How durable a Duratec tuned to 263bhp?
Discussion
As soon as I can, I plan to purchase an R400 or R500. I've test-driven an R400 and it was lovely. I mean really lovely. Just seemed to make so much sense. BUT, if I went for that, would I eventually feel like I was missing out on the sheer brutal acceleration and thrill of the R500?
There would be two potential reasons I would not go for the R500: one, I (like all of us) think I'm a good driver and like to make progress safely, but wouldn't want to take liberties with such extremity and get myself into bother? (I've read a lot about predicatability and progressiveness on or over the limits but is that true to those of us not with the last name Bovingdon or Harris?). 2, I plan to use it a lot, and with 263 being a quite high state of tune of this engine, would it require a re-build eventually? I've read lots of threads trying to find the answer to this last one, and no one's really talking about rebuilds for this engine. Does that mean even at 263bhp it's still quite low-stressed?
It's a quandry I can't decide on. Any thoughts from a 'real-world' perspective
There would be two potential reasons I would not go for the R500: one, I (like all of us) think I'm a good driver and like to make progress safely, but wouldn't want to take liberties with such extremity and get myself into bother? (I've read a lot about predicatability and progressiveness on or over the limits but is that true to those of us not with the last name Bovingdon or Harris?). 2, I plan to use it a lot, and with 263 being a quite high state of tune of this engine, would it require a re-build eventually? I've read lots of threads trying to find the answer to this last one, and no one's really talking about rebuilds for this engine. Does that mean even at 263bhp it's still quite low-stressed?
It's a quandry I can't decide on. Any thoughts from a 'real-world' perspective
timrw81 said:
As soon as I can, I plan to purchase an R400 or R500. I've test-driven an R400 and it was lovely. I mean really lovely. Just seemed to make so much sense. BUT, if I went for that, would I eventually feel like I was missing out on the sheer brutal acceleration and thrill of the R500?
There would be two potential reasons I would not go for the R500: one, I (like all of us) think I'm a good driver and like to make progress safely, but wouldn't want to take liberties with such extremity and get myself into bother? (I've read a lot about predicatability and progressiveness on or over the limits but is that true to those of us not with the last name Bovingdon or Harris?). 2, I plan to use it a lot, and with 263 being a quite high state of tune of this engine, would it require a re-build eventually? I've read lots of threads trying to find the answer to this last one, and no one's really talking about rebuilds for this engine. Does that mean even at 263bhp it's still quite low-stressed?
It's a quandry I can't decide on. Any thoughts from a 'real-world' perspective
You tell us ? are you the sort of person who has to have the best ?There would be two potential reasons I would not go for the R500: one, I (like all of us) think I'm a good driver and like to make progress safely, but wouldn't want to take liberties with such extremity and get myself into bother? (I've read a lot about predicatability and progressiveness on or over the limits but is that true to those of us not with the last name Bovingdon or Harris?). 2, I plan to use it a lot, and with 263 being a quite high state of tune of this engine, would it require a re-build eventually? I've read lots of threads trying to find the answer to this last one, and no one's really talking about rebuilds for this engine. Does that mean even at 263bhp it's still quite low-stressed?
It's a quandry I can't decide on. Any thoughts from a 'real-world' perspective
The R400 is plenty fast enough for trackdays and IMO unless you are some sort of driving hero (if you were then you probably wouldnt be buying an R400 but already racing one instead) then to get to the point where you are using the R400 close to its full ability on track (i.e. acceleration, brakes & cornering) will take you quite some time. And btw I am talking about driving thats a LOT faster than what you might observe from someone like Bovingdon in your average DR video. I don't know about now but certainly a few years ago you used to see a lot of R400 and R500s about at trackdays who were slower than a basic 130bhp megagrad racecar. In summary: There is a lot of car there in which to grow... driven properly they are VERY fast.
