Top Gear - Stiggy and the R500
Discussion
Furyblade_Lee said:
Isn't there somebody on the Caterham forum who has a seriously fast Caterham that pulls the pants down of an R500? Cant think of his name off the top of my head. How fast do you think that would lap?
yep, dannys 2.3 had >300bhp last count with the engine built by AMMOoriginal car built by mic
its the fastest timed quarter mile car (ignoring dave edmunds)
big power doesn't necessarily mean quick laps though
in fact the fastest caterham i've ever come across was Brodie Branch's which was 'busa powered
it was at Brands and I was going round in ~53 secs and he overtook me through paddock ! So he must have been 52,51secs which is mighty quick for a trackday and a car that has less than 200bhp !
jackal said:
Furyblade_Lee said:
Isn't there somebody on the Caterham forum who has a seriously fast Caterham that pulls the pants down of an R500? Cant think of his name off the top of my head. How fast do you think that would lap?
yep, dannys 2.3 had >300bhp last count with the engine built by AMMOoriginal car built by mic
its the fastest timed quarter mile car (ignoring dave edmunds)
big power doesn't necessarily mean quick laps though
in fact the fastest caterham i've ever come across was Brodie Branch's which was 'busa powered
it was at Brands and I was going round in ~53 secs and he overtook me through paddock ! So he must have been 52,51secs which is mighty quick for a trackday and a car that has less than 200bhp !
For example RSA 120BHP laps high 53's, and C400 with 230BHP very low 51's both with the same CR500 tyres (okay C400 has slightly wider rears).
http://www.tsl-timing.com/brscc/2008/84231.pdf
I would expect round brands the R500 to just about edge under 50 seconds in the right hands. God knows what a 300BHP one would do!
pw75 said:
jackal said:
Furyblade_Lee said:
Isn't there somebody on the Caterham forum who has a seriously fast Caterham that pulls the pants down of an R500? Cant think of his name off the top of my head. How fast do you think that would lap?
yep, dannys 2.3 had >300bhp last count with the engine built by AMMOoriginal car built by mic
its the fastest timed quarter mile car (ignoring dave edmunds)
big power doesn't necessarily mean quick laps though
in fact the fastest caterham i've ever come across was Brodie Branch's which was 'busa powered
it was at Brands and I was going round in ~53 secs and he overtook me through paddock ! So he must have been 52,51secs which is mighty quick for a trackday and a car that has less than 200bhp !
For example RSA 120BHP laps high 53's, and C400 with 230BHP very low 51's both with the same CR500 tyres (okay C400 has slightly wider rears).
http://www.tsl-timing.com/brscc/2008/84231.pdf
I would expect round brands the R500 to just about edge under 50 seconds in the right hands. God knows what a 300BHP one would do!
The cornering speeds are all very similar between the different Caterhams, but obviously the high powered car will make up a lot of time on the straights. You can see this from the Speed Traps -the fastest RSA guys are doing 91mph through the speed trap and the fastest C400s are doing 106mph. For comparison, Autocar got a totally road standard mk1 R500 round Brands Indy in about 51s I think.Oh, and out of interest, there was a factory 300bhp Caterham. It was tuned by Caterham's swiss importer and known as the "S7 Competition R".
pw75 said:
jackal said:
Furyblade_Lee said:
Isn't there somebody on the Caterham forum who has a seriously fast Caterham that pulls the pants down of an R500? Cant think of his name off the top of my head. How fast do you think that would lap?
yep, dannys 2.3 had >300bhp last count with the engine built by AMMOoriginal car built by mic
its the fastest timed quarter mile car (ignoring dave edmunds)
big power doesn't necessarily mean quick laps though
in fact the fastest caterham i've ever come across was Brodie Branch's which was 'busa powered
it was at Brands and I was going round in ~53 secs and he overtook me through paddock ! So he must have been 52,51secs which is mighty quick for a trackday and a car that has less than 200bhp !
