Advice for a newbie: old Caterham or old Westfield?
Discussion
I'm not sure if Westfield is a sensitive subject here, so forgive me in advance 
Let me start by saying that I am very much new to the world of 7, and even though I admired these cars since I can remember, only recently I started taking deeper interest. So much, in fact, that I definitely want one
I live in Finland, and even though it's possible to bring a car like 7 here, it's extremely difficult if the car is 1992 or newer. So that's my limit. I would also draw a line at £8-9k. Of course the amount of 7-enthusiasts here is quite limited, so unique spare parts must be easily available on ebay or webstores. Decent weather protection (as much as it's possible with 7) is also quite important I don't plan to tune or modify it extensively, and it wouldn't see the track too often. So mostly a road car.
As much as I've gathered, pre-lit Westies are 1988 and older, close to Caterhams, but probably not ideal for me due to rarity and problems with spares? Post-lit Westies.. well, I don't know much about them. Is the rear suspension any better than De Dion? Are the other major differences?
Caterham would be great, and if I stretch the budget it seems I might even get an early k-engined car, but the crossflow will be just fine. Caterham is roughly twice the price though, is there any particular reason, why I definitely want a Caterham over a Westfield in addition to the "7"-grille?
Let me start by saying that I am very much new to the world of 7, and even though I admired these cars since I can remember, only recently I started taking deeper interest. So much, in fact, that I definitely want one
I live in Finland, and even though it's possible to bring a car like 7 here, it's extremely difficult if the car is 1992 or newer. So that's my limit. I would also draw a line at £8-9k. Of course the amount of 7-enthusiasts here is quite limited, so unique spare parts must be easily available on ebay or webstores. Decent weather protection (as much as it's possible with 7) is also quite important
I don't plan to tune or modify it extensively, and it wouldn't see the track too often. So mostly a road car.As much as I've gathered, pre-lit Westies are 1988 and older, close to Caterhams, but probably not ideal for me due to rarity and problems with spares? Post-lit Westies.. well, I don't know much about them. Is the rear suspension any better than De Dion? Are the other major differences?
Caterham would be great, and if I stretch the budget it seems I might even get an early k-engined car, but the crossflow will be just fine. Caterham is roughly twice the price though, is there any particular reason, why I definitely want a Caterham over a Westfield in addition to the "7"-grille?
It would be worth having a look at this website: http://people.fishpool.fi/~setok/7/
Kristoffer is well known in the Lotus 7 club.
£7-8k will get you a decent pre-1992 crossflow powered car.
Everyone in this section will be biased towards Caterham of course. There is more mainstream support for them and the quality of design is better.
Kristoffer is well known in the Lotus 7 club.
£7-8k will get you a decent pre-1992 crossflow powered car.
Everyone in this section will be biased towards Caterham of course. There is more mainstream support for them and the quality of design is better.
Go Caterham if you can without question. They are more expensive partly because they are made from metal and alloy not metal and fibre glass and also with all due respect to Westfields, on the whole they handle better to.
I've been fortunate to drive many Westfields and many more Caterhams in my time and there really is no comparison between the two other than a glancing similarity in looks.
I've been fortunate to drive many Westfields and many more Caterhams in my time and there really is no comparison between the two other than a glancing similarity in looks.
I have had Westfield and am happy with it. When looking, found the wide body more confortable for my size.
Handling. I can not comment on Caterham as I have not owned one, but they are reputed to be good/better? But a well set up Westfield is a capable drive too. However due to the adjustability of both cars, note that a badly set up Caterham, will drive as badly as, a badly set up Westfield.
Comparing spec of previously owned cars, the Westfield will be cheaper, or to rephrase that, you will be able to get a better/more modern spec for your budget.
If going for a Westfield, I would try to find a wide body with independant suspension.
However if it is a Caterham/Lotus that you want, get one and you will not be disappointed.
Equally, if it is a Caterham/Lotus that you want, if you buy a Westfield, will 'you' be able to get over the fact that you have bought a Westfield, not a Caterham brand.