If it was me though id go R500 because it has that halo, that cache and i would want the sequential and also the mad redline. Do not underestimate engine character. Ive not driven the new R500 but there is a lot to be said for a caterham that screams it nuts off with a high rpm limit. That and sequential adds an awful lot to the whole experience.
As for driving, genereally caterhams are very easy to drive, R400 or R500 so no difference there really. They are very informative so you know whats going on the nanosecond it happens and also because you sit at the back any rotation is amplified slightly and easily detected. Just get it setup properly preferably by someone at the actual circuit and do some airfield days to learn what it does. When its wet they can be a handful .... adapt by changing your setup and driving style and get some training.
Rebuilds, all trackcars require rebuilds. Even the old Superlight R's required rebuilds. An R400 will at some point as well. Don't know the exact recommended interval on an R500 but with a lot of normal road use as well it will be quite a long time most likely so not something that should limit your choices.
IMO, your 2 reasons are not reasons to not go for an R500
Edited by jackal on Friday 24th April 23:49
+1.
R400 really is a great car but if I had the budget it would have to be the '500 w/sequential. Caterham's have a superb balance so as long as you have a 'fairly' sensible right foot you will have no issues. The difference between the two in terms of performance is HUGE, might be worth a visit to CC and see if you can get a drive, you may find that 400+ bhp per ton is plenty - pretty sure that Caterham will release some upgrades for the Duratec if you fancy some more poke later on.
Rebuilds shouldn't be an issue either, just warm it up properly before using all the revs, keep the fluids topped up and and 25 - 30000 miles should be no problem. The R5's motor sounds FANTASTIC up at 8600!
Both will make you smile hugely and both are mighty fast but if budget is no issue go for the R500, just be prepared to spend some time getting the most out of it but then again, that's the fun bit!
R400 really is a great car but if I had the budget it would have to be the '500 w/sequential. Caterham's have a superb balance so as long as you have a 'fairly' sensible right foot you will have no issues. The difference between the two in terms of performance is HUGE, might be worth a visit to CC and see if you can get a drive, you may find that 400+ bhp per ton is plenty - pretty sure that Caterham will release some upgrades for the Duratec if you fancy some more poke later on.
Rebuilds shouldn't be an issue either, just warm it up properly before using all the revs, keep the fluids topped up and and 25 - 30000 miles should be no problem. The R5's motor sounds FANTASTIC up at 8600!
Both will make you smile hugely and both are mighty fast but if budget is no issue go for the R500, just be prepared to spend some time getting the most out of it but then again, that's the fun bit!
something to bear in mind is the noise implications. Our Duratec R400 can pass noise testing at any UK circuit with no problems - producing the full 210bhp. The R500 IS capable of passing noise testing but only with additional silencing and a big airbox - which will compromise the power output slightly.
My personal opinion is that an unrestricted R400+Sequential box wouldn't be a million miles off a strangled R500 but about £6K or so cheaper. Statistically and logically the R400 has GOT to be more reliable than the R500 as well.
Jonny
BaT
My personal opinion is that an unrestricted R400+Sequential box wouldn't be a million miles off a strangled R500 but about £6K or so cheaper. Statistically and logically the R400 has GOT to be more reliable than the R500 as well.
Jonny
BaT
To answer the first question, having the best is not a priority (and there's always gonna be someone that's got a 'better' car than mine). No, it's all about what I want from the car.
I suppose the main thing is the acceleration. The R400 I drove pulled like billio. It was a great feeling, and felt wonderfully torquey even at quite low revs, but it didn't hit me in the back and catapult me towards the horizon in the way I thought it would. I just love the idea of my right foot putting me where I want to go, when I want to go there.
This is somewhat academic as I can't afford either yet, but it's been good to hear your opinions. So I think it would be the R500. If it will cope with a lot of road driving, then the reliability issue goes out the window. The only other factor is predictability over the limit. I guess that's just something you and the car go through together. And that's another thing that attracts me to the R500 - as much effort and skill as you put in, it's always going to reward you.
