CATERHAM V'S WESTFIELD
Discussion
peter pan said:
The cars I believe Rubystone was referring to were Texan Ultralites, an American version of the seven with a Honda 2000 motor. To our great good fortune the trip allowed us to make friends with the American guys on the tour as well as the great bunch of people from England. Two of the Stateside people Steve and Chuck) were running Ultralites and believe me they quick, very very very quick! At one stage on the tour steve in his Ultralite had a bit of a ding dong with Buzz and Barry, and I seem to remember that he did pass both of them. (To be fair I cannot remember where we actually were at the time and this is significant because quite a few of our cars were struggling with the effects of altitude/low air density at various points on the trip). To me a Seven is a Seven and unlike the majority of cars these days they are jam packed with character (and characters!) regardless of who makes them. I actually like the idea of meeting the Westy crowd (and others)more often because all sevens are ok by me, and whilst our cars might be a bit different from eachother the people who drive them have pretty much the same idea about what constitutes a great car.
Pete mate, welsome to PH - did I miss the Essex Region event last night?...
errrr, dont go giving me that "everythings subjective" crap !
take a look at these:
www.polyhex.com/php-cgi/gallery/albums/funnies/chavcar.sized.jpg
and
www.rsportscars.com/foto/10/murcielago02_18.jpg
you'll notice that one is shit and teh other one isn't ... pretty dam obvious regrdaless of what 'sane' criteria you use
>> Edited by jackal on Friday 9th December 16:13
take a look at these:
www.polyhex.com/php-cgi/gallery/albums/funnies/chavcar.sized.jpg
and
www.rsportscars.com/foto/10/murcielago02_18.jpg
you'll notice that one is shit and teh other one isn't ... pretty dam obvious regrdaless of what 'sane' criteria you use
>> Edited by jackal on Friday 9th December 16:13
jackal said:
errrr, dont go giving me that "everythings subjective" crap !
take a look at these:
www.polyhex.com/php-cgi/gallery/albums/funnies/chavcar.sized.jpg
and
www.rsportscars.com/foto/10/murcielago02_18.jpg
you'll notice that one is shit and teh other one isn't ... pretty dam obvious regrdaless of what 'sane' criteria you use
>> Edited by jackal on Friday 9th December 16:13
And in what way are either of those 7-esque?
And my point was that in the world of 7-esque cars, why do we bother arguing about which is better as it's a subjective and financial decision? Just enjoy the driving and stop worrying about whether a Westham is better than a Caterfield 
Anyway, the answer is always that my car is best
Anyway, the answer is always that my car is best
Hello,
I am a very satisfield Westfield owner, based in The Netherlands. Here we have the Donkervoort boys, very well build and lovely sevens! Last year I went to the Dutch car show, and they reveiled their new hardtop model, nice looking car!
When I started talking to the owners son and I refererd to having a kitcar, he replied the Donkervoort wasn't a kitcar, it wasn't even based on the Lotus seven he added!! LOOK at it you ignorent fool!
When I visited the Caterham stand they were very enthousiastic about my westfield and invited me to drive one of their cars, thats how it should be.
In my humble opinion the caterham is better looking, but a bit expensive. The westfield offers better value for money.
If I had the choice and money would not be an object, I'd trade in my westie for a nice Cateringvan. Maybe even a Donkervoort just because it's made in Holland.
Conclusion is that neither one are certified better than the other.
Just my 2 cents...
I am a very satisfield Westfield owner, based in The Netherlands. Here we have the Donkervoort boys, very well build and lovely sevens! Last year I went to the Dutch car show, and they reveiled their new hardtop model, nice looking car!
When I started talking to the owners son and I refererd to having a kitcar, he replied the Donkervoort wasn't a kitcar, it wasn't even based on the Lotus seven he added!! LOOK at it you ignorent fool!
When I visited the Caterham stand they were very enthousiastic about my westfield and invited me to drive one of their cars, thats how it should be.
In my humble opinion the caterham is better looking, but a bit expensive. The westfield offers better value for money.
If I had the choice and money would not be an object, I'd trade in my westie for a nice Cateringvan. Maybe even a Donkervoort just because it's made in Holland.
Conclusion is that neither one are certified better than the other.
Just my 2 cents...
If it is purely looks you are after then the answer is clear cut. You either like a Wesfield or a Caterham. If you want residual values then again, it is quite obvious which car holds it money well in regard to the brand new factory cost. If you are after pure PERFORMANCE, then POUND FOR POUND you have to look at a racing series where the Caterhams race against the Westfields. It only really happens in the 750 MC, RGB and Kit Car series. Historically, the Sylva Fury, Phoenix and Striker whoop both. Aerodynamics!
Furyblade_Lee said:
If you are after pure PERFORMANCE, then POUND FOR POUND you have to look at a racing series where the Caterhams race against the Westfields. It only really happens in the 750 MC, RGB and Kit Car series. Historically, the Sylva Fury, Phoenix and Striker whoop both. Aerodynamics!
