CATERHAM V'S WESTFIELD
Discussion
This is a good one as usual. I looked at Caterhams and many other types of Seven clones and the one thing that swung me was the size. Up to the SV being made a couple of years ago, any one who liked a few pies could not get in one. I bought a cheap Westfield to make sure it was for me, I sold it later and never lost a penny on it.
Since then I have built three more spending around £10 on each one and have made money in doing so. I have met several Caterham owners who are decent guys and appreciate cars for what they are. I have also met several who feel superior because they can write a cheque and would ridicule Westfield, and Locost owners. But the guys who can build a car to the standard of Barry's, mine or any of the decent Locost derivaties have no need to feel inferior to any other maques especially when the critique is from a cheque book wonder.
Try as many as you can and buy what feels best to you, if that is a Caterham so be it but choose with an open mind and don't be taken in by the dearest is best heritage rules brigade.
Since then I have built three more spending around £10 on each one and have made money in doing so. I have met several Caterham owners who are decent guys and appreciate cars for what they are. I have also met several who feel superior because they can write a cheque and would ridicule Westfield, and Locost owners. But the guys who can build a car to the standard of Barry's, mine or any of the decent Locost derivaties have no need to feel inferior to any other maques especially when the critique is from a cheque book wonder.
Try as many as you can and buy what feels best to you, if that is a Caterham so be it but choose with an open mind and don't be taken in by the dearest is best heritage rules brigade.
Oh god, we shouldn't ridicule Westfield owners ? That has been a big part of my life for 15 years, please don't take that away from me 
On a more serious note, I am perfectly happy to accept the "dearest isn't best" argument, and it is often true. However I am willing to bet that you (or anyone else who sings this particular tune) don't apply this across the board to your life. I bet you have bought say a watch or a guitar or something, and paid over the odds just because you wanted a Fender or a Patek Phillipe or same other "brand" that puts a cost on heritage. Or live in a "nice" area.
Yes, there are people who only ever shop at Aldi and bulk buy baked beans, and wait for things to come up in sales (and I know a few) but even they have occasional lapses of thrift.
Simply applying a particular principle to a car, when you probably don't apply it to other areas, seems somewhat to be setting the rules to suit yourself. And you can't be too suprised if people cry foul.
The "I built my seven from iron ore and clay" brigade have by utmost admiration. But they are sometimes just as guilty of looking down on "cheque book" sevens as the reverse is true. There are some wonderful home built cars, that have higher standards of engineering than many off-the-shelf cars. But there are also an awful lot of badly welded dogs with hugely heavy donor bits being touted as "Just as good as a Caterham".
My friend has a Pinto Westie. It has suspension that a Chinese tractor would flinch at and a glove box FFS. To compare it to my Caterham is unfair. They do different things. But in terms of performance and handling, there really is no contest. I do not of course think that all Westfields are like his. Just as not all Caterhams are R500 EVOs. Some are better than others.
Ultimately, let us be grateful for one thing. Producing rather funny looking noddy cars has been a good business for a number of years. Just look at TVR, the way Noble is going, and compare it with Caterham and Westfield, and even the Locost chassis manufacturers. Whilst our cars may not get on the front cover of Evo or Autocar that often, or give Porsche sleepless nights, they have been around for decades, and will continue to do so. Without the competition between then, would have done so well ?
On a more serious note, I am perfectly happy to accept the "dearest isn't best" argument, and it is often true. However I am willing to bet that you (or anyone else who sings this particular tune) don't apply this across the board to your life. I bet you have bought say a watch or a guitar or something, and paid over the odds just because you wanted a Fender or a Patek Phillipe or same other "brand" that puts a cost on heritage. Or live in a "nice" area.
Yes, there are people who only ever shop at Aldi and bulk buy baked beans, and wait for things to come up in sales (and I know a few) but even they have occasional lapses of thrift.
Simply applying a particular principle to a car, when you probably don't apply it to other areas, seems somewhat to be setting the rules to suit yourself. And you can't be too suprised if people cry foul.
The "I built my seven from iron ore and clay" brigade have by utmost admiration. But they are sometimes just as guilty of looking down on "cheque book" sevens as the reverse is true. There are some wonderful home built cars, that have higher standards of engineering than many off-the-shelf cars. But there are also an awful lot of badly welded dogs with hugely heavy donor bits being touted as "Just as good as a Caterham".
