no this is probably considered swearing on this forum but I currently own a Westfield Megabusa (hayabusa bike engine) and am seriously considering selling it after a year of owning it (with several costly issues) and moving to a Caterham which raises a few questions. The Megabusa gets from 0-60 in around 3.2 or 3.4 seconds depending where u look and I'm looking for Caterham with at least the same or hopefully better performance. My concern with the bike engine is that it is designed to push a 260kg bike and not a 500kg car and although people say if they are kept standard they are bullet proof I know of a few people blowing standard engines beyond repair.
Anyway I'm looking at Caterhams with 2.0 duratec engines. The R500 states 0-60 in 2.88 secs and the 620R states 2.79 if that is accurate is seems crazy that adding a supercharger made such an insignificant different to the same engine? I love both the R500 and the 620R but I was concerned that 310bhp is too much and the car would be all over the place but if I went for the R500 I may regret not going for the 620R. I should add I do hillclimbs, sprints, track days and road use, I do want a car that is ridiculous, I love the shock and adrenaline of mental power and learning to tame a beast of a car with no driver aided assistance. I'm interested in people who have owned or driven either car for their points of view. Also if I did go for a used R500 it would have to have sequential change which is standard in the 620R. Any opinions in the quality difference between Westfield and Caterham would be interesting too.
Thanks in advance Mitch.
With regards to the 0-60 though, you're more limited with traction than anything else at that sort of time. I remember reading that the R500 time was set with two people in the car to provide the ballast to get the power down too. Given the extra torque of the 620r, it would probably spin it's wheels a bit easier than the R500 at the lower ends of the rev range.
Also remember, that when you're talking about sub 3 seconds to 60, any time taken off is impressive since there really isn't much room for improvement (it's not like taking a second of a 6 second 0-60 for example!)
Beyond a certain point 0-60 times are dictated entirely by the traction available and not the power. But you knew that right? The 620R has 48 bhp and 42 lbft more than the R500 so I wouldn't exactly say the addition of a supercharger is insignificant.
Coming from a BEC its the midrange torque that you'll notice most from the duratec engine. So dont just look at max BHP when comparing with what you have now.
Choosing between the R500 and 620R is like choosing between expensive wine and very expensive wine. Only a very select few will really appreciate the difference, and its only you that can decide how crazy you want to go.
Coming from a BEC its the midrange torque that you'll notice most from the duratec engine. So dont just look at max BHP when comparing with what you have now.
Choosing between the R500 and 620R is like choosing between expensive wine and very expensive wine. Only a very select few will really appreciate the difference, and its only you that can decide how crazy you want to go.
I run a superight R with a Honda K20 engine.Normally aspirated, Output 310bhp 205 ftlb torque.
I drive it on the road and track, it runs circles round pretty much everything on road and track. The balance and handling is superb. So my advice is more power the better, then u decide how much u need at any given time with ur right foot.
Better to have and not need, than to need and not have.
It's for sale if ur interested
I drive it on the road and track, it runs circles round pretty much everything on road and track. The balance and handling is superb. So my advice is more power the better, then u decide how much u need at any given time with ur right foot.
Better to have and not need, than to need and not have.
It's for sale if ur interested
Thanks for the advise guys. I appreciate the comments. I know it must seem like I am only focused on the 0-60 and bhp times but other than getting info from owners or people who have driven the cars I'm struggling to find a way to compare the R500 with the 620R. You make a good point when you says that knocking 1/10th of a sec off a 0-60 is more impressive than it seems since there isn't much room for improvement. When looking for comparisons online I haven't actually found a head to head comparison which you often see when a particular model is superseded. The top gear laps aren't worth comparing as the R500 went out on a DRY track and produced a very impressive time of 1min17.9secs where as the 620R did a 1min22.3secs on a WET track. You really get no useful info from this as one was a dry lap and the other was wet.......and we all know what 7's are like in the wet.
I understand what you're saying about traction and that is always a concern with hillclimbing especially now the MSA have changed the tyre regs. Some of the competitors have spent silly amounts of money on big power in 7 based cars and waste a lot of time spinning the wheels and loosing out to lesser powered cars as they can't put the power down. There is a video on YouTube where autocar tests the 620R and when he's going around corners you can hear him letting off the throttle constantly and drifting. Don't get me wrong this looks like a lot of fun and I would love to do that but is so much power in the 620R a waste if u cannot use it the majority of the time? I read somewhere that in a straight line it'll spin the wheels still in 3rd gear, I don't get wheel spin in the lighter Megabusa in 2nd or any gear other than first and am assuming I'm making the most out of the power available. If the two Caterhans where the same price I wouldn't be concerned I just wanted more insight on if the extra £20,000ish a 620R would cost over a R500 would be justifiable?
In reality I would probably come away from hillclimbing and sprinting and do more track days (with track day insurance) if I choose a 620R as I'd be worried about damaging it and I think I'd be less concerned about general wear and tear with a older R500, perhaps the 620R is too expensive to really push on the limit just incase something happened. If you think like that you may as well save £20k and have the R500 and probably have more fun?
Interested for any info in the reliability of the 2.0 duratec engines also please.
Thanks Mitch.
I understand what you're saying about traction and that is always a concern with hillclimbing especially now the MSA have changed the tyre regs. Some of the competitors have spent silly amounts of money on big power in 7 based cars and waste a lot of time spinning the wheels and loosing out to lesser powered cars as they can't put the power down. There is a video on YouTube where autocar tests the 620R and when he's going around corners you can hear him letting off the throttle constantly and drifting. Don't get me wrong this looks like a lot of fun and I would love to do that but is so much power in the 620R a waste if u cannot use it the majority of the time? I read somewhere that in a straight line it'll spin the wheels still in 3rd gear, I don't get wheel spin in the lighter Megabusa in 2nd or any gear other than first and am assuming I'm making the most out of the power available. If the two Caterhans where the same price I wouldn't be concerned I just wanted more insight on if the extra £20,000ish a 620R would cost over a R500 would be justifiable?
In reality I would probably come away from hillclimbing and sprinting and do more track days (with track day insurance) if I choose a 620R as I'd be worried about damaging it and I think I'd be less concerned about general wear and tear with a older R500, perhaps the 620R is too expensive to really push on the limit just incase something happened. If you think like that you may as well save £20k and have the R500 and probably have more fun?
Interested for any info in the reliability of the 2.0 duratec engines also please.
Thanks Mitch.
One important difference is the sequential gearbox. Apparently the 620R's is much more civilised on the road.
Both have more power than you need, more torque than you would be used to, but I am guessing that the 620's advantage will be mainly at higher speeds, once beyond traction limitations, so more relevant to a lap of Silverstone than to a hill climb
Both have more power than you need, more torque than you would be used to, but I am guessing that the 620's advantage will be mainly at higher speeds, once beyond traction limitations, so more relevant to a lap of Silverstone than to a hill climb
Sadly did not have the chance to drive them but had a long conversation with the guy at Caterham
Not sure those would right for me as I would probably kill myself pretty soon but if you think you can really exploit their capabilities then you should try to test them
The experience with the R500 and the 620R is very different because the way power is delivered, the 620 is explosive from low whilst the R500 is more tractable but it has to be revved to get to the maximum
Guess the Megabusa experience is more similar to the R500
Not sure those would right for me as I would probably kill myself pretty soon but if you think you can really exploit their capabilities then you should try to test them
The experience with the R500 and the 620R is very different because the way power is delivered, the 620 is explosive from low whilst the R500 is more tractable but it has to be revved to get to the maximum
Guess the Megabusa experience is more similar to the R500
Fodey87 said:
Hi sundance I'd be interested to see some pics and full spec of your car.
Cheers Mitch.
Hi MitchCheers Mitch.
There is a thread on here with all the pics and spec and dynamic graphs
I have just got it back after refresh and now added Co's worth pistons and a lighter crank it's an incredible car and bullet proof engine.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=149...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=156...
Edited by sundance002 on Sunday 18th September 22:24
Hi I've got much the same as Craig, K20 Honda used have a Caterham 6 speed now Sadev with Geartronics, just an unbeatable combo, 100% reliability with an amazing performance and unbeatable sound 9000 RPM, in standard form 220BHP and 100K miles.
But like most high powered 7's they bite very hard when they do, 180FT LBs and cold 8" CR500;s needs a lot of skill and respect.
But like most high powered 7's they bite very hard when they do, 180FT LBs and cold 8" CR500;s needs a lot of skill and respect.
I dont think Craig would ever sell it, to take a 2ltr N/A to 300BHP and 205 FT lbs costs mega money thats why folks go to 2.3 2.4 2.5 etc as it's a bit cheaper, I did my own engine which made more than supercharged K20's on TDI lakesides Rototest hub dyno. Really does depend upon what you fancy, I've never liked the sound of the Duratecs or the K Rovers, so on the sound alone I'm sold on the Honda.
Fodey87 said:
Thanks for the advise guys. I appreciate the comments. I know it must seem like I am only focused on the 0-60 and bhp times but other than getting info from owners or people who have driven the cars I'm struggling to find a way to compare the R500 with the 620R. You make a good point when you says that knocking 1/10th of a sec off a 0-60 is more impressive than it seems since there isn't much room for improvement. When looking for comparisons online I haven't actually found a head to head comparison which you often see when a particular model is superseded. The top gear laps aren't worth comparing as the R500 went out on a DRY track and produced a very impressive time of 1min17.9secs where as the 620R did a 1min22.3secs on a WET track. You really get no useful info from this as one was a dry lap and the other was wet.......and we all know what 7's are like in the wet.