Yep. Can't really argue with that.I've owned all three marques (I currently own two out of the three - a Westfield and a Sylva), and whilst I'm fortunate enough to be in a position where cost really doesn't matter all that much any more, there isn't a shadow of a doubt that in terms of money : performance, the Sylva wins hands down.
There hasn't been a Caterham in RGB for years has there ? And not sure there ever has been one in Kit Car ? Not that many Westfields either.
You won't find much in it between two fast drivers in a fast Westie or Caterham. We had a similar discussion on the late-lamented Seven Torque, and for every Hill Climb Record in a MegaBusa you could find another for a Caterbusa (usually Brodie Branch, who would be quick in a Robin Reliant!).
You won't find much in it between two fast drivers in a fast Westie or Caterham. We had a similar discussion on the late-lamented Seven Torque, and for every Hill Climb Record in a MegaBusa you could find another for a Caterbusa (usually Brodie Branch, who would be quick in a Robin Reliant!).
Noger said:
There hasn't been a Caterham in RGB for years has there ? And not sure there ever has been one in Kit Car ? Not that many Westfields either.
No, because they have been proven to be uncompetitive; success breeds success and the grids have been full of Sylva derivatives for several years. That's not to say that Caterfield-type cars haven't tried and failed in the past, though... and to be fair the Sylva Striker (the open wheeled, 'Seven' variant) is uncompetitive, too. As Lee says, it's a simple matter of aerodynamics... my Phoenix will pull nearly 140mph on a semi-race Ford Crossflow giving about 150-155 bhp. I'd be lucky to see a genuine 125mph with the same engine in a Caterfield. It's less critical on a hillclimb, but on a circuit or on the public roads, where speeds rarely drop out of the range where aerodynamic drag is significant, that sort of advantage is pretty crushing.
Edited by Sam_68 on Monday 24th March 15:32
Sam_68 said:
No, because they have been proven to be uncompetitive; success breeds success and the grids have been full of Sylva derivatives for several years. That's not to say that Caterfield-type cars haven't tried and failed in the past, though... and to be fair the Sylva Striker (the open wheeled, 'Seven' variant) is uncompetitive, too.
As Lee says, it's a simple matter of aerodynamics... my Phoenix will pull nearly 140mph on a semi-race Ford Crossflow giving about 150-155 bhp. I'd be lucky to see a genuine 125mph with the same engine in a Caterfield. It's less critical on a hillclimb, but on a circuit or on the public roads, where speeds rarely drop out of the range where aerodynamic drag is significant, that sort of advantage is pretty crushing.
Hmm, I think you will struggle to find more than one Caterham that has ever been in RGB (A Fireblade IIRC, and whilst not at the top, it was hardly "crushed", my BEC was being built by STM at the time, so got a few reports), and the Kit Car formula with its 2 valve per cylinder and 5 speed box regs is not Caterham friendly. As Lee says, it's a simple matter of aerodynamics... my Phoenix will pull nearly 140mph on a semi-race Ford Crossflow giving about 150-155 bhp. I'd be lucky to see a genuine 125mph with the same engine in a Caterfield. It's less critical on a hillclimb, but on a circuit or on the public roads, where speeds rarely drop out of the range where aerodynamic drag is significant, that sort of advantage is pretty crushing.
So I think it is more a case of the regs tend to favour starting from somewhere other than a Caterfield, rather than this picture you portray of lots of failures to perform. Certainly if you want to compete in these forumla, getting a 6 speed 16-valve car and de-speccing it isn't cost effective. Getting an STM or Sylva chassis and building from there is a far better choice.
Certainly a MegaGrad (150bhp ish) is up there in lap times with the Kit Car formula. Again, not "crushed" by any means.
The aerodynamics (or lack of) of Sevenesque cars are overstated anyway, whilst they might not have the sliperyness, they have little frontal area. Vmax tends to be limited by revs, at least in Caterhams, rather than aero.
It is always difficult to compare across formula anyway, RGB has not always been as it is today, the Radicals being hived off to Bike Sports. The majority of the Radicals make most Seven, and even non-Seven type cars looks quite slow !
Decide what you want, and choose what is best for that. Want a car that is "out of the box" quick, then perhaps a Caterhfield would suit. 750 MC beckons, then look elsewhere.
Noger said:
The aerodynamics (or lack of) of Sevenesque cars are overstated anyway, whilst they might not have the sliperyness, they have little frontal area.
True enough, it is CdA that counts. But the Sylva has very little frontal area either (it's also slightly lighter, like-for-like, but that's another story).I can only speak from experience of both cars. Above 100mph, it takes a lot of power to see much acceleration out of a Caterfield, and if you lift off the throttle the deceleration due to drag is much more noticeable (particularly if you knock the cars out of gear to remove the effect of engine braking). As to gearing, my Sylva is geared for 141mph in top. I've never been brave enough to hold it absolutely flat out for long enough to see if it will get there, but it will pull 135+ with ease. My Westfield (with aeroscreen and circa 165bhp), is geared shorter -for 129mph in top - but the highest I've managed is about 125; it's running similarly short of breath as the Sylva, at a good 10mph slower despite having more power.