My friend has a Pinto Westie. It has suspension that a Chinese tractor would flinch at and a glove box FFS. To compare it to my Caterham is unfair. They do different things. But in terms of performance and handling, there really is no contest. I do not of course think that all Westfields are like his. Just as not all Caterhams are R500 EVOs. Some are better than others.
Ultimately, let us be grateful for one thing. Producing rather funny looking noddy cars has been a good business for a number of years. Just look at TVR, the way Noble is going, and compare it with Caterham and Westfield, and even the Locost chassis manufacturers. Whilst our cars may not get on the front cover of Evo or Autocar that often, or give Porsche sleepless nights, they have been around for decades, and will continue to do so. Without the competition between then, would have done so well ?
the answer is quite simple imho you cant compare all westfields with all caterhams, different cars will vary, Ive seen some crocks of s
te and some very good examples in both , out the box the caterham may be better for track use, a lot of people build westys for there purpose ie road use and touring, but I do know of many westys that have been built from new for track use that a caterham will struggle to catch both straight line and twistys..
Ive had a few westys now and I think they are good value for money, theres nothing stopping me buying a caterham (i think they look better an really like the r500s and csr260"s ) but if I was spending an extra £15k from what I would get from the sale of my westy I would expect to be improving on what Ive allready got and I dont believe that I would be doing that, I certainly wouldnt want to shell out a load of money and end up lapping at a slower pace
If I wanted a car to go quicker in, I think I would buy an sr3.
lights touch paper and legs it
te and some very good examples in both , out the box the caterham may be better for track use, a lot of people build westys for there purpose ie road use and touring, but I do know of many westys that have been built from new for track use that a caterham will struggle to catch both straight line and twistys..Ive had a few westys now and I think they are good value for money, theres nothing stopping me buying a caterham (i think they look better an really like the r500s and csr260"s ) but if I was spending an extra £15k from what I would get from the sale of my westy I would expect to be improving on what Ive allready got and I dont believe that I would be doing that, I certainly wouldnt want to shell out a load of money and end up lapping at a slower pace
If I wanted a car to go quicker in, I think I would buy an sr3.lights touch paper and legs it
I am a massive kit-car fan, having owned 3, but for me the Caterham is the "REAL DEAL". I will probobly get one next year, and having owned some properly fast BEC's you would think I would hanker after an R400 or something. But i actually want a crossflow powered car, probobly a 1700 Supersprint. Because that for me, is a proper Caterham through and through. You could throw another 100 bhp at it, but although substantially faster, i doubt it would be "better". If my budget is £8k, £10K or £15k i would find it hard to spent it on a Westy over a Caterham. I just love the history, having grown up near Caterham Cars. But if a Westfield floats your particular boat, go for it.
thinfourth2 said:
All arguments about which is faster is irrelevant as a radical is quicker then both
We can only measure exactly which one is better when the gigglemeter is finally invented which will give exact readings as to which one is better
Until then all arguments are fruitless
And an F3 car is quicker than a Radical! We can only measure exactly which one is better when the gigglemeter is finally invented which will give exact readings as to which one is better
Until then all arguments are fruitless
That doesn't make discussions about Radicals pointless!As for the giggle meter, my money's on Caterham as the handling is better resolved
Some of you on here are friends, some of you I know in passing and some of you I hope to meet in the future.
I own a Westfield, my brother owns a Caterham but we still remain brothers :-)
Buy what you like and enjoy the type 7 experience of both the car and the relevant club you may or may not join.
One thing for sure is if you buy a Caterham you will be made welcome at the WSCC but if you buy a Westfield the Caterham crew may ridicule you into hiding as they some seem to think they are superior.
So does the club make the car? Does the type of car make the experience of owning better of worse?
Personally I don't care as I enjoy every minute of my car and am very grateful to be able to be part of a very friendly CAR club.
I own a Westfield, my brother owns a Caterham but we still remain brothers :-)
Buy what you like and enjoy the type 7 experience of both the car and the relevant club you may or may not join.
One thing for sure is if you buy a Caterham you will be made welcome at the WSCC but if you buy a Westfield the Caterham crew may ridicule you into hiding as they some seem to think they are superior.
So does the club make the car? Does the type of car make the experience of owning better of worse?
Personally I don't care as I enjoy every minute of my car and am very grateful to be able to be part of a very friendly CAR club.
