Top Gear - Stiggy and the R500

[jackal]

Furyblade_Lee said:

The comments about trackdays being woefully slow even by amateur standards made me chuckle! That seems a bit belittling the many trackday drivers who just happen not to race because they cannot afford to. I know lots of my mates who do trackdays with me are 750mc racers (current and ex) and Elise trophy racers, I wouldn't describe them as exactly woefully slow..... and most are no faster than I am. We regularly do 53 / 54 second laps round Brands on trackdays, bearing in mind you are not allowed to drift or spin in case you are black flagged. Just because someone does their ARDS doesnt suddenly shave a second or two of their laptimes, or suddenly make them driving Gods.

sorry, obviously didn't mean everyone.. of course there are exceptions
nothing personal to you and your mates etc..

I know poeple who I think are quick as well but generally speaking, when you look at percentages, I stand by what I said originally

[rubystone]

Furyblade_Lee said:

Andrew Walsh may beg to differ!

Next year will be interesting in that series....my money's on Walshy....

[RobM77]

jackal said:

Furyblade_Lee said:

The comments about trackdays being woefully slow even by amateur standards made me chuckle! That seems a bit belittling the many trackday drivers who just happen not to race because they cannot afford to. I know lots of my mates who do trackdays with me are 750mc racers (current and ex) and Elise trophy racers, I wouldn't describe them as exactly woefully slow..... and most are no faster than I am. We regularly do 53 / 54 second laps round Brands on trackdays, bearing in mind you are not allowed to drift or spin in case you are black flagged. Just because someone does their ARDS doesnt suddenly shave a second or two of their laptimes, or suddenly make them driving Gods.

sorry, obviously didn't mean everyone.. of course there are exceptions
nothing personal to you and your mates etc..

I know poeple who I think are quick as well but generally speaking, when you look at percentages, I stand by what I said originally

I agree with Jackal. Lee's right, doing your ARDS test and getting a racing license doesn't make you quicker, no. However, most people are of the belief that they're a really good/fast driver, so when they reach their own personal limit (which might be quite low!), they think that's "the" limit and as fast as their car will go, and happily drive at that speed on track days impressing their friends for year after year. It's only when someone gets a stopwatch out in a competition that you realise there's room for improvement (and there almost always is - almost no-one wins their first race) and start using your competitiveness to force and obsess yourself into thinking about ways to go faster. Someone that just turns up and drives round a track all day as one does on a track day won't generally become fast - they'll just drive round enjoying themselves ten times a year and leave it at that. What makes someone fast is going to bed on Saturday night knowing that they've got a second to find off their qualifying time before the race the next day and agonising over how to find that second. They might start thinking about exact braking points, turn in points, balancing the car etc; they might pour over the telemetry; or they might seek out coaching. If you do that on a weekly basis for years then that's what makes people fast. Experienced racers are not necessarily super brainy, super fast reacting, fearless etc etc; it's not in-born, we're just total geeks that measure our performance regularly and get obsessed trying to improve it. To use a good analogy, the fact that I go swimming twice a week, cycling three times a week and running five times a week does [i]not[i/] make me a superb sportsman, I'm a total amateur and that's that - I'd have my arse well and truly whipped even at a children's triathlon . Motor racing I obsess over, and that's the difference.

[jackal]

and therein also lies the observation that it's very hard to get properly quick on a trackday even if you do have all the ability... the incentive is just not there, there are novices and coporate day drivers and instructers out with you, and the overall spirit and atmosphere of trackdays is - quite rightly - to have a bit of fun and enjoy yourself. If you are trying to shave metres off your braking points, pushing for that last tenth, secretly timing etc.. then you really shouldn't have turned up. Your attitude and focus will never be as intense or determined as a proper race or test day. So it kind of goes back to my point about someone suggesting that a caterham of some sort should be doing sub 50 at brands. The idea is a bit preposterous on a trackday..... 250bhp, 300bhp or otherwise.

[RobM77]

jackal said:

and therein also lies the observation that it's very hard to get properly quick on a trackday even if you do have all the ability... the incentive is just not there, there are novices and coporate day drivers and instructers out with you, and the overall spirit and atmosphere of trackdays is - quite rightly - to have a bit of fun and enjoy yourself. If you are trying to shave metres off your braking points, pushing for that last tenth, secretly timing etc.. then you really shouldn't have turned up. Your attitude and focus will never be as intense or determined as a proper race or test day. So it kind of goes back to my point about someone suggesting that a caterham of some sort should be doing sub 50 at brands. The idea is a bit preposterous on a trackday..... 250bhp, 300bhp or otherwise.

1) There's simply no feedback (i.e. timing or telemetry) on a track day to create a learning loop to improve from. How is anyone supposed to become a fast driver if they never know whether what they've tried works or not?

2) It's hard to improve without competition pushing you. Compare physical training with a personal trainer shouting at you to doing it on your own for a good example.

From both the above, the most a track day driver will ever do is learn to drive swiftly and safely and have fun, which is the whole point of track days isn't it? If you're more serious than that, then take an ARDS test for a couple of hundred quid and go to test days, where you can time yourself and start learning how to drive fast, it's so easy and cheap that it's a choice, not a privilege.

[RMac]

But I passed an Elise on my last track day which must mean I am well fast..