As stated, I am happy with my Westfield as, for my given budget. I have been able to aquire a car with a higher spec engine. With my budget I could have a reasonable Caterham, but I chose not to. I am happy with the handling both on trackdays and on the road, and it's a size more suitable for me (6foot 2).
Being in Finland though, you might want to check which car is going to be easier to maintain, for parts etc.
I have tried to be write constructively, to avoid offending owners or either brand.
Handling. I can not comment on Caterham as I have not owned one, but they are reputed to be good/better? But a well set up Westfield is a capable drive too. However due to the adjustability of both cars, note that a badly set up Caterham, will drive as badly as, a badly set up Westfield.
Comparing spec of previously owned cars, the Westfield will be cheaper, or to rephrase that, you will be able to get a better/more modern spec for your budget.
If going for a Westfield, I would try to find a wide body with independant suspension.
However if it is a Caterham/Lotus that you want, get one and you will not be disappointed.
Equally, if it is a Caterham/Lotus that you want, if you buy a Westfield, will 'you' be able to get over the fact that you have bought a Westfield, not a Caterham brand.
As stated, I am happy with my Westfield as, for my given budget. I have been able to aquire a car with a higher spec engine. With my budget I could have a reasonable Caterham, but I chose not to. I am happy with the handling both on trackdays and on the road, and it's a size more suitable for me (6foot 2).
Being in Finland though, you might want to check which car is going to be easier to maintain, for parts etc.
I have tried to be write constructively, to avoid offending owners or either brand.
Simon Mason said:
Go Caterham if you can without question. They are more expensive partly because they are made from metal and alloy not metal and fibre glass and also with all due respect to Westfields, on the whole they handle better to.
I've owned both Caterhams and Westfields. My opinion (for what it's worth - and bear in mind that this being the Caterham forum, you're generally going to get a heavy bias toward Caterhams):The Caterham has much better quality of detailing, but the alloy bodywork can be a double-edged sword. It looks nicer, but it is more prone to corrosion, worsened by the effects of galvanic corrosion where the alloy and steel are rivetted to each other. This will be a particularly important consideration if you are looking for older cars.
Caterhams have better steering feel, but for road use a properly set-up Westfield SEi (ie. the independent rear suspension version) actually has better ride and handling than the Caterham. Even with the de Dion version of the Caterham, sprung:unspung weight ratio gets pretty unfavourable when you're talking about such light cars, and this shows; it's possible to set up the Westfield to be softer and more compliant, giving better ride and more predictable grip than the Caterham. The Caterham, by necessity, needs to be set up a bit stiffer to control the mass of the live axle/de Dion bouncing around at the back, so it isn't as good on imperfect road surfaces.
On a nice, smooth race track, of course, the Westfield loses its advantage, so it depends on the balance of track vs. road use you're anticipating.
Live axle Westfields handle very much the same as live axle Caterhams, though the Caterham retains the edge in terms of steering feel.
Personally, I fit just fine into both Caterham and narrow-body Westfields (despite being a fat b
d), and I find the wide-body Westfield isn't as 'snug' but you probably need to try them both for size before deciding....and as Nike says, you will get a much better specification for your money from the Westfield.
Edited by Sam_68 on Thursday 11th December 12:41
I've owned a 1985 ally bodied Westfield, a 1999 Caterham and I'm currently rebuilding a 1977 Caterham.
All were live axle.
Handling pretty similar, though the Westfield had utterly dead steering.
The Westfield had wonderful thick powder coating on the chassis, which looked like it would last forever. The Caterham chassis were both much more susceptible to rust.
The quality of the finish on my ally bodied Westie was really very good and the car seemed to be just as well built as my 1977 Caterham.
Some of the later fibreglass bodied Westfields that I have seen have been pretty rough compared to a modern Caterham.
The main issue for me is space. I simply don't fit in the early short cockpit Caterhams. My 1977 car is being treated to a long cockpit and lowered floor modification to make it fit properly.
I'd look for the most recent Caterham that you can get imported. That should get you a long cockpit crossflow engined car, which is a much more practical proposition than my 1977 short cockpit Seven.