I suppose the main thing is the acceleration. The R400 I drove pulled like billio. It was a great feeling, and felt wonderfully torquey even at quite low revs, but it didn't hit me in the back and catapult me towards the horizon in the way I thought it would. I just love the idea of my right foot putting me where I want to go, when I want to go there.
This is somewhat academic as I can't afford either yet, but it's been good to hear your opinions. So I think it would be the R500. If it will cope with a lot of road driving, then the reliability issue goes out the window. The only other factor is predictability over the limit. I guess that's just something you and the car go through together. And that's another thing that attracts me to the R500 - as much effort and skill as you put in, it's always going to reward you.
timrw81 said:
To answer the first question, having the best is not a priority (and there's always gonna be someone that's got a 'better' car than mine). No, it's all about what I want from the car.
I suppose the main thing is the acceleration. The R400 I drove pulled like billio. It was a great feeling, and felt wonderfully torquey even at quite low revs, but it didn't hit me in the back and catapult me towards the horizon in the way I thought it would. I just love the idea of my right foot putting me where I want to go, when I want to go there.
This is somewhat academic as I can't afford either yet, but it's been good to hear your opinions. So I think it would be the R500. If it will cope with a lot of road driving, then the reliability issue goes out the window. The only other factor is predictability over the limit. I guess that's just something you and the car go through together. And that's another thing that attracts me to the R500 - as much effort and skill as you put in, it's always going to reward you.
just get the R500.... sounds like thats what you need to doI suppose the main thing is the acceleration. The R400 I drove pulled like billio. It was a great feeling, and felt wonderfully torquey even at quite low revs, but it didn't hit me in the back and catapult me towards the horizon in the way I thought it would. I just love the idea of my right foot putting me where I want to go, when I want to go there.
This is somewhat academic as I can't afford either yet, but it's been good to hear your opinions. So I think it would be the R500. If it will cope with a lot of road driving, then the reliability issue goes out the window. The only other factor is predictability over the limit. I guess that's just something you and the car go through together. And that's another thing that attracts me to the R500 - as much effort and skill as you put in, it's always going to reward you.
I dont get what you are asking about predicatbility though. a caterham will handle as per how you set it up... has got nothing to do with R400/R500 etc.. Why would handling or limit friendliness dictate what model you get ? Just get the car you want and that sounds liek teh quicker one.... also see my point above, MORE REVS and SEQUENTIAL in the R500 will make up a HUGE proportion of the fun and are FAR more significant than the extra 60bhp. The R400 does not have either of these two items.
Interesting thread, since I ordered a 400 in January, then 6 weeks later changed it to a 500!
Why? I ordered new because I wanted a Duratec, and if I was going to have such a car, I wanted an exact spec, and with so few of these cars on the market, new was the best route. Tried the 400, and it was fantastic. But I ended up speccing it up quite a bit (even SWMBO got involved - 'Kevlar seats eh? Yeah, like that....'). So when I reviewed what I had got, I was very close to 500 money (excluding a sequential), and moving to this meant that I was getting a 50bhp stronger motor and it was costing almost nothing. Once I was there, I only had to decide on the gearbox. I actually went normal 6 speed in the end, since I was not sure about usability on the road (I plan on half road, half track), and also, I had to stop the spending soemwhere. I figure that if I have made a mistake here, I can easily sell the 6 speed and drop in a Quaife (much easier and cost effective that deciding that I wanted more from a 400 motor, and having that done).
I do not know 'how much more' I will actually get out of driving the 500 - I am sure that the capabilities of the 400 are far greater than mine. But from where I was sitting, I believe that it was the right choice. Time will tell, and I am sure that I am going to have great fun finding out.