[sam919]

RobM77 said:

jackal said:

and therein also lies the observation that it's very hard to get properly quick on a trackday even if you do have all the ability... the incentive is just not there, there are novices and coporate day drivers and instructers out with you, and the overall spirit and atmosphere of trackdays is - quite rightly - to have a bit of fun and enjoy yourself. If you are trying to shave metres off your braking points, pushing for that last tenth, secretly timing etc.. then you really shouldn't have turned up. Your attitude and focus will never be as intense or determined as a proper race or test day. So it kind of goes back to my point about someone suggesting that a caterham of some sort should be doing sub 50 at brands. The idea is a bit preposterous on a trackday..... 250bhp, 300bhp or otherwise.

1) There's simply no feedback (i.e. timing or telemetry) on a track day to create a learning loop to improve from. How is anyone supposed to become a fast driver if they never know whether what they've tried works or not?

2) It's hard to improve without competition pushing you. Compare physical training with a personal trainer shouting at you to doing it on your own for a good example.

From both the above, the most a track day driver will ever do is learn to drive swiftly and safely and have fun, which is the whole point of track days isn't it? If you're more serious than that, then take an ARDS test for a couple of hundred quid and go to test days, where you can time yourself and start learning how to drive fast, it's so easy and cheap that it's a choice, not a privilege.

I race, do test days and do track days. And they all offer a different learning curve. In a trackdays defence you can get to know a track you havent been on before a test day/ race.
If its wet and things are generaly slower for all the days tend to have less drivers on which is the perfect oportunity to drive in a different potentially difficult condition, make space for yourself and have a couple of good laps. Fair enough tyre temps etc might not be upto scratch.
One of the greatest advantages over any other driver is having more time on the track, more time in the car in any form, getting to know your car.
A good point though, an ARDS test would open up a whole load more track time in the form of test days and races even if you manage one a year.

[RobM77]

sam919 said:

RobM77 said:

jackal said:

and therein also lies the observation that it's very hard to get properly quick on a trackday even if you do have all the ability... the incentive is just not there, there are novices and coporate day drivers and instructers out with you, and the overall spirit and atmosphere of trackdays is - quite rightly - to have a bit of fun and enjoy yourself. If you are trying to shave metres off your braking points, pushing for that last tenth, secretly timing etc.. then you really shouldn't have turned up. Your attitude and focus will never be as intense or determined as a proper race or test day. So it kind of goes back to my point about someone suggesting that a caterham of some sort should be doing sub 50 at brands. The idea is a bit preposterous on a trackday..... 250bhp, 300bhp or otherwise.

1) There's simply no feedback (i.e. timing or telemetry) on a track day to create a learning loop to improve from. How is anyone supposed to become a fast driver if they never know whether what they've tried works or not?

2) It's hard to improve without competition pushing you. Compare physical training with a personal trainer shouting at you to doing it on your own for a good example.

From both the above, the most a track day driver will ever do is learn to drive swiftly and safely and have fun, which is the whole point of track days isn't it? If you're more serious than that, then take an ARDS test for a couple of hundred quid and go to test days, where you can time yourself and start learning how to drive fast, it's so easy and cheap that it's a choice, not a privilege.

I race, do test days and do track days. And they all offer a different learning curve. In a trackdays defence you can get to know a track you havent been on before a test day/ race.
If its wet and things are generaly slower for all the days tend to have less drivers on which is the perfect oportunity to drive in a different potentially difficult condition, make space for yourself and have a couple of good laps. Fair enough tyre temps etc might not be upto scratch.
One of the greatest advantages over any other driver is having more time on the track, more time in the car in any form, getting to know your car.
A good point though, an ARDS test would open up a whole load more track time in the form of test days and races even if you manage one a year.

I completely agree, although on test days you don't have the overtaking restrictions, and also most drivers learn a track to the point where they want to see lap times and improve their times within only about ten laps.

I tell you one thing though, which isn't really relevant to this discussion: I love track days because I read heaps of car magazines and it's great to see the cars that I read about on track to watch them perform. I'd far rather follow the new M3 or 911 on a fast lap than just another racing Caterham, Radical or single seater etc - I find it more interesting to see a road car in an alien environment and see how it copes.

[Noger]

Despite winning the TG car of the year, in the Sunday Times JC says he wouldn't have one, even if the only other option was "having his left testicle removed"

[Furyblade_Lee]

I dont get the looking stupid driving a Caterham theory. Bottom line is, you don't look stupid. Whenever i see someone in a Caterham or good Kit Car I think, yeah, that guy likes his driving and knows his stuff. I am a fan of JC, but does he dress in the dark or something? I would be more embarressed living in faded jeans and dodgy blazers than be seen tooling around in a fire spitting R500. He is not always right.

[Furyblade_Lee]

And i doubt he needs his testicles anymore anyway.

[Dave J]

the point being - if he had his left testicle removed he wouldnt have any testicles remaining

[DougBaker]

Furyblade_Lee said:

I dont get the looking stupid driving a Caterham theory. Bottom line is, you don't look stupid. Whenever i see someone in a Caterham or good Kit Car I think, yeah, that guy likes his driving and knows his stuff. I am a fan of JC, but does he dress in the dark or something? I would be more embarressed living in faded jeans and dodgy blazers than be seen tooling around in a fire spitting R500. He is not always right.

Good to see there are some car geeks who are still in denial

[lord summerisle]

Noger said:

Despite winning the TG car of the year, in the Sunday Times JC says he wouldn't have one, even if the only other option was "having his left testicle removed"

Been there, done that. i'll have the caterham thanks.