Aircon in a Seven; from a commercial perspective, why not?
Discussion
I think the bottom line is, even if Caterham did add it, it probably wouldn't work very well in the car and owners would end up complaining as it doesn't work as well as the air con in their 6 series BMW. I'd imagine it's not worth the hassle.
I mean, the heater is rubbish once you're doing over 40mph (though it's quite toasty under that!).
I mean, the heater is rubbish once you're doing over 40mph (though it's quite toasty under that!).
PhilAsia said:
Very good. How many years and how many potential 7 buyers have you spoken to in Asia?
I've spoken to exactly zero potential buyers anywhere in the world! I fully understand that in many climates, air-con is an absolute necessity. However I also believe that in such climates a Caterham isn't going to sell particularly well regardless of whether it it has air-con or not. My reasoning for this is as others have said.. the installation wont be particularly powerful and it'll hardly work well enough to be effective in the UK, let alone be up to the job to work in a climate where air-con is an absolute dealbreaker.I'm not saying there aren't potential buyers in these markets. Just that they dont represent a big enough ongoing revenue stream to cover the costs.
Edited by mharris on Tuesday 6th February 09:34
I believe Caterham can't be arsed tbh. Their order book is full, so why make extra work.
As to ac in a 7? Of course it would be popular in tropical countries.
Even with all my windows open, in my volumous sti estate, my ac is still refreshingly cool, like a breeze on a beach.
A 7 with a heater is cosy in the most inclement weather. Certainly a lot more pleasant than without. And the hardcore "no heater" brigade are equally bogged down as the amount of warm clothing required is heavier than a heater installation!
As to ac in a 7? Of course it would be popular in tropical countries.
Even with all my windows open, in my volumous sti estate, my ac is still refreshingly cool, like a breeze on a beach.
A 7 with a heater is cosy in the most inclement weather. Certainly a lot more pleasant than without. And the hardcore "no heater" brigade are equally bogged down as the amount of warm clothing required is heavier than a heater installation!
Phil, you seen very angry about this! If a company's products sell well they are very sensible to develop the product where they get the best returns. It's got nothing to do with whether they can be arsed or not as if they are somehow lazy in not adding the feature that you want.
If it's that big a deal, so important to you and going to be so popular, why don't you engineer an after market add on, sell loads and loads of them in Asia and get very rich?
Bert
If it's that big a deal, so important to you and going to be so popular, why don't you engineer an after market add on, sell loads and loads of them in Asia and get very rich?
Bert
Just a quick one. Although I have other gripes about the Caterham 7 and having briefly owned a few, some simple air con would be very welcome. They do get unbearably hot especially the later cars with exhaust on the drivers side. Just a simple flap in the footwell and a vent on the dash blowing some cold air would be good. Even when the car is moving there is very little fresh air flowing through to the foot wells. In addition when the heater is turned off heat is still transmitted to the cabin.
When I had my 7's I did try to insulate the engine bay from the inside, ( engine side) especially the foot well area with reflective mastic type sheeting which is designed for the purpose. However in all honesty it did not make a great deal of difference. My earlier Sevens with twin cam engines and exhaust on the passenger side did not seem to transmit as much heat to the cabin. The Duratec car was the worst; apparently wrapping the exhaust manifold and collector branches does help.
I know most of people in Malaysia with 7's and 35c temp, (Fernandez is from Malaysia and knows exactly what he needs to do if he really wanted to develop the market) none of them have ever asked for Air Con, as that's not the market, they are track cars, and most people i know with a 7 have high end German saloon for the commute.
Fitting air con would be easy there are loads of after market kits around, I have one in my Elan, the only real issue on a 7 would be where to mount the condenser, as the nose if full of Rad and Oil coolers.
I have a Z3 and as i enjoy that as a Sunday car I never have the roof up once I'm out of town, and I can tell you there is no point in air con once the roof is down, I pull off the motor way and at first traffic lights put the hood up and the air con on.If you really wanted to market a 7 in the tropics you would need some sort of removable hood, and the people in the market would want it to be electric.
I know that Caterham have looked at the Malaysian market, (they have a named race series) but just don't see it as being big enough to be worth changing anything, or investing in trying to get type approval, all the road cars ( I can think of 3) are UK imports brought in by the Owners with various dispensations for low volume private imports.