Why? I ordered new because I wanted a Duratec, and if I was going to have such a car, I wanted an exact spec, and with so few of these cars on the market, new was the best route. Tried the 400, and it was fantastic. But I ended up speccing it up quite a bit (even SWMBO got involved - 'Kevlar seats eh? Yeah, like that....'). So when I reviewed what I had got, I was very close to 500 money (excluding a sequential), and moving to this meant that I was getting a 50bhp stronger motor and it was costing almost nothing. Once I was there, I only had to decide on the gearbox. I actually went normal 6 speed in the end, since I was not sure about usability on the road (I plan on half road, half track), and also, I had to stop the spending soemwhere. I figure that if I have made a mistake here, I can easily sell the 6 speed and drop in a Quaife (much easier and cost effective that deciding that I wanted more from a 400 motor, and having that done).
I do not know 'how much more' I will actually get out of driving the 500 - I am sure that the capabilities of the 400 are far greater than mine. But from where I was sitting, I believe that it was the right choice. Time will tell, and I am sure that I am going to have great fun finding out.
I'd get the R500 - well I am biased as I did. I have No 4.
I initially ordered an R400 in Jan 08 but when I heard of the R500 switched immediately.
I had raced a superlight for a year and loved that so wanted something fast on track. I find on road tyres (i.e. missing slicks) the R400 loses a bit through the corners so I wanted a bit extra for the straights.
I think the real issue though is the experience. The extra revs create a rush from about 7,000 onwards and that is a thrill on the track or the road. It gives a huge rush and the sound that goes with it makes it thrilling. On the road that burst feels very wrong in such a right way - it is all about the character of the car. Throw in the sequential gear box and the car has a very distinct character. The changes are so fast and precise. It is easier to down change late on the road when a corner sneeks up on you as they ocassionally do. That makes it safer. It feels very fast on the road and really too fast but all you need to do to build up to it is short shift. My wife drives thr R500 - she is a competent driver but not a performance driver. She basically shifts at 5,000 rpm which keeps it safe.
I love it and it feels alot more special than the R400 - saying that, an R400 on slicks is pretty close.
I initially ordered an R400 in Jan 08 but when I heard of the R500 switched immediately.
I had raced a superlight for a year and loved that so wanted something fast on track. I find on road tyres (i.e. missing slicks) the R400 loses a bit through the corners so I wanted a bit extra for the straights.
I think the real issue though is the experience. The extra revs create a rush from about 7,000 onwards and that is a thrill on the track or the road. It gives a huge rush and the sound that goes with it makes it thrilling. On the road that burst feels very wrong in such a right way - it is all about the character of the car. Throw in the sequential gear box and the car has a very distinct character. The changes are so fast and precise. It is easier to down change late on the road when a corner sneeks up on you as they ocassionally do. That makes it safer. It feels very fast on the road and really too fast but all you need to do to build up to it is short shift. My wife drives thr R500 - she is a competent driver but not a performance driver. She basically shifts at 5,000 rpm which keeps it safe.
I love it and it feels alot more special than the R400 - saying that, an R400 on slicks is pretty close.
Marcello, how noisy is your gear box? Mine is very noisy indeed and when I went over to Caterham to compare mine to the demonstrator the white car was much, much quieter. Your car was there and I was told yours was less noisy than mine. Perhaps we could meet up somewhere locally some time soon to compare?
Sure - let's meet up - I am in Horsley between Dorking and Guildford (Do you know Newlands Corner?).
Mine is noisy but not as much as I had expected. I think it is probably similar to theirs. Actually I have a track exhaust which isquiet and the road one is very noisey (took out the baffle - with that the gear box is not even audible).
I find the gear box is noisiest between 3,500 amd 4,500 rpm and above that it is smoother.
Mine is noisy but not as much as I had expected. I think it is probably similar to theirs. Actually I have a track exhaust which isquiet and the road one is very noisey (took out the baffle - with that the gear box is not even audible).
I find the gear box is noisiest between 3,500 amd 4,500 rpm and above that it is smoother.
timrw81 said:
As soon as I can, I plan to purchase an R400 or R500. I've test-driven an R400 and it was lovely. I mean really lovely. Just seemed to make so much sense. BUT, if I went for that, would I eventually feel like I was missing out on the sheer brutal acceleration and thrill of the R500?
