Saving for a Seven Type Car
Discussion
Whether or not a Caterham is worth the premium over a westfield or any other seven type car will be entirely up to you. It depends on your views on heritage, performance, looks, factory support, handling, ease of build, what you intend to use the car for, etc. It's not a question for which there is a correct answer.
With regards to how much for a good example, I would say 7.5K should secure a good live axle car or a slightly scruffy de-dion although you may be lucky a get a real bargain.
Best of luck.
With regards to how much for a good example, I would say 7.5K should secure a good live axle car or a slightly scruffy de-dion although you may be lucky a get a real bargain.
Best of luck.
Westies hold their value pretty well too, so the price difference at the bottom end is not that great. Early 90s Supersprints are fairly common, and usually not too mucked about with. Similar era Westfields may have a Pinto, which I would not choose over the 1700 Supersprint. So you may have to do some digging to find the right engine for you.
There is a certain Morgan-esque quality to these older cars (both Caterham and Westfield). Pops and bangs and flared wings make for a more "Classic" feel. If you like the whole KAR120C look then these are good bets.
You can get more modern Tiger for similar money. Or a Stuart Taylor Locoblade - which will blow 90% of the cars on PH into the weeds
These are more likely to be bespoke type cars. You get a LOT for you money, but the bits may be hard to come by either now or in the future.
At the top end .... hmmmm. R500s are very very good cars but that is a lot of money to justify on heritage and support.
Really depends on what you are after. Track day weapon at a decent price. "Heritage" seven. Thing that blitzes Top Gear. Different answers for different requirements.
There is a certain Morgan-esque quality to these older cars (both Caterham and Westfield). Pops and bangs and flared wings make for a more "Classic" feel. If you like the whole KAR120C look then these are good bets.
You can get more modern Tiger for similar money. Or a Stuart Taylor Locoblade - which will blow 90% of the cars on PH into the weeds
These are more likely to be bespoke type cars. You get a LOT for you money, but the bits may be hard to come by either now or in the future.
At the top end .... hmmmm. R500s are very very good cars but that is a lot of money to justify on heritage and support.
Really depends on what you are after. Track day weapon at a decent price. "Heritage" seven. Thing that blitzes Top Gear. Different answers for different requirements.
Thankyou so far, I will be looking for something that is very usuable on B Road hoons and trackdays.
As I am saving and don't have a great income hearing I could find one for £7.5K is fantastic I was expecting to have to save around £10K.
Not really that sure what I'm after at this moment in time, so will speak to some seven type car owners locally.
As I am saving and don't have a great income hearing I could find one for £7.5K is fantastic I was expecting to have to save around £10K.
Not really that sure what I'm after at this moment in time, so will speak to some seven type car owners locally.
will_ said:
...if you're going for a Caterham I would say it's worth extending the budget to get a K-series
Even that's down to personal preference! By any rational measure, the K-series is a better engine than the Crossflow (lighter, more fuel efficient, more reliable), but the fuel injection and mapped ignition mean that it's really pretty characterless compared to anything on twin Webers with lumpy cams. If you want the full experience, you need something with a powerband, that spits neat petrol at you when cold and pops and bangs on the over-run.
to that Having had both a xflow Cat, and now a K series R300 Cat, I would say if your going to do lots of trackdays, go for a K series and one with a de-dion rear end. Reasoning, if your going to run sticky tyres, de-dion will stand up better than a live axle. Plus be aware of the noise restrictions at many trackdays, a xflow on webers is a noisy beast. But bang for bucks the xflows are great cars and the experience is fantastic, plus they are good value.
On your second point, if your not brand concious, any well put together 7 type car will be as capable as a Caterham, there are some great Westfields around and they are good value, with a friendly club to boot.
On your second point, if your not brand concious, any well put together 7 type car will be as capable as a Caterham, there are some great Westfields around and they are good value, with a friendly club to boot.
I'd forgot all about noise restrictions, well I hadn't ... just not actually thought about it, thanks for bringing it up. I presume most owners would know what db their car was running at or at least have an idea if it'll get by the noise restriction?
