Fastest attack of the ring?
Discussion
I'm no expert, but I believe in the late '90s the Superlight R held the production record around the Ring at just under 8mins. A modern R500 could beat that by some seconds one would imagine.
If a Radical turbo is a production car than I think you will be OK with a Caterham. All a comedy really, but good fun.
James
If a Radical turbo is a production car than I think you will be OK with a Caterham. All a comedy really, but good fun.
James
R500 did 7min 55 many many moons ago (robert nearn)
it was great time back then and considering its age, is still an impressive time now
many cars are quicker these days but transfer it all back to a regular UK circuit and a well driven R500 would still smoke them all, GT2's to Zonda F's/Enzos
it was great time back then and considering its age, is still an impressive time now
many cars are quicker these days but transfer it all back to a regular UK circuit and a well driven R500 would still smoke them all, GT2's to Zonda F's/Enzos
So, if the Corvette beat the GTR's prev best of 7:29 by 4 seconds then 7:25 is the target to beat.
Gosh, that's a long way off the 7:55 for the Caterham. Half a minute. I really hadn't realised the game had moved on that far.
What would be needed for Caterham to close-in on that time? Massive amounts of more power? You see I know exactly what you mean about a Caterham smoking most cars on circuits in the UK. I have come up against some seriously powerful cars including a (claimed) 1001bhp Skyline which I lapped Bruntingthorpe about 5 secs a lap quicker in a (then) 210bhp Caterham. It was impressive, all smoking wheels as he exited corners but he still couldn't brake or go round those corners as quickly as I could.
One of those air-cooled GT2 or GT3 Porsches (the ones with the bolt-on wings) was fast though. I reckon he was lapping as quickly as me (we were a half lap apart and never caught each other up), and I've seen a well-driven Noble lap Combe within a second of my own laptimes (until his brake linings disappeared).
But in general, if the Caterham isn't the quickest car out there, it's within a gnat's whisker. However HALF A MINUTE'S difference at the ring seems such an impossibility for Caterham to close-in on.
So, would it be possible? Is it *just* more power that's required, or have the limits of the (old but evolved) design been reached?
Gosh, that's a long way off the 7:55 for the Caterham. Half a minute. I really hadn't realised the game had moved on that far.
What would be needed for Caterham to close-in on that time? Massive amounts of more power? You see I know exactly what you mean about a Caterham smoking most cars on circuits in the UK. I have come up against some seriously powerful cars including a (claimed) 1001bhp Skyline which I lapped Bruntingthorpe about 5 secs a lap quicker in a (then) 210bhp Caterham. It was impressive, all smoking wheels as he exited corners but he still couldn't brake or go round those corners as quickly as I could.
One of those air-cooled GT2 or GT3 Porsches (the ones with the bolt-on wings) was fast though. I reckon he was lapping as quickly as me (we were a half lap apart and never caught each other up), and I've seen a well-driven Noble lap Combe within a second of my own laptimes (until his brake linings disappeared).
But in general, if the Caterham isn't the quickest car out there, it's within a gnat's whisker. However HALF A MINUTE'S difference at the ring seems such an impossibility for Caterham to close-in on.
So, would it be possible? Is it *just* more power that's required, or have the limits of the (old but evolved) design been reached?
a 993 GT2 is bonkers quick
very very rare, only about 50 were built IIRC
probably running around 550bhp but maybe as much as 600bhp, ~1300kg etc..
it may have been a clubsport model as well with race GT2 shell, ali+carbon body, stripped interior, cage, ~1200kg.. basically a proper fill on race GT2 with tweaked geo.
any race GT2 car is perfectly entitled to be a bit quicker than any road going caterham !
very very rare, only about 50 were built IIRC
probably running around 550bhp but maybe as much as 600bhp, ~1300kg etc..
it may have been a clubsport model as well with race GT2 shell, ali+carbon body, stripped interior, cage, ~1200kg.. basically a proper fill on race GT2 with tweaked geo.
any race GT2 car is perfectly entitled to be a bit quicker than any road going caterham !
I was there last month, one of the cars we had there was a Z4m Coupe and this was hitting 150+ a couple of time a lap.
I don't think the caterham will have the aerodynamics to carry the sustained high speed that is necessary to match the current prod car times, having said that though the csr260's could keep with the new Nissan GTR that was also with us.
Dave
I don't think the caterham will have the aerodynamics to carry the sustained high speed that is necessary to match the current prod car times, having said that though the csr260's could keep with the new Nissan GTR that was also with us.
Dave
It all comes down to the type of circuit.
All of the time lost to something like a GTR is on the 100mph+ sections and the ring has many of these. The aerodynamics just are not there and the 7 can't use its acceleration advantage as from memory there is only one 2nd gear corner (Wehrseifen), a handful of 3rd gear corners and then lots and lots and lots of 4th, 5th and 6th gear stuff.