There would be two potential reasons I would not go for the R500: one, I (like all of us) think I'm a good driver and like to make progress safely, but wouldn't want to take liberties with such extremity and get myself into bother? (I've read a lot about predicatability and progressiveness on or over the limits but is that true to those of us not with the last name Bovingdon or Harris?). 2, I plan to use it a lot, and with 263 being a quite high state of tune of this engine, would it require a re-build eventually? I've read lots of threads trying to find the answer to this last one, and no one's really talking about rebuilds for this engine. Does that mean even at 263bhp it's still quite low-stressed?
It's a quandry I can't decide on. Any thoughts from a 'real-world' perspective
I've owned a R400 Duratec for about a year now. There's no doubt that 210 hp is not enough if you want get serious with a Caterham on the track but, as has be said in previous posts, the full potential of a Caterham is usually limited by the driver and I've spent many track days trying to keep up with lower HP Caterhams. The extra 53 HP may add a few MPH to the straight line speed, but it's cheaper to learn how to carry the speed through the corners. The buzz you get from the R500 may be more important than the actual performance.There would be two potential reasons I would not go for the R500: one, I (like all of us) think I'm a good driver and like to make progress safely, but wouldn't want to take liberties with such extremity and get myself into bother? (I've read a lot about predicatability and progressiveness on or over the limits but is that true to those of us not with the last name Bovingdon or Harris?). 2, I plan to use it a lot, and with 263 being a quite high state of tune of this engine, would it require a re-build eventually? I've read lots of threads trying to find the answer to this last one, and no one's really talking about rebuilds for this engine. Does that mean even at 263bhp it's still quite low-stressed?
It's a quandry I can't decide on. Any thoughts from a 'real-world' perspective
As for reliability, my engine seemed 'right' from day one and has taken some degree of abuse without any signs of distress, but I would plan on a 'refresh' after a couple of years or 2000 track miles but i'm sure it would easily go 100k on the road.
That last sentence is music to my ears. This car will take up a LOT of my spare income because I'm planning to go down the lease purchase route, so buying a car that is going to need a serious amount of money spending on it after a while is not what I fancy.
The points above about different models having different characters is important, and I still think my question on predictability over the limit is valid, despite being told it was "tosh"
. There are certain cars that have, over the years, been given the unofficial title 'widow-maker' because on the road - NOT on the track - they would grip, grip, grip and then put you into a tree. Not having had the luxury of test driving the R500, I posted onto this forum to ask about that very issue. I keep meaning to bring home my copy of evo where the R500 is road-tested in Scotland. Again, this is on the road - not on a track. Bovingdon talks about "oversteering for the length of a gear" and it not being irresponsible because the car "wants" him to. Traction is being broken at the car's rear, and is being done in relative safety because what happens is predictable. There are a lot of cars that would not "want" you to do that, but would want to kill you instead. The R500 has enough power to let you do that, and being able to fluidly and safely have fun like that is what I aspire to.
I've enjoyed reading everyone's responses to my original post, and this discussion is just what I was after.
The points above about different models having different characters is important, and I still think my question on predictability over the limit is valid, despite being told it was "tosh"
. There are certain cars that have, over the years, been given the unofficial title 'widow-maker' because on the road - NOT on the track - they would grip, grip, grip and then put you into a tree. Not having had the luxury of test driving the R500, I posted onto this forum to ask about that very issue. I keep meaning to bring home my copy of evo where the R500 is road-tested in Scotland. Again, this is on the road - not on a track. Bovingdon talks about "oversteering for the length of a gear" and it not being irresponsible because the car "wants" him to. Traction is being broken at the car's rear, and is being done in relative safety because what happens is predictable. There are a lot of cars that would not "want" you to do that, but would want to kill you instead. The R500 has enough power to let you do that, and being able to fluidly and safely have fun like that is what I aspire to. I've enjoyed reading everyone's responses to my original post, and this discussion is just what I was after.
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