CATERHAM V'S WESTFIELD
Discussion
Barry Ashcroft said:
I heavily reserched and tried both makes when I decided to get involved with the lotus seven style of car and having now built two westfields costing well over 50k+ .All cars of both makes are as cheap and nasty or as expensive and immaculate as you want them to be and as for residualls go and pay over the top for a real 7 but check the chassis for rust first.
Must add that not all caterham owners are up themselves as I spent a month with 50+ this year in the states and on a whole are really nice people.
Barry
>> Edited by Barry Ashcroft on Friday 2nd December 07:33
Barry, should we confess the real reason why we both went West and not into Catering? i.e. the fact that Caterham are yet to produce one in Brick Shit-House size.
"Best" depends upon the set of criteria you use. We (WSCC) have met up with RHOC at many shows and I am sure to their criteria the RH is the optimum choice. Our hobby is about having fun in this gloomy old place. In my experience RHOC always seem to be having fun, so why does this debate go on and on.
For my part, there wasn't much to choose from an enjoyment and satisfaction perspective between a number of different makes and styles. My first decision was to build a kit-car, not necessarily a sevenesque model. What swayed it in the end was my personal experience and comfort factor with Westfield Sports cars Ltd, relative to my skills, knowledge and driving needs.
For those that take the "can't afford" snobbish approach to this argument, as Barry said, you can spend as much as you want to enhance specifications on any marque. One should not confuse "can't afford" with the more likely "this is what I am prepared to spend on a toy" scenario.
You can spend as much as you like on your kit-car, but it won't go as fast as my speed-boat on water!
>> Edited by Shrubbery Bloke on Friday 2nd December 21:26
Our Team collectively prefer the Caterham, however we have an MK INDY. Why did we make that decision? Purely down to disposable finances... if you have a look at our last video ( http://hellfire.locostsites.co.uk/video.htm ) the friend of our's can be seen passing quite a few Caterhams and other's. It's just a personal choice - nothing else.
>> Edited by Hellfire on Friday 2nd December 22:51
>> Edited by Hellfire on Friday 2nd December 22:51
Steve B - I could ask Des and Pete East this question - but are you American yourself? Your fondness of American engines suggests that you are...why on earth would Caterham want to shoehorn a V8 into their cars? I've watched V8 engined Caterfield type cars hillclimb extensively and they are awful - axle tramp, wheelspin, by the time they've put the power down they've lost a handful of seconds to the nimbler engined versions of these cars - seconds that they never catch up.
The point here is that for me, Caterfields should be all about nimbleness and handling, not dragster power. A case in point - on the L7Club Swiss trip this year, I spotted what I thought were a bunch of bandana wearing biker types at Fredy Kumschick's garage. They turned out to be Germans and all had turbocharged or otherwise tuned 7s boasting enormous power outputs. When we got to the passes, these things were lost in the dust of the smaller engined cars.
Des and Peter tell me that there was one particular 7 that was built in the US and that they ran with for some time - I can't recall its name, but it did look nice.
Would I spend £50k on a 7?..don't be silly!
The point here is that for me, Caterfields should be all about nimbleness and handling, not dragster power. A case in point - on the L7Club Swiss trip this year, I spotted what I thought were a bunch of bandana wearing biker types at Fredy Kumschick's garage. They turned out to be Germans and all had turbocharged or otherwise tuned 7s boasting enormous power outputs. When we got to the passes, these things were lost in the dust of the smaller engined cars.
Des and Peter tell me that there was one particular 7 that was built in the US and that they ran with for some time - I can't recall its name, but it did look nice.
Would I spend £50k on a 7?..don't be silly!
hi Rubystone, no I am born Texan (but gone from there for 10+ years, now a permanent UK resident), a discrenable and important distinction. For many years i have had quite high BHP cars, TVR Cerbera, M5 (w/ German chip mods), M-Coupe, and now the SV-VHPD.
I am not for a second interested in the mark, if i were i'd probably have something else. I demonstrated running the USA2005 event that I love all types of Se7ens, and that's the point (circling back to the original question) here.
FWIW, I had a peek onto WSCC the other night, and much tittering is going on
I think that the Rover K has had its day, and I keep debating going Duratech, as many Westies have, or Rover V-8.
I think you can ask any number of folks that went with us, I don't hang around at all, and having done a number of European Rallyes (which my wife and I have won in our SV) I may be in the minority of Se7ens owners who want fastest to a speed, rather than top speed. If I wanted top speed, I certainly wouldn't have an aerodynamic brick which is what a Se7en is (w/ or w/o a windscreen).
So back to the question, Westie vs. Cat: my recommendation is (still IS) pick the one that pleases your eye, chequebook, and tastes most. Simple as.......
I am not for a second interested in the mark, if i were i'd probably have something else. I demonstrated running the USA2005 event that I love all types of Se7ens, and that's the point (circling back to the original question) here.
FWIW, I had a peek onto WSCC the other night, and much tittering is going on
I think that the Rover K has had its day, and I keep debating going Duratech, as many Westies have, or Rover V-8. I think you can ask any number of folks that went with us, I don't hang around at all, and having done a number of European Rallyes (which my wife and I have won in our SV) I may be in the minority of Se7ens owners who want fastest to a speed, rather than top speed. If I wanted top speed, I certainly wouldn't have an aerodynamic brick which is what a Se7en is (w/ or w/o a windscreen).
So back to the question, Westie vs. Cat: my recommendation is (still IS) pick the one that pleases your eye, chequebook, and tastes most. Simple as.......
Ive driven quite a few Cats- all K power but only 1 Westie, & they really were chalk & cheese in comparison.
Westie was a Zetec SEiW & it just felt so leden & inert compared to the various Cats, felt much more like a 'normal' car with no roof, than the lithe almost telepathic steering & handling offered by the 7s.
Now it could have course have all been down to the suspension type & set up chosen by that particular Westies old boy owner- think he was more sunny day road driver than trackdays type of fella, so that may be a major factor in how he chose he set up, tho ive driven stock 1.4k & 1.6k roadsports & they are not exactly track orientated either in the manner of an SL or SLR say.
I can't offer any oprinion on other westies or other kits as altho ive had the opertunity to drive 'em I literally just couldnt fit in them to do so! (Westie x flow & Sylva stryker x flow) which is indeed a bugger, esp when something like this type of thing teases me so- www.pistonheads.com/sales/54032.htm
also I cant speak for x flow or 2.0VX Cats as ive not (yet) driven those either, tho I do hope the 2.0vx does have a degree of that lithe-ness as on paper it is such the 'right' 7 for me- well when i can actually afford one that is
Westie was a Zetec SEiW & it just felt so leden & inert compared to the various Cats, felt much more like a 'normal' car with no roof, than the lithe almost telepathic steering & handling offered by the 7s.
Now it could have course have all been down to the suspension type & set up chosen by that particular Westies old boy owner- think he was more sunny day road driver than trackdays type of fella, so that may be a major factor in how he chose he set up, tho ive driven stock 1.4k & 1.6k roadsports & they are not exactly track orientated either in the manner of an SL or SLR say.
I can't offer any oprinion on other westies or other kits as altho ive had the opertunity to drive 'em I literally just couldnt fit in them to do so! (Westie x flow & Sylva stryker x flow) which is indeed a bugger, esp when something like this type of thing teases me so- www.pistonheads.com/sales/54032.htm
also I cant speak for x flow or 2.0VX Cats as ive not (yet) driven those either, tho I do hope the 2.0vx does have a degree of that lithe-ness as on paper it is such the 'right' 7 for me- well when i can actually afford one that is
iguana said:
also I cant speak for x flow or 2.0VX Cats as ive not (yet) driven those either, tho I do hope the 2.0vx does have a degree of that lithe-ness as on paper it is such the 'right' 7 for me- well when i can actually afford one that is
Mate, you are more than welcome to try mine out - thing is, we're having just too much fun on track days to swap cars aren't we?...
...mine's pretty well as sorted as you can get - there's a touch more understeer than my SLR but not enough to worry about and on-track with ACB10s, it's not noticeable at all.
Steve B - missed the fact you have a VHPD - for me THE best engine for a 7 - rev happy, makes a great noise and the car takes off over 4,000 revs....shame that my track record with said powerplant is just not very good
Ruby I did add- (yet) yeh I know your offer has always been there matey.
Anyhow with the new business I've even got proper drive all cars insurance sorted now too mind you I wanna play in that dancing donkey of yours too...... so as ever just need to sort out a nice dry sunny day with us both free is all.
yeh I know your offer has always been there matey. Anyhow with the new business I've even got proper drive all cars insurance sorted now too
mind you I wanna play in that dancing donkey of yours too...... so as ever just need to sort out a nice dry sunny day with us both free is all. rubystone said:
shame that my track record with said powerplant is just not very good
you know, i hear that from time to time about the VHPD's but i know a lot of folks with 20-30K miles on them who just drive and drive and drive them with no issue. i did loose a head gasket in the first 2K miles, but now i just loose speedo cables all the time ;-)
Ah but we were talking Seven type cars weren't we. XTR2 and XTR4 are defintaely very fast and faster than a Caterham on some circuits. Shubbery bloke says that Caterham don't make one in "brick sh1thouse size", they do it is called the SV and that fits some big blokes (wide and tall).
There are something like 50 different manufacturers churning out seven copies around the world some are very good some are OK but there are a lot that are awful. It astounds me the number of new entrants into this market there are every year and makes me wonder why people don't go and make something of their own that is original?
I seem to remember that the R300 whipped various seven type cars in a Circuit Driver test despite having less power than a few of the slower competitors? One of the cars it beat was a 200bhp Westfield Duratec engined car...
There are something like 50 different manufacturers churning out seven copies around the world some are very good some are OK but there are a lot that are awful. It astounds me the number of new entrants into this market there are every year and makes me wonder why people don't go and make something of their own that is original?
I seem to remember that the R300 whipped various seven type cars in a Circuit Driver test despite having less power than a few of the slower competitors? One of the cars it beat was a 200bhp Westfield Duratec engined car...
dino ferrana said:
Ah but we were talking Seven type cars weren't we. XTR2 and XTR4 are defintaely very fast and faster than a Caterham on some circuits. Shubbery bloke says that Caterham don't make one in "brick sh1thouse size", they do it is called the SV and that fits some big blokes (wide and tall).
Good point - one I meant to make...a totally meaningless comparison. I'd rather have some fun with my car than go for an outright fast time on a circuit - I don't think I'd have the skills to collect an XTR2/Radical if I tried to get it sideways, unlike the Caterham where it almost sorts itself out for me.
Steve-B said:
Dino, seen the XTR/2 or XTR/4 ??
they leave almost anything for dead, kind of not the same looking as a Se7en, but defeats your point mate i'm afraid
Hmmm, have yet to see an XTR time thats as good as an R400 race time ? And the handling needs even more fettling. Last chap I heard about who bought one to race, first thing he did was have the entire chassis re-welded.
mandela said:
jackal, are you rebuilding your rusty chassis or taking advice from your westfield mate
Hmmm, what do you mean by rusty ? Have you seen my chassis of late, do i know you ? What exactly are you implying ?
Secondly, what do you mean by taking advice from my westfield mate ? I am not entirely sure I understand your question ?
The cars I believe Rubystone was referring to were Texan Ultralites, an American version of the seven with a Honda 2000 motor. To our great good fortune the trip allowed us to make friends with the American guys on the tour as well as the great bunch of people from England. Two of the Stateside people Steve and Chuck) were running Ultralites and believe me they quick, very very very quick! At one stage on the tour steve in his Ultralite had a bit of a ding dong with Buzz and Barry, and I seem to remember that he did pass both of them. (To be fair I cannot remember where we actually were at the time and this is significant because quite a few of our cars were struggling with the effects of altitude/low air density at various points on the trip). To me a Seven is a Seven and unlike the majority of cars these days they are jam packed with character (and characters!) regardless of who makes them. I actually like the idea of meeting the Westy crowd (and others)more often because all sevens are ok by me, and whilst our cars might be a bit different from eachother the people who drive them have pretty much the same idea about what constitutes a great car.
Caterham vs Westfield vs Robin Hood vs Locost vs Ultralite vs ...
WHO CARES!!! Spend what you want, get out there and DRIVE. It's there for enjoying. Everyone has their own criteria for what is "best". Choose your criteria, buy to that criteria and start getting the road and track miles onto it.
In these days of ultra-safe, boring cars and heavily traffic'd and camera'd roads, we need to celebrate all cars that allow extra freedom from the normal drudgery. Ignore the badge, the cost, the image and enjoy the fact we can still buy/build such "dangerous" cars.
WHO CARES!!! Spend what you want, get out there and DRIVE. It's there for enjoying. Everyone has their own criteria for what is "best". Choose your criteria, buy to that criteria and start getting the road and track miles onto it.
In these days of ultra-safe, boring cars and heavily traffic'd and camera'd roads, we need to celebrate all cars that allow extra freedom from the normal drudgery. Ignore the badge, the cost, the image and enjoy the fact we can still buy/build such "dangerous" cars.
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