No idea really how many track days I'll be doing, when I can afford them really though being a Motorsport student from September, perhaps we'll get to know people in high places
(I hope!!)
No idea really how many track days I'll be doing, when I can afford them really though being a Motorsport student from September, perhaps we'll get to know people in high places
(I hope!!)See if you can find a copy of the Circuit Driver "Attack of the Clones" article (it was on the front cover). It was a test between a Caterham, Westfield, Dax, Tiger etc. The judge was Mark Hales, who is not only a superb driver and journalist, but also is unbiased because he's not really a fan of these sorts of cars and if anything was a bit of a Caterham cynic. The result? well, the use of the word "was" in that last sentence will probably tell you the conclusions
CatherineJ said:
£10k is pretty good, it's not too far off the cost of buying a brand new Classic model, according to Caterham's website.
Ah, but then you have to add such essentials as paint and er....weather gear.I echo the ex Racecar route, especially the Academy cars - there are some great value sorted cars out there for surprisingly little money
RobM77 said:
See if you can find a copy of the Circuit Driver "Attack of the Clones" article
Rob has a shrine to this article in his spare room. Twice a day he has to go in there and light candles then spend 15 minutes touching his forehead to the floor whilst chanting quotes from it. For what it's worth, it's written by the same Mark Hales who loved the Morgan in an Evo magazine 'track day car of the year' article when everyone else thought it handled like an antiquated old shed, and who races TVR's (not noted for their handling prowess) for fun. Sure, he's a very competent race driver, but that doesn't necessarily mean that his word on handling should be taken as the definitive and only gospel.
The general concensus (backed up by my own experience - I've owned both marques) is that the steering feel is better on a Caterham, but otherwise there's really not much in it if they are set up equally well (though part of Westfield's problem is that specifications and set-ups vary a lot more than Caterham).
In my personal opinion, the SEi (IRS) Westfields are better for road use than traditional Caterhams because their ability to run a more compliant set-up deals with the ruts and potholes better. Ironically, Mark Hales came to a similar conclusion in the opposite direction when he stated a preference for the Westfield over the Caterham CSR for track use, on the grounds that the (IRS) CSR was set-up for road use whilst the particular Westfield it was being tested against was a track-day special with appropriate spring & damper rates...
It's all about set-up and personal opinion, basically, so better to try the car and form your own judgement rather than regurgitating someone else's words of wisdom.
This is also the same Mark Hales who is entrusted with racing Nick Mason's priceless collection of historic cars, from his BRMV16 right up to an 80s F1 car. I've chatted to Mark on a few occasions and he's very intelligent and knowledgeable about cars. For sure, opinions vary, but if we think about the car journos out there, I trust and value Mark's opinion above any other.
To the OP though: Sam knows his stuff too. I think the best thing to do is to grab a drive or a ride in a few different types of car and form your opinions there. Any local Lotus 7 Club meeting is perfect for finding out about Caterhams, and I'm sure this forum would produce a few passenger rides in Westfields etc if you ask nicely
Finally, I should say that the Lotus 7 Club is one of the best motoring clubs I've ever been involved in, and is a very vali reason for choosing a Lotus or Caterham 7 over a replica.
To the OP though: Sam knows his stuff too. I think the best thing to do is to grab a drive or a ride in a few different types of car and form your opinions there. Any local Lotus 7 Club meeting is perfect for finding out about Caterhams, and I'm sure this forum would produce a few passenger rides in Westfields etc if you ask nicely
Finally, I should say that the Lotus 7 Club is one of the best motoring clubs I've ever been involved in, and is a very vali reason for choosing a Lotus or Caterham 7 over a replica.
[url=http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1005124.htm]R1 Striker[/url] Super sweet, worth at least £7k handles lovely and will be worth most what you paid for it in a couple of years if you look after it.
Try them all, opinions vary.