Also look out for "Q" plated cars. I have heard of someone who has tried, but failed to get one registered in his homeland, which I'm sure was somewhere in Scandinavia.
Here are some pics of mine:
1985 Westfield:
1999 Caterham:
1977 Caterham:
All were live axle.
Handling pretty similar, though the Westfield had utterly dead steering.
The Westfield had wonderful thick powder coating on the chassis, which looked like it would last forever. The Caterham chassis were both much more susceptible to rust.
The quality of the finish on my ally bodied Westie was really very good and the car seemed to be just as well built as my 1977 Caterham.
Some of the later fibreglass bodied Westfields that I have seen have been pretty rough compared to a modern Caterham.
The main issue for me is space. I simply don't fit in the early short cockpit Caterhams. My 1977 car is being treated to a long cockpit and lowered floor modification to make it fit properly.
I'd look for the most recent Caterham that you can get imported. That should get you a long cockpit crossflow engined car, which is a much more practical proposition than my 1977 short cockpit Seven.
Also look out for "Q" plated cars. I have heard of someone who has tried, but failed to get one registered in his homeland, which I'm sure was somewhere in Scandinavia.
Here are some pics of mine:
1985 Westfield:
1999 Caterham:
1977 Caterham:
Oh man, don't tease me with pictures I have at least half a year before I can start seriously searching for an example I want.
I have at least half a year before I can start seriously searching for an example I want.Pat H said:
The main issue for me is space. I simply don't fit in the early short cockpit Caterhams. My 1977 car is being treated to a long cockpit and lowered floor modification to make it fit properly.
That is a good point which I missed completely so far. I've never even sat in any 7, and it's likely that I will not see the car that I will eventually choose before it's delivered, so now I'm getting concerned about how well it will suit me. Are the seats generally adjustable in Caterhams of that age?From a totally none biased viewpoint (owned and ran 3 Westfields, driven many Caterhams), I'll give the same answer I always give when asked this question: Caterhams are, on the whole, a snap together car made from all new bits. You get the thing home and assemble into a known quantity. Westfields, though less so these days, are more of a kit car in that more of it is open to the builders interpretation (for better or worse). Other makes out there, (Sylva/Fisher and the like), even more so and you're going to be fabricating your own parts for those.
With a Caterham, you know what you're getting from the spec and the variations between one SLR and another will be very small. Overall the consistency of the builds is very, very good. Westfields can be much more variable, there are absolutely exceptional ones out there, and if you know what you're doing, you can pick one up that's every bit as good as a Caterham. But you do need to know what to look for. The same goes again but moreso for the Sylvas of this world. These things win race series for a reason. The thing being there will also be a lot of sheds around. That's not to say there are no Caterham sheds, there are, there are just less of them.
With my own money I seem to always come back to Westies. The standard Caterham is slightly too small for my fat arse and the SV is just enormous. The wide Westie sits somewhere inbetween. That and I have a weird affection for live axle cars. Also you get better bang-per-buck out of a Westie (if it's done right, as I say). That said you can get even better bang-per-buck out of some of the others and there's a mighty fine looking striker in the PH classifieds at the moment up at a giveaway price if it's any good.
However if you're new to nails, then I'll always recommend a Caterham. Purely because it's easier to get a good one, they hold their value and they're top fun. My personal favourite of the range is the old Superlight. Even with the K-Series (that I loathe), I will accept that it suits the car down to the ground and probably helps the balance of the thing which is magnificent. Spec-wise, as people have said, a dry sump is essential on a K-series, get the 6 speed box, LSD, quick rack, 13x6 wheels all round (keeps it lively), race springs, and bin all the weather gear and wotnot. They are without a doubt the sweetest thing in the world in that configuration. Any car that can make me accept the K-Series as the powerplant of choice is something special.
With a Caterham, you know what you're getting from the spec and the variations between one SLR and another will be very small. Overall the consistency of the builds is very, very good. Westfields can be much more variable, there are absolutely exceptional ones out there, and if you know what you're doing, you can pick one up that's every bit as good as a Caterham. But you do need to know what to look for. The same goes again but moreso for the Sylvas of this world. These things win race series for a reason. The thing being there will also be a lot of sheds around. That's not to say there are no Caterham sheds, there are, there are just less of them.