The nearest direct analogy would be between the Lotus Eleven and the original Lotus Seven (which used an Eleven chassis). The Eleven was recorded at over 130mph on an 1100cc Climax engine (admittedly with a bubble canopy, rigid tonneau and taped-up body joints). The Seven, with a similar engine (about 85-90bhp in period) could just scrape into 3 figures.
My family have owned a Stuart Taylor with 1600 4Age toyota engine - 175bhp
Currently building an S2000 Powered Dax Rush with Camber Compensation - 255 bhp
And we have an R400 ex race care - 200 bhp
Put it this way the Caterham is the most recent purchase after soon realising the limits with the other two. And as stated above its the regs that hamper the Caterham in the kit car championships.
Currently building an S2000 Powered Dax Rush with Camber Compensation - 255 bhp
And we have an R400 ex race care - 200 bhp
Put it this way the Caterham is the most recent purchase after soon realising the limits with the other two. And as stated above its the regs that hamper the Caterham in the kit car championships.
ahh, the age old debate.
I have owned a Westfield and a Caterham (3 actually but still got one of them) so i am fairly well placed to jump on my soap box. I bought the Westie because it was all i could stretch to at the time. I had great fun in it (and regularly got the chance to fix the thing!), so it served it's purpose.
However, having owned it (and sold it!) i came to appreciate that magic word associated with genuine 7's - "Residuals". I went on to own both a Superlight and an R400 and i lost very little on both cars over a few years of ownership. In fact, when you add it up it barely cost me anymore for 4 years of Caterham ownership than it did for 2 years of Westfield ownership - almost unbelievable considering that the Caterhams are of a much higher value (the R400 cost nearly twice the Westie)
Considering the higher performance, better looks and subsequently more enjoyable ownership it is hard to argue against the Caterham.
I do believe that Westfields (and all of the other clones) do serve a purpose - they introduce many people to the world of seven ownership that otherwise couldn't afford the initial cash outlay of a Caterham. However, in their heart of hearts i do not believe that anyone who owns a clone wouldn't secretly swap it in a heart beat for a Caterham given the chance. When you consider that (as mentioned above)a Caterham can cost you less the argument becomes even more clear cut.
You pays your money, you makes your choices!
I have owned a Westfield and a Caterham (3 actually but still got one of them) so i am fairly well placed to jump on my soap box. I bought the Westie because it was all i could stretch to at the time. I had great fun in it (and regularly got the chance to fix the thing!), so it served it's purpose.
However, having owned it (and sold it!) i came to appreciate that magic word associated with genuine 7's - "Residuals". I went on to own both a Superlight and an R400 and i lost very little on both cars over a few years of ownership. In fact, when you add it up it barely cost me anymore for 4 years of Caterham ownership than it did for 2 years of Westfield ownership - almost unbelievable considering that the Caterhams are of a much higher value (the R400 cost nearly twice the Westie)
Considering the higher performance, better looks and subsequently more enjoyable ownership it is hard to argue against the Caterham.
I do believe that Westfields (and all of the other clones) do serve a purpose - they introduce many people to the world of seven ownership that otherwise couldn't afford the initial cash outlay of a Caterham. However, in their heart of hearts i do not believe that anyone who owns a clone wouldn't secretly swap it in a heart beat for a Caterham given the chance. When you consider that (as mentioned above)a Caterham can cost you less the argument becomes even more clear cut.
You pays your money, you makes your choices!
Edited by atom-ick on Tuesday 25th March 10:05
Edited by atom-ick on Tuesday 25th March 10:12
I think the most compelling and complete argument in favour of Caterham that I've read was from 7 cynic Mark Hales. He's not into the whole 7 thing, but was invited by Circuit Driver magazine to drive a Caterham (R300) and all its copies around a race track. Two facts stood out from the test:
The Caterham was the least powerful car there, but the fastest around a lap.
The Caterham was apparently much better to drive, with better handling, feedback and ergonomics.
Mark noted that the Westfield was definitely second best, and way better than the opposition.
The Caterham was the least powerful car there, but the fastest around a lap.
The Caterham was apparently much better to drive, with better handling, feedback and ergonomics.
Mark noted that the Westfield was definitely second best, and way better than the opposition.
I think it is slightly missing the point to judge a Caterham by whether or not it could compete in something like RGB, 750MC or other mixed grid series. The majority of Caterham racers prefer one make series as this provides very close racing, reasonable cost control and results based on driver ability rather than budget.
I have great respect for cars like the silva or westie which compete successfully in mixed grids but it probably entails a degree of commitment to development and workshop time that most Caterham racers would rather spend on the race track.
I don't think you can argue with the success of the Caterham on the race track with numerous one make series running most weekends and with the Academy providing a brilliant introduction to the sport.
Not better, just different.
I have great respect for cars like the silva or westie which compete successfully in mixed grids but it probably entails a degree of commitment to development and workshop time that most Caterham racers would rather spend on the race track.
I don't think you can argue with the success of the Caterham on the race track with numerous one make series running most weekends and with the Academy providing a brilliant introduction to the sport.
Not better, just different.
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