The Surrey jAO for the L7CGB had a Westfield for many years. Hardly "hiding" ?
I could of course point you a dozen or more threads in the Boredroom that have been quite unpleasant (and one on another 7-esque forum that actually laughed at the idea of a Caterham driver being killed, what charming people). Remember Phsstpok or whatever his name was ? Or maybe you are a new guy to all of this (I have been registered on the WSCC fora for quite a while, and even remember when L7C was an email list) ?
So it isn't all one way, although you do have to have your eyes open, rather than being blocked by the large chip on your shoulder, to see that
It is just a bit of fun. Don't take it too seriously.
Several years ago my Westie owning chum got married, I bought a pair of His'n'hers Westfield caps as a present. Mentioned on BC that I had the package doused in bleach before it was allowed to enter the house. Westfield sent me a voucher for 50p off Domestos You would never get CC doing something like that.
I could of course point you a dozen or more threads in the Boredroom that have been quite unpleasant (and one on another 7-esque forum that actually laughed at the idea of a Caterham driver being killed, what charming people). Remember Phsstpok or whatever his name was ? Or maybe you are a new guy to all of this (I have been registered on the WSCC fora for quite a while, and even remember when L7C was an email list) ?
So it isn't all one way, although you do have to have your eyes open, rather than being blocked by the large chip on your shoulder, to see that
It is just a bit of fun. Don't take it too seriously.
Several years ago my Westie owning chum got married, I bought a pair of His'n'hers Westfield caps as a present. Mentioned on BC that I had the package doused in bleach before it was allowed to enter the house. Westfield sent me a voucher for 50p off Domestos
You would never get CC doing something like that.Edited by Noger on Monday 31st March 10:52
I must admit, I've never seen this so called Caterham owners bad attitude towards Westfield. I remember once at a L7C meeting we had a Westfield turn up. There were a few joking comments, but once he'd stopped the engine and got out we all went over to have a look, genuinely interested.One thing does spring to mind after reading the above: an owner approached me in Halfords car park a while ago and asked me if there was a 7 car meeting in the area. He loved his Westfield, but wanted to meet other owners. I'm heartened to read above that there is a Westfield Owner's Club, but I didn't realise there was until I read that. I'm nto sure how good it is, but it's something to bear in mind if you're buying a car I guess?
carpetstu said:
One thing for sure is if you buy a Caterham you will be made welcome at the WSCC but if you buy a Westfield the Caterham crew may ridicule you into hiding as they some seem to think they are superior.
There is a lot of banter knocking about, but none well very very little, of it is serious. Yes, some Caterham owners take the p1ss out of Westfields, but it's nothing different to how some Westfield owners take the p1ss out of Locosts.
I guess if there was a better Seven type car than a Caterham, they'd take the p1ss out of Caterhams too. By the way, Donkeyworts are not better than Caterhams just becasue they are more expensive.
The realtionships between the various Seven type cars is a bit like the old TV sketch with John Cleese and Ronie Barker and Ronnie Corbett
Caterham Owner - I look down on him because he owns a Westfield
Westfield Owner - I look down on him because he owns a Robin Hood
Robin Hood Owner - I shoud've bought a Reliant Robin
Caterham Owner - I look down on him because he owns a Westfield
Westfield Owner - I look down on him because he owns a Robin Hood
Robin Hood Owner - I shoud've bought a Reliant Robin
Hmmmm, would you turn up at a Ferrari Owner's Club meeting in an MR2 with a 355 bodykit? 
I read this comment in the Lotus forum the other day and it sums it up perfectly for me:
I read this comment in the Lotus forum the other day and it sums it up perfectly for me:
village idiot said:
The Westfield is bit like pulling a good-looking tranny whilst pissed in a bar... they look about right, they pretty much make all the right noises, but when it comes to basic fundamentals in the cold light of day, there is something very very wrong with them... sure you can tweak them to get them to handle and feel like a caterham, but in the same way that you chop the knob of a tranny and weld on some tits, it'll never be the same.
does that makes sense?
does that makes sense?
Personally I see it more like pulling a model with big fake titties. Sure a standard model would probably be fantastic, perfectly dumb, stunningly attractive and fun to play with, but a model that has been enhanced since her original design - perfected by a more up-to-date procedure is one notch up IMO.
If any of the 7 esque cars have been built to a high standard then any one could be good. Caterham over Westfield could be put down to badge snobbery, ive seen some cracking westfields and some sh#te caterhams and vise versa. you could say that caterham have a lot of racing experience and development but westfeild have been doing there bit as well.
A well built one of each is going to do the business. If your on the road and occasional track day thus not concerned about squeezing every ounce of performance from each of the parts used in it construction then the levels of performance you will be able to enjoy will be similiar if not identical from a well built and set-up car.
A well built one of each is going to do the business. If your on the road and occasional track day thus not concerned about squeezing every ounce of performance from each of the parts used in it construction then the levels of performance you will be able to enjoy will be similiar if not identical from a well built and set-up car.
sam919 said:
If any of the 7 esque cars have been built to a high standard then any one could be good. Caterham over Westfield could be put down to badge snobbery, ive seen some cracking westfields and some sh#te caterhams and vise versa. you could say that caterham have a lot of racing experience and development but westfeild have been doing there bit as well.
Yes and no. Have heard this argument a lot. Not all 'Seven-alikes' have the same potential to be a good car. Ever see the Robin Hood 'Lightweight' with its revolutionary 'aluminum monocoque' construction? Imagine driving a car with a tinfoil chassis.....A lot of these Seven replicas are just a load of steel tubes bodged together by a man in a shed who's set up as a kit 'manufacturer'. Not all, but many.
People often say that Caterhams cost more because of ""marketing"" ....but that's like saying BMW's cost more than Peugeots because of 'marketing'. Perhaps partially true but as well as being better products BMW also spend a fair bit more on R+D and Motorsport to improve what they sell. Ok, Caterham isn't knocking out cutting edge technology, but by the standards of the kit car industry its much closer to being a 'proper' car maker with the associated professionalism that entails.
To sell Sevens overseas Caterham have had to comply with a lot of homologation/safety stuff as well. They've also been making the same car for 35 years so its a pretty well finished product.
Sorry, but yer man in the shed is just not going to get that same level of finish and performance most of the time. Ok, the owner might fettle the car to be very good but that's not really the same thing as it being good 'out of the box', is it?
Of all the fakes/replicas Westfield seem to be the only ones with a proper R+D programme and they've gone a slightly different direction with all the electric/hybrid stuff and MX5-based kits. Fair play to them. (makes a change from obsessively copying every model, colour scheme, option and bit of branding that Caterham produce anyway
)But when Caterhams regularly return some of the best residuals in the car world, are highly rated by the press and owners, have a solid race championship AND are the real thing with 'the heritage'.........why bother with a second-rate copy that MIGHT be as good if you put a lot of effort in?
Oh yeah, its so that Westie owners can go on internet forums and bang on about how much money they saved (=lost) because they aren't into 'badge snobbery' !
So why are equivilent models of Audi more expensive than a VW and a VW more expensive than a Skoda. You're getting just about the same car in most cases. Comparing a BMW to a Pug isn't sensible - they're completely different cars. Caterhams and Westfields were developed from the same base.
fw500 said:
So why are equivilent models of Audi more expensive than a VW and a VW more expensive than a Skoda. You're getting just about the same car in most cases. Comparing a BMW to a Pug isn't sensible - they're completely different cars. Caterhams and Westfields were developed from the same base.
Not sure I understand your logic here. Caterham and Westfield don't share a common base (chassis?) do they?rubystone said:
fw500 said:
So why are equivilent models of Audi more expensive than a VW and a VW more expensive than a Skoda. You're getting just about the same car in most cases. Comparing a BMW to a Pug isn't sensible - they're completely different cars. Caterhams and Westfields were developed from the same base.
Not sure I understand your logic here. Caterham and Westfield don't share a common base (chassis?) do they? The platform sharing of Audi and VW (or Elise and VX220) is not a relevant analogy. Westfields and Caterhams have totally difference construction, they just superficially look the same. One could just as easily say that the Suzuki Swift is similar to a MINI because they look similar in certain lights and are both monocoque front engined FWD cars; in fact they drive totally differently. One could even change the Swift to look identical to a MINI, but it would never be a MINI. A Westfield is a kit car designed to look like a Caterham, just like the kit cars out there designed to look like Ferraris or Lamborghinis.
As I said before, check out Mark Hales' unbiased review in Circuit Driver. It's unbiased because he doesn't like "Caterfields" as he calls them. The Caterham was the least powerful by far, yet was 2 seconds a lap faster than the next fastest car. It was also much better to drive.
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