With my own money I seem to always come back to Westies. The standard Caterham is slightly too small for my fat arse and the SV is just enormous. The wide Westie sits somewhere inbetween. That and I have a weird affection for live axle cars. Also you get better bang-per-buck out of a Westie (if it's done right, as I say). That said you can get even better bang-per-buck out of some of the others and there's a mighty fine looking striker in the PH classifieds at the moment up at a giveaway price if it's any good.
However if you're new to nails, then I'll always recommend a Caterham. Purely because it's easier to get a good one, they hold their value and they're top fun. My personal favourite of the range is the old Superlight. Even with the K-Series (that I loathe), I will accept that it suits the car down to the ground and probably helps the balance of the thing which is magnificent. Spec-wise, as people have said, a dry sump is essential on a K-series, get the 6 speed box, LSD, quick rack, 13x6 wheels all round (keeps it lively), race springs, and bin all the weather gear and wotnot. They are without a doubt the sweetest thing in the world in that configuration. Any car that can make me accept the K-Series as the powerplant of choice is something special.
juansolo said:
Caterhams are, on the whole, a snap together car made from all new bits.
...With a Caterham, you know what you're getting from the spec
...Overall the consistency of the builds is very, very good. Westfields can be much more variable, there are absolutely exceptional ones out there, and if you know what you're doing, you can pick one up that's every bit as good as a Caterham.
I wouldn't disagree with anything you've said (apart from the fact that I think the K-series is a great little engine), but you need to bear in mind the OP's requirements....With a Caterham, you know what you're getting from the spec
...Overall the consistency of the builds is very, very good. Westfields can be much more variable, there are absolutely exceptional ones out there, and if you know what you're doing, you can pick one up that's every bit as good as a Caterham.
He's stipulated a pre-1992 car, for local legal requirments, which makes all the stuff about the K-series and 6-speed gearboxes pretty much irrelavant and much of the rest of what you've written far less important.
The car will be at least 16 years old, which will have averaged out a lot of the build quality variability (and the specification consistency of the Caterham!)
Sam_68 said:
juansolo said:
Caterhams are, on the whole, a snap together car made from all new bits.
...With a Caterham, you know what you're getting from the spec
...Overall the consistency of the builds is very, very good. Westfields can be much more variable, there are absolutely exceptional ones out there, and if you know what you're doing, you can pick one up that's every bit as good as a Caterham.
I wouldn't disagree with anything you've said (apart from the fact that I think the K-series is a great little engine), but you need to bear in mind the OP's requirements....With a Caterham, you know what you're getting from the spec
...Overall the consistency of the builds is very, very good. Westfields can be much more variable, there are absolutely exceptional ones out there, and if you know what you're doing, you can pick one up that's every bit as good as a Caterham.
He's stipulated a pre-1992 car, for local legal requirments, which makes all the stuff about the K-series and 6-speed gearboxes pretty much irrelavant and much of the rest of what you've written far less important.
The car will be at least 16 years old, which will have averaged out a lot of the build quality variability (and the specification consistency of the Caterham!)
In that context then, I'd be looking for an older car that had recently been rebuilt. Basically something like mine HERE. It's registered 1989 but was completely ground up rebuilt in 2004. It even came in under his budget. Shows you the sort of thing you can get from the other camp with careful buyage.
Edited by juansolo on Sunday 14th December 09:49
If its of use to anyone, I know where there is a 1989 registered long cockpit / De deion seven that was rebuilt last winter. Its got a 5 speed box, later double wishbone front suspension with adjustable platforms all round. Needless to say it looks in excellent condition. Currently running a Xflow engine that the owner wants to retain but the rest of the car is likely to be available. Budget is going to be mid-£8k I expect
Edited by Tango7 on Sunday 4th January 11:30
ah a fellow finn. good to hear there's interest in the old country as well. funny thing about the finnish car law and taxation. they can be very uptight about the whole importing business.