Personally, my list would include, Caterham, Sylva (fury, stylus and striker, all based round a very similar chassis/drivetrain, the fury has full bodywork, & the stylus has doors!), westfield & stuart tyalor (phoenix, which is basically the same root car as the full bodywork fury/stylus).
Arguments for the Cat7 are that they are more of a component car, with very little margin for build cockuppery, and no sign of rusty sierra bits anywhere. A great club, have a very good general level of fit & finish and can be upgraded/sold easier.
Arguments for the rest are that you can generally get a better specced car for less £, but the fit/finish/driving experience can be hit and miss due to the more kit car nature of the build and time effort it takes to set the car up for it's weight/power/road or track focus. A good one is every bit as good as a caterham, a rough one is more common, unfortunatley.
BB
Try them all, opinions vary.
Personally, my list would include, Caterham, Sylva (fury, stylus and striker, all based round a very similar chassis/drivetrain, the fury has full bodywork, & the stylus has doors!), westfield & stuart tyalor (phoenix, which is basically the same root car as the full bodywork fury/stylus).
Arguments for the Cat7 are that they are more of a component car, with very little margin for build cockuppery, and no sign of rusty sierra bits anywhere. A great club, have a very good general level of fit & finish and can be upgraded/sold easier.
Arguments for the rest are that you can generally get a better specced car for less £, but the fit/finish/driving experience can be hit and miss due to the more kit car nature of the build and time effort it takes to set the car up for it's weight/power/road or track focus. A good one is every bit as good as a caterham, a rough one is more common, unfortunatley.
BB
"..be aware of the noise restrictions at many trackdays, a xflow on webers is a noisy beast."
That all depends; get a reasonable silencer, mines a Techcraft 6", and some decent packing and a x/flow will be fine. Mine registered just 94dB at 4,500 revs at Goddwood on Saturday.
That all depends; get a reasonable silencer, mines a Techcraft 6", and some decent packing and a x/flow will be fine. Mine registered just 94dB at 4,500 revs at Goddwood on Saturday.
Edited by Aeroscreens on Wednesday 29th April 13:02
This is purely opinion, and due to that nature of the beasts, owners tend to be very biased.
I love Se7ens. Not because of the history of Colin Chapman or any of that nonsense, but purely because they're raw. If you were to build a car, to hold two people, be as light as possible and go as fast as possible, you'd end up with something very similar to a 7. That's my attraction; not history or heritage...just the best driving experience I can find.
I have a Locost and a Caterham. I built the Locost when I was 15 and was at college, and it cost me £800. A few years later, the Caterham was about 10 times as expensive, but in my opinion, worth it.
I ran the Caterham as my everyday car for 3 years, and must say it was fantastic. For what I wanted it for (Mostly road and a couple of track days), I don't believe I could get another 7 as well suited. I find Westfields too big for me. I'm about 5'10" and 11stone, a fairly average size, but when I'm in a Westie I feel like a child. Everything feels really far away. Bear in mind, at my budget (Similar to yours), 4 or 5years ago, I was looking at mid 90s cars. I didn't like the Wide Westies, and the narrow ones don't have detachable wings, which put me off a bit.
The Caterham is 100% entirely practical. The only thing I used other cars for were funerals and towing. I'm not picking on Westfields especially here, as they are great cars, but for my purpose, I didn't think any other 7 could match the Caterham. I needed a hood that didn't leak a drop, as the car would be used in all weathers and sit outside...but I needed to have great visibility from it, not a totally useless hood that fogs up and you can't see out. The Caterham hood never let a drop of rain in, even standing outside in seriously heavy rain, and with the rear window unzipped, I was totally dry and all windows were fog free. (I think the Caterham hood is superior to most other 7s hoods).
From a driving point of view, what impressed me most about the Caterham was the layout of switches and gauges. It feels right. Your fingers seem to just know where to go for the indicators and lights, and nothing is awkward or out of place. Alot of the other 7s I'd seen had dashboards, seemingly designed by toddlers. For a track car, its not so critcal, but for my use, a decent dash layout is essential.