For example RSA 120BHP laps high 53's, and C400 with 230BHP very low 51's both with the same CR500 tyres (okay C400 has slightly wider rears).
http://www.tsl-timing.com/brscc/2008/84231.pdf
I would expect round brands the R500 to just about edge under 50 seconds in the right hands. God knows what a 300BHP one would do!
on slicks and on a race day with setup yes and a very good driver
but not a trackday with CR500's and monkey setup !
theoretically yes, a 300bhp caterham will be quicker than a 250bhp car providing the driveability isn't compromised (once saw a 330bhp turbo cossie 7 and it was slower than asuperlight !) and providing the weight and weight distribution isn't compromised. But honestly, in my opinion, not by much. 50bhp wont make a great deal of difference. Power never does.
and as for 'real life' (as opposed to theory). Well 300bhp+ pundits are very often the sorts of people who arent that quick (obviously). So a blisteringly quick 300,350,400bhp caterham is not something thats a common or known phenomenon. Maybe someone else has more experience but from memory all the big BHP caterhams ive ever come across (in 6 years of cat trackdays) weren't quick. But hey, we are talking about trackdays where the pace is woefully slow even by amateur club standards so its rare to see a quick anything.
to answer your original question though.. i think adidng another 50,60,70bhp to an R500 wouldnt automatically make the lap much much quicker. If you COULD iron out all associated nasties/drawbacks then yes, 0-100mph will be quicker acceleration wise but not really by THAT much and as for top speed, both cars have to hit the big brick wall so the law of diminishing returns kicks in there and the ectra BHP probably makes even less of a difference.
the reason to have 300bhp though is for more fun and instant tail out action in any gear, any time, any bend. Thats what dannys car is like and amazing because of it. But if you want to lap quickly and learn the car to 10/10ths... then honestly, 200-250bhp is the sweet spot. Don't bother paying a whole heap more for more aggro, more wheelspin, more gearbox issues etc..
Edited by jackal on Tuesday 16th December 21:41
a bike engined caterham is much lighter so needs less power to accelerate as quickly. It will also make a gain on corners and brakes. A vauxhall powered one on the other hand has an anvil stuck to the bonnet so may accelerate quickly butloses on brakes and corners. A300 hp duratec should in theorybe quicker than the r500 butthen again, thewrong gearing for the circuit can always go against it. Mybet for a quick lap would be a 250 hp bike engined one on wider Tyres. But let's face it. Unless you are racing, the lap time means nothing.
jackal said:
pw75 said:
jackal said:
Furyblade_Lee said:
Isn't there somebody on the Caterham forum who has a seriously fast Caterham that pulls the pants down of an R500? Cant think of his name off the top of my head. How fast do you think that would lap?
yep, dannys 2.3 had >300bhp last count with the engine built by AMMOoriginal car built by mic
its the fastest timed quarter mile car (ignoring dave edmunds)
big power doesn't necessarily mean quick laps though
in fact the fastest caterham i've ever come across was Brodie Branch's which was 'busa powered
it was at Brands and I was going round in ~53 secs and he overtook me through paddock ! So he must have been 52,51secs which is mighty quick for a trackday and a car that has less than 200bhp !
For example RSA 120BHP laps high 53's, and C400 with 230BHP very low 51's both with the same CR500 tyres (okay C400 has slightly wider rears).
http://www.tsl-timing.com/brscc/2008/84231.pdf
I would expect round brands the R500 to just about edge under 50 seconds in the right hands. God knows what a 300BHP one would do!
on slicks and on a race day with setup yes and a very good driver
but not a trackday with CR500's and monkey setup !
theoretically yes, a 300bhp caterham will be quicker than a 250bhp car providing the driveability isn't compromised (once saw a 330bhp turbo cossie 7 and it was slower than asuperlight !) and providing the weight and weight distribution isn't compromised. But honestly, in my opinion, not by much. 50bhp wont make a great deal of difference. Power never does.