anyhow, i've recently posted another topic you might find interesting. it's in this same forum, and it's called "rookie wanting a caterham badly"... or something is that vein. there was a lot of helpful input by a number of members. do check it out. my advice would be to come and test drive the car before purchasing it, even if it is a bit troublesome. as it is you can never tell for sure just by looking at a picture. plus get in touch with a member of a club and have them come along if you are not certain about some technical bits and bobs. i'm sure there are a lot of people who would be happy to help you out.
enjoy.
anyhow, i've recently posted another topic you might find interesting. it's in this same forum, and it's called "rookie wanting a caterham badly"... or something is that vein. there was a lot of helpful input by a number of members. do check it out. my advice would be to come and test drive the car before purchasing it, even if it is a bit troublesome. as it is you can never tell for sure just by looking at a picture. plus get in touch with a member of a club and have them come along if you are not certain about some technical bits and bobs. i'm sure there are a lot of people who would be happy to help you out.
enjoy.
Thanks guys, I have a pretty good idea of what I want now.
Delivering it myself might be tricky, there's no easy and straight connection between UK and Finland, but well... a little road trip can't harm too much
For now I'll just keep an eye on the classifieds. I hope the market will expand a bit towards the spring, not a lot of cars out there that meet the age criteria at the moment.
Delivering it myself might be tricky, there's no easy and straight connection between UK and Finland, but well... a little road trip can't harm too much
For now I'll just keep an eye on the classifieds. I hope the market will expand a bit towards the spring, not a lot of cars out there that meet the age criteria at the moment.
Moi mxm
Seem's to be so that youre fulfilling my dream. We've had talk about se7en's in 9xx if I remember right.
Kristoffer drives he's se7en around the year, so you might be able meet him with the car;)
I would love to have same sitsuation than your having, was this close to btdt.
Seem's to be so that youre fulfilling my dream. We've had talk about se7en's in 9xx if I remember right.
Kristoffer drives he's se7en around the year, so you might be able meet him with the car;)
I would love to have same sitsuation than your having, was this close to btdt.
Edited by SamuliS on Thursday 19th February 12:18
MXM said:
Thanks guys, I have a pretty good idea of what I want now.
Delivering it myself might be tricky, there's no easy and straight connection between UK and Finland, but well... a little road trip can't harm too much
For now I'll just keep an eye on the classifieds. I hope the market will expand a bit towards the spring, not a lot of cars out there that meet the age criteria at the moment.
A good friend of mine is selling a classic 1.6 from around 1990 year. It is in excellent condition and well looked after. From memory he was after £7k and therefore it is well under your budget. The car is also based in Newcastle Upon Tyne on the north east coast and therefore boat transport may be a little simpler from this port.Delivering it myself might be tricky, there's no easy and straight connection between UK and Finland, but well... a little road trip can't harm too much
For now I'll just keep an eye on the classifieds. I hope the market will expand a bit towards the spring, not a lot of cars out there that meet the age criteria at the moment.
Carl
Edited by Hedgetrimmer on Thursday 19th February 15:41
Edited by Hedgetrimmer on Tuesday 24th February 08:39
Hedgetrimmer said:
A good friend of mine is selling a classic 1.6 from around 1990 year. It is in excellent condition and well looked after. From memory he was after £7k and therefore it is well under your budget. The car is also based in Newcastle Upon Tyne on the north east cost and therefore boat transport may be a little simpler from this port.
Carl
Sounds like a car I would be very interested in. Unfortunately it seems I wont be able to get a 7 before the late spring, maybe even summer. Carl
Edited by Hedgetrimmer on Thursday 19th February 15:41
So for now I'm just browsing and looking at pictures...
Think of the most spec'ed up Caterham that you could wish for, then halve the price and thats what a similar spec Westfield would cost! I'm not saying that it would be better, it all depends on the build quality but, generally speaking, in my experience, thats what I'd do.
Then all you have to worry about is whether you can live without the 'pedigree' & 'history' of the Caterham & if you can put up with people constantly telling you that you've made the wrong desicion!
Then all you have to worry about is whether you can live without the 'pedigree' & 'history' of the Caterham & if you can put up with people constantly telling you that you've made the wrong desicion!
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