I've never actually driven a Westfield or other 7, so I'm not going to comment on them from that point of view. If you want a pure track car, I'd urge you towards a Westfield, as being one of the big two, they hold their money well...but you will get more car/toys for the money. For a road car with occasional track use, I would strongly encourage you to get a Caterham K Series (Supersport De Dion would be my choice - 1.4s are affordable).
Se7ens all go like stink. They're all light and they're all fast. It depends on what you're going to do with it, what one you should buy. I've toured with mine every year, slept in it, driven 4000miles (Through 11 countries) in a week in it, done trackdays in it, driven to work in it, and have always been impressed with it. For me it fits the bill.
Go to a show or meet and sit in a few. They're different in reality than photos and magazines. You might fall in love with the mean stance of a Westie with the V8 scoop, or you might find the simple lines of a Caterham appeals to you. You might think a Caterham is cramped, but the Westie is comfortable. Most importantly, work out what you want it to do, then buy the one that fits best.
But please...do buy one. I fully intend to never, ever, be without a 7 again.
Willie
I love Se7ens. Not because of the history of Colin Chapman or any of that nonsense, but purely because they're raw. If you were to build a car, to hold two people, be as light as possible and go as fast as possible, you'd end up with something very similar to a 7. That's my attraction; not history or heritage...just the best driving experience I can find.
I have a Locost and a Caterham. I built the Locost when I was 15 and was at college, and it cost me £800. A few years later, the Caterham was about 10 times as expensive, but in my opinion, worth it.
I ran the Caterham as my everyday car for 3 years, and must say it was fantastic. For what I wanted it for (Mostly road and a couple of track days), I don't believe I could get another 7 as well suited. I find Westfields too big for me. I'm about 5'10" and 11stone, a fairly average size, but when I'm in a Westie I feel like a child. Everything feels really far away. Bear in mind, at my budget (Similar to yours), 4 or 5years ago, I was looking at mid 90s cars. I didn't like the Wide Westies, and the narrow ones don't have detachable wings, which put me off a bit.
The Caterham is 100% entirely practical. The only thing I used other cars for were funerals and towing. I'm not picking on Westfields especially here, as they are great cars, but for my purpose, I didn't think any other 7 could match the Caterham. I needed a hood that didn't leak a drop, as the car would be used in all weathers and sit outside...but I needed to have great visibility from it, not a totally useless hood that fogs up and you can't see out. The Caterham hood never let a drop of rain in, even standing outside in seriously heavy rain, and with the rear window unzipped, I was totally dry and all windows were fog free. (I think the Caterham hood is superior to most other 7s hoods).
From a driving point of view, what impressed me most about the Caterham was the layout of switches and gauges. It feels right. Your fingers seem to just know where to go for the indicators and lights, and nothing is awkward or out of place. Alot of the other 7s I'd seen had dashboards, seemingly designed by toddlers. For a track car, its not so critcal, but for my use, a decent dash layout is essential.
I've never actually driven a Westfield or other 7, so I'm not going to comment on them from that point of view. If you want a pure track car, I'd urge you towards a Westfield, as being one of the big two, they hold their money well...but you will get more car/toys for the money. For a road car with occasional track use, I would strongly encourage you to get a Caterham K Series (Supersport De Dion would be my choice - 1.4s are affordable).
Se7ens all go like stink. They're all light and they're all fast. It depends on what you're going to do with it, what one you should buy. I've toured with mine every year, slept in it, driven 4000miles (Through 11 countries) in a week in it, done trackdays in it, driven to work in it, and have always been impressed with it. For me it fits the bill.
Go to a show or meet and sit in a few. They're different in reality than photos and magazines. You might fall in love with the mean stance of a Westie with the V8 scoop, or you might find the simple lines of a Caterham appeals to you. You might think a Caterham is cramped, but the Westie is comfortable. Most importantly, work out what you want it to do, then buy the one that fits best.
But please...do buy one. I fully intend to never, ever, be without a 7 again.
Willie
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