Just think - even a CSR 260 will only touch 140mph up the back hill from Bergwerk - that is in the region of a 35mph disadvantage compared to the Corvet - that is just losing time hand over fist and it is the same story on the dottinger-hohe straight too.
As someone above mentioned - stick them on a UK circuit and the R500 will kill them - an exapmle being that the R500 is over 4 seconds a lap quicker around EVO's test circuit at Bedford which only has 1.8miles of tarmac.
If the circuit was 7 times longer (to match the rings length), but as twisty as this one obviously is, then the R500 would have a 28 second per lap advantage!
It is all horses for courses i guess. All i know is that on a circuit no other car has been as enjoyable as any of my sevens.
Mick
All of the time lost to something like a GTR is on the 100mph+ sections and the ring has many of these. The aerodynamics just are not there and the 7 can't use its acceleration advantage as from memory there is only one 2nd gear corner (Wehrseifen), a handful of 3rd gear corners and then lots and lots and lots of 4th, 5th and 6th gear stuff.
Just think - even a CSR 260 will only touch 140mph up the back hill from Bergwerk - that is in the region of a 35mph disadvantage compared to the Corvet - that is just losing time hand over fist and it is the same story on the dottinger-hohe straight too.
As someone above mentioned - stick them on a UK circuit and the R500 will kill them - an exapmle being that the R500 is over 4 seconds a lap quicker around EVO's test circuit at Bedford which only has 1.8miles of tarmac.
If the circuit was 7 times longer (to match the rings length), but as twisty as this one obviously is, then the R500 would have a 28 second per lap advantage!
It is all horses for courses i guess. All i know is that on a circuit no other car has been as enjoyable as any of my sevens.
Mick
atom-ick said:
I as from memory there is only one 2nd gear corner (Wehrseifen), a handful of 3rd gear corners and then lots and lots and lots of 4th, 5th and 6th gear stuff
Mick - either you're short shifting or running a different ratio in your final drive, as I can only think of a couple of 6th gear points in my SLR (approach to schwedencreuz and going up through kesselchen)!! 
PS to OP - Caterhams are now banned from the VLN races at the Ring as in 2003 they killed cars several classes above them, finishing around 10th/11th overall (IIRC). A bit embarassing if you run an EUR 300k 911RSR!
fergus said:
atom-ick said:
I as from memory there is only one 2nd gear corner (Wehrseifen), a handful of 3rd gear corners and then lots and lots and lots of 4th, 5th and 6th gear stuff
Mick - either you're short shifting or running a different ratio in your final drive, as I can only think of a couple of 6th gear points in my SLR (approach to schwedencreuz and going up through kesselchen)!! PS to OP - Caterhams are now banned from the VLN races at the Ring as in 2003 they killed cars several classes above them, finishing around 10th/11th overall (IIRC). A bit embarassing if you run an EUR 300k 911RSR!
Also, on a non public day there 6th is obviously needed down the Dottinger-hohe straight.
I cant wait to go out there again - didn't do nearly enough laps this year! In the meantime o have been reading my "Kings of the Nurburgring" book that my good lady bought for me - anyone who hasn't read it go out and buy it - it is brilliant!
Without a radical overhaul i don't think any Seven will beat those times....even the Levante or other bonkers-mad powerful variants.
The aerodynamics (or lack of) just don't lend themselves to such a high speed circuit.
A 7:25 full lap of the Nordschleife requires an average speed of 105mph (168.5kmh) by my rough calculations. Sevens just don't excel at 3 figure speeds.
You need big power to haul you up to high speeds out of Bergwerk to Steilstrecke and up the main straight (just those two bits must be 4km-5km of full throttle).
Flat-out up the main straight an R500 would struggle to hit 150mph all-in while all the exotic stuff and Radicals are probably doing 170-180mph.
I v-maxxed a Duratec R400 on the RMA track day earlier in the year and i was struggling to get 140mph (indicated) as the main straight is uphill. A 911 Cup car on slicks came past me at full tilt and it seemed a lot like he was going 100mph faster!!!
The aerodynamics (or lack of) just don't lend themselves to such a high speed circuit.
A 7:25 full lap of the Nordschleife requires an average speed of 105mph (168.5kmh) by my rough calculations. Sevens just don't excel at 3 figure speeds.
You need big power to haul you up to high speeds out of Bergwerk to Steilstrecke and up the main straight (just those two bits must be 4km-5km of full throttle).
Flat-out up the main straight an R500 would struggle to hit 150mph all-in while all the exotic stuff and Radicals are probably doing 170-180mph.
I v-maxxed a Duratec R400 on the RMA track day earlier in the year and i was struggling to get 140mph (indicated) as the main straight is uphill. A 911 Cup car on slicks came past me at full tilt and it seemed a lot like he was going 100mph faster!!!
A CSR 260 Superlight or the new R500 should take a good deal of time off the mark set by the original R500. That time was done in slightly damp conditions, on a pre-production car, only over a few laps, with less power and without sequential. Also I believe Robert is a very useful driver, but I am sure that some of these marks have been set by very serious Nurburgring specialists.
I am sure the original R500 could go round quicker than it did on an ideal day and I am sure the new one with the further refined dampers, sequential box etc., improved aero, more power could go round quicker again.
15-20 seconds quicker?
I am sure the original R500 could go round quicker than it did on an ideal day and I am sure the new one with the further refined dampers, sequential box etc., improved aero, more power could go round quicker again.
15-20 seconds quicker?
The rumour at the time was that Robert thought there to be ITR of 5 secs to come off his best of 7:55.
The CSR will bump the limiter in top on the aproach to SX (155)and will just get 6th through Fuchsrohe, on the aproach to Metzgesfeld and Mutkurve and coming into Schwalbenschwantz but I think the new '500 is geared slightly shorter hitting about 145 flat out so could be interesting as to which would be quicker over the lap.
Must be in the region of 7:35 - 7:40?
The CSR will bump the limiter in top on the aproach to SX (155)and will just get 6th through Fuchsrohe, on the aproach to Metzgesfeld and Mutkurve and coming into Schwalbenschwantz but I think the new '500 is geared slightly shorter hitting about 145 flat out so could be interesting as to which would be quicker over the lap.
Must be in the region of 7:35 - 7:40?
7s are untouchable round corners (excluding downforce cars) but they are slower in top speed terms than some think. I think the 150 mph claim is unrealistic.
I have a very accurate spa speedo on my 7 and I've never seen more than 137.5 mph on it and I was running a 240bhp R101 engine at the time. That was recorded on the kemmel straight in the tow behind a tuned JPE. I don't think the ring offers an opportunity to go faster than that without a tow, so 135 is a more realistic maximum. I think the 'Vette ZR1 touched 184! And that's all there is to it regarding the ring time.
I have a very accurate spa speedo on my 7 and I've never seen more than 137.5 mph on it and I was running a 240bhp R101 engine at the time. That was recorded on the kemmel straight in the tow behind a tuned JPE. I don't think the ring offers an opportunity to go faster than that without a tow, so 135 is a more realistic maximum. I think the 'Vette ZR1 touched 184! And that's all there is to it regarding the ring time.
Kemmel straight? Isn't that at Spa not the 'Ring and very uphill 
Sat nav verified at 154mph on the SX aproach which is downhill.
Agreed, the 'Ring is not the ideal stomping ground for the little Caterham. The power/big speed sections hurt it more now than it can make up in the slightly more technical sections.
Shouldn't we all now log on to this 'Splitwheel' thingy and discuss what's needed to put the Caterham back at the top of the road car lap record charts.
Sat nav verified at 154mph on the SX aproach which is downhill.
Agreed, the 'Ring is not the ideal stomping ground for the little Caterham. The power/big speed sections hurt it more now than it can make up in the slightly more technical sections.
Shouldn't we all now log on to this 'Splitwheel' thingy and discuss what's needed to put the Caterham back at the top of the road car lap record charts.
Yes the Kemmel straight is at Spa and yes it's uphill but the gradient isn't very steep towards the chicane at end of the straight. My point was that I wouldn't expect to see more than a genuine 135mph at the ring unless there was a tow. All of which simply explains why a 7 isn't going to beat a lardy Corvette ZR1 at the ring, even though it could leave it for dead around most short circuits.
The problem with splitwheel idea, even though I'm going to take part is:
The only way forward for Caterham to lap faster is downforce and better aerodynamics. Downforce will produce faster laptimes but less enjoyable, adjustable handling. Better aerodynamics will produce something that looks like a radical and they all look just like any other sports racing prototype.
So if more track performance isn't the goal then more practicality and comfort is another area they could look into. If Caterham's budget can produce anything half as accomplished as the Lotus Elise then fair play to them but it will still be only half as good as a Lotus Elise (yes they really are that good, I own one of them too).
Caterham have carved a great niche out for themselves (no downforce, lightweight trackday/extreme road car) and the niches directly to the left and right of them are very well covered.
As I said I'll be taking part and I wish them luck but I think they're going to need it.
The problem with splitwheel idea, even though I'm going to take part is:
The only way forward for Caterham to lap faster is downforce and better aerodynamics. Downforce will produce faster laptimes but less enjoyable, adjustable handling. Better aerodynamics will produce something that looks like a radical and they all look just like any other sports racing prototype.
So if more track performance isn't the goal then more practicality and comfort is another area they could look into. If Caterham's budget can produce anything half as accomplished as the Lotus Elise then fair play to them but it will still be only half as good as a Lotus Elise (yes they really are that good, I own one of them too).
Caterham have carved a great niche out for themselves (no downforce, lightweight trackday/extreme road car) and the niches directly to the left and right of them are very well covered.
As I said I'll be taking part and I wish them luck but I think they're going to need it.
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