Fastest attack of the ring?
Discussion
The Pits said:
The problem with splitwheel idea, even though I'm going to take part is:
The only way forward for Caterham to lap faster is downforce and better aerodynamics. Downforce will produce faster laptimes but less enjoyable, adjustable handling. Better aerodynamics will produce something that looks like a radical and they all look just like any other sports racing prototype.
So if more track performance isn't the goal then more practicality and comfort is another area they could look into. If Caterham's budget can produce anything half as accomplished as the Lotus Elise then fair play to them but it will still be only half as good as a Lotus Elise (yes they really are that good, I own one of them too).
Caterham have carved a great niche out for themselves (no downforce, lightweight trackday/extreme road car) and the niches directly to the left and right of them are very well covered.
As I said I'll be taking part and I wish them luck but I think they're going to need it.
By inference, you're suggesting that the existing car is so close to perfect that it can't be made to perform significantly better and hence generate significantly faster lap times. This is just not true. Just look at some of the latest entrants to the segment including the Lotus 2-11 and (vastly overpriced) KTM XBow. Both have superior downforce and aero whilst looking distinctive and original. The only way forward for Caterham to lap faster is downforce and better aerodynamics. Downforce will produce faster laptimes but less enjoyable, adjustable handling. Better aerodynamics will produce something that looks like a radical and they all look just like any other sports racing prototype.
So if more track performance isn't the goal then more practicality and comfort is another area they could look into. If Caterham's budget can produce anything half as accomplished as the Lotus Elise then fair play to them but it will still be only half as good as a Lotus Elise (yes they really are that good, I own one of them too).
Caterham have carved a great niche out for themselves (no downforce, lightweight trackday/extreme road car) and the niches directly to the left and right of them are very well covered.
As I said I'll be taking part and I wish them luck but I think they're going to need it.
What is clear is that this process is going to have to produce something very original if it's going to work... I think there will continue to be a good market for the existing line up with the exception of the CSR. The new car might be able to complement the existing car by allowing Caterham to offer the best of both worlds - a good old fashioned aero-less experience, or the full attack g-force defying aero experience with Ring busting lap time potential.
(sorry to go slightly off topic!)
subirg said:
The Pits said:
The problem with splitwheel idea, even though I'm going to take part is:
The only way forward for Caterham to lap faster is downforce and better aerodynamics. Downforce will produce faster laptimes but less enjoyable, adjustable handling. Better aerodynamics will produce something that looks like a radical and they all look just like any other sports racing prototype.
So if more track performance isn't the goal then more practicality and comfort is another area they could look into. If Caterham's budget can produce anything half as accomplished as the Lotus Elise then fair play to them but it will still be only half as good as a Lotus Elise (yes they really are that good, I own one of them too).
Caterham have carved a great niche out for themselves (no downforce, lightweight trackday/extreme road car) and the niches directly to the left and right of them are very well covered.
As I said I'll be taking part and I wish them luck but I think they're going to need it.
By inference, you're suggesting that the existing car is so close to perfect that it can't be made to perform significantly better and hence generate significantly faster lap times. This is just not true. Just look at some of the latest entrants to the segment including the Lotus 2-11 and (vastly overpriced) KTM XBow. Both have superior downforce and aero whilst looking distinctive and original. The only way forward for Caterham to lap faster is downforce and better aerodynamics. Downforce will produce faster laptimes but less enjoyable, adjustable handling. Better aerodynamics will produce something that looks like a radical and they all look just like any other sports racing prototype.
So if more track performance isn't the goal then more practicality and comfort is another area they could look into. If Caterham's budget can produce anything half as accomplished as the Lotus Elise then fair play to them but it will still be only half as good as a Lotus Elise (yes they really are that good, I own one of them too).
Caterham have carved a great niche out for themselves (no downforce, lightweight trackday/extreme road car) and the niches directly to the left and right of them are very well covered.
As I said I'll be taking part and I wish them luck but I think they're going to need it.