and as for 'real life' (as opposed to theory). Well 300bhp+ pundits are very often the sorts of people who arent that quick (obviously). So a blisteringly quick 300,350,400bhp caterham is not something thats a common or known phenomenon. Maybe someone else has more experience but from memory all the big BHP caterhams ive ever come across (in 6 years of cat trackdays) weren't quick. But hey, we are talking about trackdays where the pace is woefully slow even by amateur club standards so its rare to see a quick anything.
to answer your original question though.. i think adidng another 50,60,70bhp to an R500 wouldnt automatically make the lap much much quicker. If you COULD iron out all associated nasties/drawbacks then yes, 0-100mph will be quicker acceleration wise but not really by THAT much and as for top speed, both cars have to hit the big brick wall so the law of diminishing returns kicks in there and the ectra BHP probably makes even less of a difference.
the reason to have 300bhp though is for more fun and instant tail out action in any gear, any time, any bend. Thats what dannys car is like and amazing because of it. But if you want to lap quickly and learn the car to 10/10ths... then honestly, 200-250bhp is the sweet spot. Don't bother paying a whole heap more for more aggro, more wheelspin, more gearbox issues etc..
Edited by jackal on Tuesday 16th December 21:41
Done one of those and had a 911 turbo who was amazingly quick in a straight line but little else. Proved at times a very frustrating day. Still a lot of fun learning the track though.
Theres a surprising ammount of corner time at brands hatch so assuming the tyres are CR500's I can't see how you could get around under 50sec by any worthy margin. The issue is as you give it 300bhp ish to make the straights shorter it will take longer to get out of the corner because of the power but the entry and mid corner will stay the same and the chances are the braking will be even harder to judge for their optimum. Now you could counter most of this with some seriously trick dampers.....
....However, stick a set of decent slicks set up accordingly on a 120bhp RSA and you'll see a 1.5 second gain around the Indy easy I recon. Would'nt work quite so well on a narrow track car however.
....However, stick a set of decent slicks set up accordingly on a 120bhp RSA and you'll see a 1.5 second gain around the Indy easy I recon. Would'nt work quite so well on a narrow track car however.
Croft road tyres;
Roadsports = 1.42
Supergrad = 1.36
Megagrad = 1.34
300hp = 1.28
300hp on slicks = Pritchard 1.25
Knockhill road tyres;
Roadsports = 1.03
Supergrad = 1.01
Megas = .59
300hp = .56
300hp on slicks = Pritchard .52
300hp is a different beast altogether, with the low down torque at low revs through corners you can keep it away from the power band higher up before exit, oversteer/ understeer are still present but can be delt with a steady foot.
Bike sports cars can get into the 1.29 around croft and certainly kepp up with the 300hp cars through the corners but on the straights the 300's are awesome and leave a lot of the grid behind.
Roadsports = 1.42
Supergrad = 1.36
Megagrad = 1.34
300hp = 1.28
300hp on slicks = Pritchard 1.25
Knockhill road tyres;
Roadsports = 1.03
Supergrad = 1.01
Megas = .59
300hp = .56
300hp on slicks = Pritchard .52
300hp is a different beast altogether, with the low down torque at low revs through corners you can keep it away from the power band higher up before exit, oversteer/ understeer are still present but can be delt with a steady foot.
Bike sports cars can get into the 1.29 around croft and certainly kepp up with the 300hp cars through the corners but on the straights the 300's are awesome and leave a lot of the grid behind.
The comments about trackdays being woefully slow even by amateur standards made me chuckle! That seems a bit belittling the many trackday drivers who just happen not to race because they cannot afford to. I know lots of my mates who do trackdays with me are 750mc racers (current and ex) and Elise trophy racers, I wouldn't describe them as exactly woefully slow..... and most are no faster than I am. We regularly do 53 / 54 second laps round Brands on trackdays, bearing in mind you are not allowed to drift or spin in case you are black flagged. Just because someone does their ARDS doesnt suddenly shave a second or two of their laptimes, or suddenly make them driving Gods.
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