Another serious issue with 7's in the tropics is the rain, I had mine on the road for a few weeks when it first came in, un-driveable in the rain, visibility and lack of weight, they are more impractical than bikes in that regard, as most of the motor ways have facilities under the bridges for bikers when it rains.
Fitting air con would be easy there are loads of after market kits around, I have one in my Elan, the only real issue on a 7 would be where to mount the condenser, as the nose if full of Rad and Oil coolers.
I have a Z3 and as i enjoy that as a Sunday car I never have the roof up once I'm out of town, and I can tell you there is no point in air con once the roof is down, I pull off the motor way and at first traffic lights put the hood up and the air con on.If you really wanted to market a 7 in the tropics you would need some sort of removable hood, and the people in the market would want it to be electric.
I know that Caterham have looked at the Malaysian market, (they have a named race series) but just don't see it as being big enough to be worth changing anything, or investing in trying to get type approval, all the road cars ( I can think of 3) are UK imports brought in by the Owners with various dispensations for low volume private imports.
Another serious issue with 7's in the tropics is the rain, I had mine on the road for a few weeks when it first came in, un-driveable in the rain, visibility and lack of weight, they are more impractical than bikes in that regard, as most of the motor ways have facilities under the bridges for bikers when it rains.
BertBert said:
Phil, you seen very angry about this! If a company's products sell well they are very sensible to develop the product where they get the best returns. It's got nothing to do with whether they can be arsed or not as if they are somehow lazy in not adding the feature that you want.
If it's that big a deal, so important to you and going to be so popular, why don't you engineer an after market add on, sell loads and loads of them in Asia and get very rich?
Bert
Angry? You obviously don't know me very wel....well, actually you don't know me.If it's that big a deal, so important to you and going to be so popular, why don't you engineer an after market add on, sell loads and loads of them in Asia and get very rich?
Bert
If there was an irritation, then it would be directed towards the "I'm the hardest man in a 7 as I've got more flies in my teeth than you" brigade. Many different people drive a caterham and some have even given up using a stick to check the fuel.
Caterham can, and do, what they want. And I am fine with that.
Fair point mine came with a heater which I have only used late at night but I think AC will draw power directly from the engine, quick google produces these figures.
Typically, for an average sized passenger car:
Pull down = 6 to 7 kW of cooling power (~3kW of input mech power)
Maintain = 1.5 to 3 kW of cooling power (~1kW average mech input power)
not including the penalty for weight of the components
so without a sealed cabin I would suggest the unit will be running somewhere between pull down and the maintain figure. if I guess at the power of my k series it might be 107kw.
Typically, for an average sized passenger car:
Pull down = 6 to 7 kW of cooling power (~3kW of input mech power)
Maintain = 1.5 to 3 kW of cooling power (~1kW average mech input power)
not including the penalty for weight of the components
so without a sealed cabin I would suggest the unit will be running somewhere between pull down and the maintain figure. if I guess at the power of my k series it might be 107kw.
Edited by freebee on Monday 12th February 16:24
For what it’s worth, a fair few Morgans (which arguably share some of a Seven’s characteristics) seem to be fitted with air conditioning. As far as I can tell, it’s an option for about £2k:
http://www.rtcc.co.uk/morgan-roadster-car-builder
Whilst many Sevens are used for track work etc., the existence of the S Pack is evidence that Caterham believes many are predominantly/entirely for road use. To my mind, an a/c option for these cars would appeal to - and increase sales to - some (not all!) potential buyers in hot/humid climates.
It seems that Morgan agree that it’s worth doing, so I still think there’s an arguement for Caterham to do so as well.
http://www.rtcc.co.uk/morgan-roadster-car-builder
Whilst many Sevens are used for track work etc., the existence of the S Pack is evidence that Caterham believes many are predominantly/entirely for road use. To my mind, an a/c option for these cars would appeal to - and increase sales to - some (not all!) potential buyers in hot/humid climates.
It seems that Morgan agree that it’s worth doing, so I still think there’s an arguement for Caterham to do so as well.