I understand what you're saying about traction and that is always a concern with hillclimbing especially now the MSA have changed the tyre regs. Some of the competitors have spent silly amounts of money on big power in 7 based cars and waste a lot of time spinning the wheels and loosing out to lesser powered cars as they can't put the power down. There is a video on YouTube where autocar tests the 620R and when he's going around corners you can hear him letting off the throttle constantly and drifting. Don't get me wrong this looks like a lot of fun and I would love to do that but is so much power in the 620R a waste if u cannot use it the majority of the time? I read somewhere that in a straight line it'll spin the wheels still in 3rd gear, I don't get wheel spin in the lighter Megabusa in 2nd or any gear other than first and am assuming I'm making the most out of the power available. If the two Caterhans where the same price I wouldn't be concerned I just wanted more insight on if the extra £20,000ish a 620R would cost over a R500 would be justifiable?
In reality I would probably come away from hillclimbing and sprinting and do more track days (with track day insurance) if I choose a 620R as I'd be worried about damaging it and I think I'd be less concerned about general wear and tear with a older R500, perhaps the 620R is too expensive to really push on the limit just incase something happened. If you think like that you may as well save £20k and have the R500 and probably have more fun?
Interested for any info in the reliability of the 2.0 duratec engines also please.
Thanks Mitch.
If you go for an engine which makes the same top end, but delivers its torque higher up the rev range, you have a lot more throttle travel to play with...I understand what you're saying about traction and that is always a concern with hillclimbing especially now the MSA have changed the tyre regs. Some of the competitors have spent silly amounts of money on big power in 7 based cars and waste a lot of time spinning the wheels and loosing out to lesser powered cars as they can't put the power down. There is a video on YouTube where autocar tests the 620R and when he's going around corners you can hear him letting off the throttle constantly and drifting. Don't get me wrong this looks like a lot of fun and I would love to do that but is so much power in the 620R a waste if u cannot use it the majority of the time? I read somewhere that in a straight line it'll spin the wheels still in 3rd gear, I don't get wheel spin in the lighter Megabusa in 2nd or any gear other than first and am assuming I'm making the most out of the power available. If the two Caterhans where the same price I wouldn't be concerned I just wanted more insight on if the extra £20,000ish a 620R would cost over a R500 would be justifiable?
In reality I would probably come away from hillclimbing and sprinting and do more track days (with track day insurance) if I choose a 620R as I'd be worried about damaging it and I think I'd be less concerned about general wear and tear with a older R500, perhaps the 620R is too expensive to really push on the limit just incase something happened. If you think like that you may as well save £20k and have the R500 and probably have more fun?
Interested for any info in the reliability of the 2.0 duratec engines also please.
Thanks Mitch.
IMO the question really comes down to do you want a track car or a road and track car?
I have a R500D manual and love it, its phenomenally fast, very reliable and despite what people say is great both on track and country drives. A friend of mine (Mario) similarly owns a 620R and I have been lucky enough to drive it on road and passenger in it at Donnington. The difference in performance is monumental and it delivers its power in a completely different fashion. The performance gains from the R400 to R500 can only really be felt at the top end (extra 2000rpm) where it surges in an extremely exhilarating fashion. The 602's torque is delivered from the beginning and is whilst the acceleration is brutal it is also flat with no "sweet spot" which you find in a normally aspirated engine. 0-60 times are very similarly but I felt you really feel the difference in acceleration at the top end, the R500 starts to back off around 100 and whereas the 620R's extra bmp seems to push the Caterhams brick like aerodynamics through to around 120 before the acceleration drops away. The end result of this to me was that the 620R was too much of a bit of a handful for the road and the naturally aspirated cars allow you to push harder on the road. However, on track the 620 is untouchable. With my mixed driving I am (for now) very happy with my R500, but when I finally get around to buying the Porsche as the daily driver the R500 my just get upgraded for a 620 track only toy.
Last point is the sequential gearbox, the R500's is just too loud & you really cannot drive it without hearing protection. So if this is a must for you I would get the 620, however the 6 speed manual is incredible satisfying both on track and road so personally wouldn’t rule it out on that alone ;-)
Amris said:
IMO the question really comes down to do you want a track car or a road and track car?
I have a R500D manual and love it, its phenomenally fast, very reliable and despite what people say is great both on track and country drives. A friend of mine (Mario) similarly owns a 620R and I have been lucky enough to drive it on road and passenger in it at Donnington. The difference in performance is monumental and it delivers its power in a completely different fashion. The performance gains from the R400 to R500 can only really be felt at the top end (extra 2000rpm) where it surges in an extremely exhilarating fashion. The 602's torque is delivered from the beginning and is whilst the acceleration is brutal it is also flat with no "sweet spot" which you find in a normally aspirated engine. 0-60 times are very similarly but I felt you really feel the difference in acceleration at the top end, the R500 starts to back off around 100 and whereas the 620R's extra bmp seems to push the Caterhams brick like aerodynamics through to around 120 before the acceleration drops away. The end result of this to me was that the 620R was too much of a bit of a handful for the road and the naturally aspirated cars allow you to push harder on the road. However, on track the 620 is untouchable. With my mixed driving I am (for now) very happy with my R500, but when I finally get around to buying the Porsche as the daily driver the R500 my just get upgraded for a 620 track only toy.
Last point is the sequential gearbox, the R500's is just too loud & you really cannot drive it without hearing protection. So if this is a must for you I would get the 620, however the 6 speed manual is incredible satisfying both on track and road so personally wouldn’t rule it out on that alone ;-)
I agree the power delivery is totally different on a 500 and 620R. The sequential box is great for track but a real pain on the road and very noisy you won't hear your passenger, which for some thats a strong buying point.I have driven pretty much all the R spec caterhams on track and road, For me I would go for nothing less than a 500.I have a R500D manual and love it, its phenomenally fast, very reliable and despite what people say is great both on track and country drives. A friend of mine (Mario) similarly owns a 620R and I have been lucky enough to drive it on road and passenger in it at Donnington. The difference in performance is monumental and it delivers its power in a completely different fashion. The performance gains from the R400 to R500 can only really be felt at the top end (extra 2000rpm) where it surges in an extremely exhilarating fashion. The 602's torque is delivered from the beginning and is whilst the acceleration is brutal it is also flat with no "sweet spot" which you find in a normally aspirated engine. 0-60 times are very similarly but I felt you really feel the difference in acceleration at the top end, the R500 starts to back off around 100 and whereas the 620R's extra bmp seems to push the Caterhams brick like aerodynamics through to around 120 before the acceleration drops away. The end result of this to me was that the 620R was too much of a bit of a handful for the road and the naturally aspirated cars allow you to push harder on the road. However, on track the 620 is untouchable. With my mixed driving I am (for now) very happy with my R500, but when I finally get around to buying the Porsche as the daily driver the R500 my just get upgraded for a 620 track only toy.
Last point is the sequential gearbox, the R500's is just too loud & you really cannot drive it without hearing protection. So if this is a must for you I would get the 620, however the 6 speed manual is incredible satisfying both on track and road so personally wouldn’t rule it out on that alone ;-)
Regarding 6 speak box its perfect for track and road. Yes the sequential box is faster on track, But then my last time out I was half a second faster than the fastest guy out there with a sequential and a second faster than the others.
Personally the 620 just wasn't smooth enough for me. The R500 is much more user friendly and still has enough grunt to drive round the outside of most things.
The Honda K20 is a completely different animal, it's faster than the 620 it's lighter, and the power is delivered smoothly through every gear and pulls relentlessly to 9k rpm and 160mph.
It cost the same money as a 620 to build, but the running costs and reliability scores well above the 500 and 620.
And looking at mine you would think it a normal road car.
Here's the result of the first time attack I did since the refresh.
The first is morning second was in the afternoon.
At the finish
Fodey87 said:
Great insight guys very helpful thanks! Perhaps I'm getting too caught up with the sequential change I've just become quite attached to it in the Megabusa.
Is your car a registered road legal car in the UK Craig? How much are you looking for, for it?
Yes the car is fully road legal and A regestered UK car. I spend a lot of time in Spain, and there is very good reason for that, the roads are empty and the weather is perfect.it cones out on a lorry in The summer and goes back to UK for the winter where it is not used again to the following year. It's looked after by Bespoke performance in Hertfordshire who look after all my cars. She has a life F88 ecu managing the car, so I can take all the data and email it to Terry Bourne who built the engine, he can then check all the data and email me a new map Is your car a registered road legal car in the UK Craig? How much are you looking for, for it?
Which I simply press enter and the car is mapped. It has 4 installed maps with a dial to change from road, fast road, wet road, And race.
Let me know ur email And I will send u all the details and spec.
The car will be back in UK in 4wks time until June next year so u are more than welcome to take a look and drive.
I'm looking for around 45k for the car, I have spent that on the engine and management system alone.
The car originally was factory built and is number build number 4 on the Caterham register.
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