What is clear is that this process is going to have to produce something very original if it's going to work... I think there will continue to be a good market for the existing line up with the exception of the CSR. The new car might be able to complement the existing car by allowing Caterham to offer the best of both worlds - a good old fashioned aero-less experience, or the full attack g-force defying aero experience with Ring busting lap time potential.
(sorry to go slightly off topic!)
the old durabang was never very fast at top speed (and I remember for a fact that my old slr refused to accelerate any fruther for a fair stretch of the kemmel straight at spa)
having said that, the preceeding corner exit always made up for it so i don't ever remember any big BHP tintop ever passing me for sheer top speed on a circuit straight. In terms of pure time, you are better off spending more time at ~110-120 and reaching ~130, than starting out at 90 yet eventually reaching ~150. Straights never seem long enough for the car with the bigger top speed to catch up.
that is, except the 700bhp race 996 GT2 at Snet which came past me like a bullet and must have been going 150+
as a footnote I'd like to point out the observation that there is a lot of big BS brandished around on the internet about top speeds. Over-reading speedos are a big part of the problem ... at high speeds it could be out by as much as 20mph. To make 140bhp+ down the Revett straight you need a very very quick car and that rules out a lot of cars that probably thought they were going a lot faster when they glanced down at the speedo.
take a look at this example... not the best driving in the world but a 1.14 lap and a top speed of 153 but here's the catch, the car has around 850bhp and is stripped out and would make anything factory from porsche seem like its standing still, let alone a boggo 911 !
http://www.norrisdesigns.com/videos/snetterton.wmv
also, look at the porsche carerra cup.. these cars are running ~1.07 at snet. Now thats very very quick. Eons quicker than what any production road vehicle could produce, caterham or otherwise. Best time along the straights, 148-152mph ! So any trackday hero (unless he happnes to be john barnes/tim harvey etc..) that tells you he did 150-160mph is more than likely talking out of his behind.
having said that, the preceeding corner exit always made up for it so i don't ever remember any big BHP tintop ever passing me for sheer top speed on a circuit straight. In terms of pure time, you are better off spending more time at ~110-120 and reaching ~130, than starting out at 90 yet eventually reaching ~150. Straights never seem long enough for the car with the bigger top speed to catch up.
that is, except the 700bhp race 996 GT2 at Snet which came past me like a bullet and must have been going 150+
as a footnote I'd like to point out the observation that there is a lot of big BS brandished around on the internet about top speeds. Over-reading speedos are a big part of the problem ... at high speeds it could be out by as much as 20mph. To make 140bhp+ down the Revett straight you need a very very quick car and that rules out a lot of cars that probably thought they were going a lot faster when they glanced down at the speedo.
take a look at this example... not the best driving in the world but a 1.14 lap and a top speed of 153 but here's the catch, the car has around 850bhp and is stripped out and would make anything factory from porsche seem like its standing still, let alone a boggo 911 !
http://www.norrisdesigns.com/videos/snetterton.wmv
also, look at the porsche carerra cup.. these cars are running ~1.07 at snet. Now thats very very quick. Eons quicker than what any production road vehicle could produce, caterham or otherwise. Best time along the straights, 148-152mph ! So any trackday hero (unless he happnes to be john barnes/tim harvey etc..) that tells you he did 150-160mph is more than likely talking out of his behind.
Edited by jackal on Thursday 6th November 18:04
Lotus 2-11 thing ain't that quick.. at Goodwood earlier this year I was lapping in the same time as it in my 190bhp SV. Adrian in his R500 beat it hands down. And Goodwood is a power circuit. I saw 155mph on my speedo,before the speedo drive fell out of the gearbox. However this is only a true 130-135 or so.
c7xlg said:
Lotus 2-11 thing ain't that quick.. at Goodwood earlier this year I was lapping in the same time as it in my 190bhp SV. Adrian in his R500 beat it hands down. And Goodwood is a power circuit. I saw 155mph on my speedo,before the speedo drive fell out of the gearbox. However this is only a true 130-135 or so.