Berw said:
I
Another serious issue with 7's in the tropics is the rain, I had mine on the road for a few weeks when it first came in, un-driveable in the rain, visibility and lack of weight, they are more impractical than bikes in that regard, as most of the motor ways have facilities under the bridges for bikers when it rains.
Agree - and it doesn't need to be tropical rain either .I think many people who have never driven Sevens would not believe how dreadful they can be in the wrong conditions - bumpy ,wet - and how life affirmingly sublime they can be in the right conditions. In the former scenario they can struggle to keep up with a laden Citroen Picasso but in the latter they can humiliate anything from a superbike to a big power Porsche etc - mine did both , and I'm no driving god... Another serious issue with 7's in the tropics is the rain, I had mine on the road for a few weeks when it first came in, un-driveable in the rain, visibility and lack of weight, they are more impractical than bikes in that regard, as most of the motor ways have facilities under the bridges for bikers when it rains.
In terms of Asia, adding air con certainly was (is) on the agenda officially, albeit in connection with a new model:
“The company needs to appeal to new customers in new markets, and Ali has ‘no doubt’ that Caterham can sell 2500 units of the new car each year, split between the three road variants and the racing version.
The USA isn’t currently in Caterham’s road car plans (the SP/300R sports prototype should have a one-make race series there in 2013) so the new model won’t be federalised. But the Far East is high on Caterham’s agenda, helped by Caterham owner Fernandes’ business connections. Ali says that means new customer requirements: ‘We will offer doors, windows, and you can tick a box for air-con. Will air-con come as standard? No, but if we’re going to sell in the Far East, and India, and other emerging markets, no one’s going to buy a Seven, because apart from fact you might be too scared to drive it on the road, you’ll just die of heat exhaustion.“
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/spy-shots/caterham/ca...
“The company needs to appeal to new customers in new markets, and Ali has ‘no doubt’ that Caterham can sell 2500 units of the new car each year, split between the three road variants and the racing version.
The USA isn’t currently in Caterham’s road car plans (the SP/300R sports prototype should have a one-make race series there in 2013) so the new model won’t be federalised. But the Far East is high on Caterham’s agenda, helped by Caterham owner Fernandes’ business connections. Ali says that means new customer requirements: ‘We will offer doors, windows, and you can tick a box for air-con. Will air-con come as standard? No, but if we’re going to sell in the Far East, and India, and other emerging markets, no one’s going to buy a Seven, because apart from fact you might be too scared to drive it on the road, you’ll just die of heat exhaustion.“
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/spy-shots/caterham/ca...
Mmmmm, that article was in 2012 from a note deposed MD. Of what relevance is it now?
chemistry said:
In terms of Asia, adding air con certainly was (is) on the agenda officially, albeit in connection with a new model:
“The company needs to appeal to new customers in new markets, and Ali has ‘no doubt’ that Caterham can sell 2500 units of the new car each year, split between the three road variants and the racing version.
The USA isn’t currently in Caterham’s road car plans (the SP/300R sports prototype should have a one-make race series there in 2013) so the new model won’t be federalised. But the Far East is high on Caterham’s agenda, helped by Caterham owner Fernandes’ business connections. Ali says that means new customer requirements: ‘We will offer doors, windows, and you can tick a box for air-con. Will air-con come as standard? No, but if we’re going to sell in the Far East, and India, and other emerging markets, no one’s going to buy a Seven, because apart from fact you might be too scared to drive it on the road, you’ll just die of heat exhaustion.“
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/spy-shots/caterham/ca...
“The company needs to appeal to new customers in new markets, and Ali has ‘no doubt’ that Caterham can sell 2500 units of the new car each year, split between the three road variants and the racing version.
The USA isn’t currently in Caterham’s road car plans (the SP/300R sports prototype should have a one-make race series there in 2013) so the new model won’t be federalised. But the Far East is high on Caterham’s agenda, helped by Caterham owner Fernandes’ business connections. Ali says that means new customer requirements: ‘We will offer doors, windows, and you can tick a box for air-con. Will air-con come as standard? No, but if we’re going to sell in the Far East, and India, and other emerging markets, no one’s going to buy a Seven, because apart from fact you might be too scared to drive it on the road, you’ll just die of heat exhaustion.“
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/spy-shots/caterham/ca...
;)Gassing Station | Caterham | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff