CATERHAM V'S WESTFIELD

[rubystone]

fw500 said:

Didn't the MD of Caterham write an article a short while ago critisizing Caterham owners that had anything positive to say about Westfields? Claiming it was some kind of breach of brand loyalty? Westfield management must have been chuckling in their boardroom at that - you can't pay for that sort of publicity!

Edited by fw500 on Monday 14th April 10:46

He also criticised L7 Club members for discussing the competition too! That lead to an interesting thread on Blatchat!!!

[Noger]

Martin Keene said:

Sir, you appear to have been swallowed up by Caterham's marketing machine. If you believe the Cosworth Duratec's were developed and payed for by Caterham, then so be it. However, I know, from a Cosworth employee, that they were developed, and funded, by the USA Focus tuning market. Which, however you choose to cut it, is a far bigger market than Caterham's in the UK.

Sir, you appear to have been swallowed up by your own bitterness

Whilst you are right that many of the part the PARTS were originally developed for the USA aftermarket, Cosworth supply an Engine to Caterham not a kit.

“I’m delighted that Cosworth has been able to work with Caterham to provide this solution, developing, building and supplying the Duratec engine for the new model,” said Cosworth’s Production Engines Chief Engineer, Nigel Foxhall. “We worked very closely with Caterham at all stages of the development, to ensure that not only did the engine match all performance criteria but that it could be successfully installed in the most advanced Caterham yet.

http://www.cosworth.com/news_detail.php?id=8

You couldn't buy the complete engine from Cosworth until the following year.

[Noger]

rubystone said:

fw500 said:

Didn't the MD of Caterham write an article a short while ago critisizing Caterham owners that had anything positive to say about Westfields? Claiming it was some kind of breach of brand loyalty? Westfield management must have been chuckling in their boardroom at that - you can't pay for that sort of publicity!

Edited by fw500 on Monday 14th April 10:46

He also criticised L7 Club members for discussing the competition too! That lead to an interesting thread on Blatchat!!!

That was in response to a posting about a Porsche IIRC not a Westfield !

And then he sort of explained himself in the next issue of Caterham life AND posted on the forum.

[rubystone]

Noger said:

That was in response to a posting about a Porsche IIRC not a Westfield !

And then he sort of explained himself in the next issue of Caterham life AND posted on the forum.

Noger, I was very careful to quote "the competition" - no specifics. It was in response to a posting on the GT3 and then the thread expanded into the likes of the Ariel Atom.

And yes, after some prompting, he did post....I must confess to not seeinghis response in the next edition of Caterham Life - must go back and see what he said.

[rubystone]

Noger said:

“I’m delighted that Cosworth has been able to work with Caterham to provide this solution, developing, building and supplying the Duratec engine for the new model,” said Cosworth’s Production Engines Chief Engineer, Nigel Foxhall. “We worked very closely with Caterham at all stages of the development, to ensure that not only did the engine match all performance criteria but that it could be successfully installed in the most advanced Caterham yet.

http://www.cosworth.com/news_detail.php?id=8

You couldn't buy the complete engine from Cosworth until the following year.

Do Cosworth build any of the Duratecs in Caterhams now, out of interest?

[Noger]

rubystone said:

And yes, after some prompting, he did post....I must confess to not seeinghis response in the next edition of Caterham Life - must go back and see what he said.

It is the December issue. Interesting tidbit on the launch of the Dutch Academy too, and the "competitor" taking notes and apparently launching something similar. Now where'o'where did I see that link to a race series in Holland ? Hmmmmmm wonder what the outcome was

[adamh]

fw500 said:

Didn't the MD of Caterham write an article a short while ago critisizing Caterham owners that had anything positive to say about Westfields?

As others have said, it wasn't Westfields.

Considering I've never heard of a Caterham owner 'moving on' to a Westfield, I doubt Caterham's MD is that fussed about losing existing owners to Westfield anyway.

[.Adam.]

rubystone said:

I rejoice that cars of these types are still being made. There's a place for all of them out there, from a home-built Locost to an RS Performance Levante. I've enjoyed some great blats with Westfields, Tigers and Daxes.

Agree completely, I'd much rather be driving around in a £3k Sylva or Tiger than nothing at all, just because I couldn't afford a Caterham or Westfield.

One thing I do like about Westfield over Caterham is that if I was to go and order a new Westfield tomorrow, I know that a large part of the car is actually manufactured by Westfield themselves, I believe the only major thing they outsource is the powdercoating, which is done in a factory across the road. When I go and pick my Westfield up, I can meet the 2 people that built my car from start to finish, which seems a lot more personal than the production line that Caterham now use. Whether this ultimatly matters I don't know, but it is something that I think Westfield have in their favour.

Also, if I go to buy a Westie, I have the choice of an XI, lots of 7 variants with 2 distinctly different body styles, the XTR4, and with the acquistion of GTM, the Libra and Spyder. Even if people see these as just 'copies', at least it shows that Westfield are happy to expand and try to get a foothold in new markets.

Without your Westfield, Dax etc I expect that your Caterham wouldn't be as good a car as it is now, competition means that you need to develop and improve your own product to keep ahead of your rivals, without all the 7 copies, Caterham wouldn't have had any direct rivals, hence no reason to develop their car as far as they have.

I think whoever your allegencies lie with, you have to hope that all these companies prosper and continue giving us the choice that is currently available in the marketplace at the moment for a long time to come.

Edited by .Adam. on Monday 14th April 12:33

[rubystone]

Noger said:

It is the December issue. Interesting tidbit on the launch of the Dutch Academy too, and the "competitor" taking notes and apparently launching something similar. Now where'o'where did I see that link to a race series in Holland ? Hmmmmmm wonder what the outcome was

I could tell you, but I'd then have to shoot you....

[Sam_68]

adamh said:

Considering I've never heard of a Caterham owner 'moving on' to a Westfield...

You have now.

[fw500]

adamh said:

Considering I've never heard of a Caterham owner 'moving on' to a Westfield

I can assure you it does happen (I know it must be terribly hard to believe) - and from a Westfield owners point of view, I can't really see myself 'moving on' to a Caterham / Dax / Quantum / MK or any other comparable in the future, only because I can't really see what more that would offer me.

[RobM77]

Sam_68 said:

adamh said:

Considering I've never heard of a Caterham owner 'moving on' to a Westfield...

You have now.

It's rare though, you must admit!

[Noger]

I traded a Boxster S for a Smart car !

[Pat H]

RobM77 said:

Sam_68 said:

adamh said:

Considering I've never heard of a Caterham owner 'moving on' to a Westfield...

You have now.

It's rare though, you must admit!

Not that rare.

I've previously owned both Westfield Caterham Sevens.

I bought another Caterham to restore only a couple of weeks ago, but only after carefully weighing up the pros and cons.

What I really wanted was a Westfield Eleven, but the cost and the hassle of SVA, registering the car and having to track down and murder an old Midget or Sprit to use as a donor eventually led me to conclude that it was better to settle for second best and buy an old Caterham.

[MarchHare]

For me the Westfield XI is exactly the right approach to replicas. They have sought to recreate not just the look of the car but the real experience by keeping the power low, the tyres skinny and the engineering basic. I'd love one, especially for road use where I think you could exploit the feel of the car at sensible speeds. I just don't have the time to do the full build thing with an old midget either (the car, that is, I have no Moselyesque tendencies for perverted pleasures, at least none that I'm admitting to!)

[Noger]

ISTR there was a lot of love for the XI on Blatchat, and I have yet to hear a bad word from owners.

If you have a track beast that isn't too compliant on todays pothole ridden roads, I can see the attraction of an addition to the stable.

[Martin Keene]

Murph7355 said:

Martin Keene said:

...
Also I have a question for you. If Caterham's developement is that much superior to Westfield's, why did it take them another ~15 years to come up with a fully independant rear suspension after Westfield did?

Does IRS make a car intrinsically "better"?

Not necessarily. However, you only need look at the number of RWD drive cars on the market with live rear axles to assume that in most cases in must be. But that is not the point I was trying to make.

Darth_Pies said:
[quote]Once again, you make clear that you know nothing about Caterham or the industry you claim to write about. Caterham spend vastly more on engineering and development than PR and Marketing.

So considering Caterham spend such vast sums, Darth_Pies words, not mine, on engineering and development, why it took tham another 15 years to come up with IRS.

[Martin Keene]

Noger said:

Martin Keene said:

Sir, you appear to have been swallowed up by Caterham's marketing machine. If you believe the Cosworth Duratec's were developed and payed for by Caterham, then so be it. However, I know, from a Cosworth employee, that they were developed, and funded, by the USA Focus tuning market. Which, however you choose to cut it, is a far bigger market than Caterham's in the UK.

Sir, you appear to have been swallowed up by your own bitterness

Whilst you are right that many of the part the PARTS were originally developed for the USA aftermarket, Cosworth supply an Engine to Caterham not a kit.

“I’m delighted that Cosworth has been able to work with Caterham to provide this solution, developing, building and supplying the Duratec engine for the new model,” said Cosworth’s Production Engines Chief Engineer, Nigel Foxhall. “We worked very closely with Caterham at all stages of the development, to ensure that not only did the engine match all performance criteria but that it could be successfully installed in the most advanced Caterham yet.

http://www.cosworth.com/news_detail.php?id=8

You couldn't buy the complete engine from Cosworth until the following year.

There is no bitterness here. OK, so you couldn't buy an engine from Cosworth until the following year, but what is the difference, apart from possibly a warrenty, between a kit of parts designed for the USA tuning scene fitted to an engine from another source, and those same bits fitted to an engine from another source?

[Murph7355]

Martin Keene said:

...
So considering Caterham spend such vast sums, Darth_Pies words, not mine, on engineering and development, why it took tham another 15 years to come up with IRS.

I think you have to look at what Caterham were doing in that time though?

It's own 6-speed box, a few changes in engine supply, stiffening up the chassis, drilling down into the weight saving campaign (first SL's etc), changes and tweaks to the front suspension, brakes, LSDs etc. Many (most/all) of the developments getting track time in various race series to ensure they were done properly.

And still, as mentioned, IRS is not a *must have* on a Caterham.

Simply there were other bits of the car that could be developed to give bigger gains and hence Caterham would seem to have focussed on these.

[Sam_68]

Murph7355 said:

Martin Keene said:

...
Also I have a question for you. If Caterham's developement is that much superior to Westfield's, why did it take them another ~15 years to come up with a fully independant rear suspension after Westfield did?

Does IRS make a car intrinsically "better"?

As Martin said, not necessarily, though as I mentioned earlier (whilst drifting slightly off-topic), you do start to run into some pretty fundamental problems with unsprung weight (more specifically, the ratio of sprung:unsprung weight) when you get to very lightweight cars like Sevens.

It's not too critical on the track, since you can just use very stiff springs and dampers to control the mass of the de Dion as it tries to bounce around, but for road use you end up with a car that lacks the necessary compliance and the whole car then tends to skip and hop around a lot on uneven tarmac.

IMO, it's the biggest problem the Caterham has for road use, especially with the wide, low-profile rubber that is fashionable these days (which are particularly sensitive to variations in tyre load with respect to the grip they generate)... I find that quite a lot of the time your pace is limited by discomfort or lack of controlability to the point where ostensibly slower cars with more compliant suspension (eg. the Elise) can cover the ground far more quickly.

Ultimately, it's the reason why I'd be more inclined towards a Westfield SEi for road use (though many people adjust the damping on their Westfields to be far too stiff, too, in the mistaken belief that what's good for a track car is good for a road car).

Edited by Sam_68 on Monday 14th April 18:31