I had an indicated about 140 ish at Goodwood a few years back in my SLR. (1 min 31 lap) - trouble is the dash was vibrating, the number blerring, my nerve rapidly quivering and you dearnt look at the speedo for more than a nano second as youve got an almighty breaking coming up.jackal said:
the old durabang was never very fast at top speed (and I remember for a fact that my old slr refused to accelerate any fruther for a fair stretch of the kemmel straight at spa)
having said that, the preceeding corner exit always made up for it so i don't ever remember any big BHP tintop ever passing me for sheer top speed on a circuit straight. In terms of pure time, you are better off spending more time at ~110-120 and reaching ~130, than starting out at 90 yet eventually reaching ~150. Straights never seem long enough for the car with the bigger top speed to catch up.
that is, except the 700bhp race 996 GT2 at Snet which came past me like a bullet and must have been going 150+
as a footnote I'd like to point out the observation that there is a lot of big BS brandished around on the internet about top speeds. Over-reading speedos are a big part of the problem ... at high speeds it could be out by as much as 20mph. To make 140bhp+ down the Revett straight you need a very very quick car and that rules out a lot of cars that probably thought they were going a lot faster when they glanced down at the speedo.
take a look at this example... not the best driving in the world but a 1.14 lap and a top speed of 153 but here's the catch, the car has around 850bhp and is stripped out and would make anything factory from porsche seem like its standing still, let alone a boggo 911 !
http://www.norrisdesigns.com/videos/snetterton.wmv
also, look at the porsche carerra cup.. these cars are running ~1.07 at snet. Now thats very very quick. Eons quicker than what any production road vehicle could produce, caterham or otherwise. Best time along the straights, 148-152mph ! So any trackday hero (unless he happnes to be john barnes/tim harvey etc..) that tells you he did 150-160mph is more than likely talking out of his behind.
having said that, the preceeding corner exit always made up for it so i don't ever remember any big BHP tintop ever passing me for sheer top speed on a circuit straight. In terms of pure time, you are better off spending more time at ~110-120 and reaching ~130, than starting out at 90 yet eventually reaching ~150. Straights never seem long enough for the car with the bigger top speed to catch up.
that is, except the 700bhp race 996 GT2 at Snet which came past me like a bullet and must have been going 150+
as a footnote I'd like to point out the observation that there is a lot of big BS brandished around on the internet about top speeds. Over-reading speedos are a big part of the problem ... at high speeds it could be out by as much as 20mph. To make 140bhp+ down the Revett straight you need a very very quick car and that rules out a lot of cars that probably thought they were going a lot faster when they glanced down at the speedo.
take a look at this example... not the best driving in the world but a 1.14 lap and a top speed of 153 but here's the catch, the car has around 850bhp and is stripped out and would make anything factory from porsche seem like its standing still, let alone a boggo 911 !
http://www.norrisdesigns.com/videos/snetterton.wmv
also, look at the porsche carerra cup.. these cars are running ~1.07 at snet. Now thats very very quick. Eons quicker than what any production road vehicle could produce, caterham or otherwise. Best time along the straights, 148-152mph ! So any trackday hero (unless he happnes to be john barnes/tim harvey etc..) that tells you he did 150-160mph is more than likely talking out of his behind.
Edited by jackal on Thursday 6th November 18:04
But don't forget that the Carrera Cup cars are running huge slicks and are bound to get some appreciable downforce from those massive rear wings and front splitters, so a lot of the lap time comes from cornering grip. That's the case with most racing cars really (for instance the FRenault I'll be racing next year would obliterate an R500 round a race track, yet only has about half the power/weight ratio). I was given a go in a completely road standard Noble M400 at Bedford and a nannying instructor prevented me from going anywhere near race pace, and even so I manged to redline in 5th gear, which if you do the maths is 159mph. That straight's similar to the Revett straight at Snet in length I think?So usually the story is that road cars have equal or even higher top speeds than racing cars, but the racing cars are almost always streets ahead on lap times simply due to their cornering and braking prowess.
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