gone over to the dark side

[doclip]

Well after years of owning 4 caterhams [a lotus twinkie ,BDR [my favourite ] ,VXE and Xflow] ive now decided to buy a Westie Seight having just sold my M roadster [scary quick ].I actually fancied a Chimera or Griff with an old pushrod V8 but dont like the handling or the eye watering bills [had a 4.6 wedge as well in past] so for me the ideal marraige is V8 lump in a 7esque car -hence the Seight .The idea of having a nice lump of usueable torque to pull low down in 4th and 5th is a nice thought as well as that V8 burble .
BTW does anyone have any unwanted perspex wind deflectors for sale [i liked these in my 7 when angled correctly up to about 60mph ]-and does anyone know if these fit the westie ?

[Sam_68]

doclip said:

...I actually fancied a Chimera or Griff with an old pushrod V8 but dont like the handling...

I don't want to put you off, but the SEight's handling isn't much better than a Griffith's. They both have way too much torque for the chassis and are very much 'brute force and bloody ignorance' compared to 'normal' (4 cylinder, <2 litre) Caterfields.

I'd strongly suggest that you try both the Grif/Chimp and the Westfield before you make your mind up, as the SEight doesn't offer that much advantage in terms of handling or acceleration and gives an awful lot away in in terms of comfort and usability.

[doclip]

But there is something old school about a 7esque toy -i always got cheery smiles and waves when i in my 7 -and that made me feel nice inside -nobody ever seemed to be jealous of my 7-not sure it would quite the same ownership in a TVR -and then there are the eye watering bills with TVR -been there done that with my big bad wedge
Also fancy a V8 on old school carbs rather than fuel injection -just sounds so much nicer

[doclip]

deflectors sorted off ebay

[Rich7se]

Good choise, hope you enjoy it.

[Eric Mc]

doclip said:

But there is something old school about a 7esque toy -i always got cheery smiles and waves when i in my 7 -and that made me feel nice inside -nobody ever seemed to be jealous of my 7-not sure it would quite the same ownership in a TVR -and then there are the eye watering bills with TVR -been there done that with my big bad wedge
Also fancy a V8 on old school carbs rather than fuel injection -just sounds so much nicer

What attracts you most to Seven type cvars - the handling? The response from passers by?

If you rank handling and driveability as the main atribute, then opting for an engine choice that reduces these characteristics might not be a good move.

[Dave J]

how many torques does a v8 westie have ?

[Sam_68]

Dave J said:

how many torques does a v8 westie have ?

It depends on the spec. Between 210lb.ft for a bog standard 3.5 litre up to around 350lb.ft for a Griffith 500-spec. 5 litre. More if you want to get really silly.

[doclip]

200ftlb is really quite adequate for a car weighing just 600kg -i had 125ftlb in my last xflow which felt ok actually -but im hoping that 200ftlb will make for some nice overtaking in higher gears -ie more rlexing driving -im not going to take the Seight on the track -been there done that in a 240bhp VXE caterham -that would be hard to top .
Why do i like about 7s -they look quirky and old school -I guess I like the raw driving experience without all the driver aids and you feel in touch with the road in a way you dont with bigger roadsters -my ego can cope with people waving and smiling but not with jealousy -ive never once had anyone get wound up about a 7 -in the way that they do with a Beemer ,TVR ,Merc ,Porche etc
OK so its a bit uncomfortable ,noisy ,oil on the garage floor ,sort of experience -but its quite addictive .I thought id finally got the 7 thing out of my system after my 4th caterham and got an M roadster -which beleive me was an incredible car -but somehow it didnt give me that total feeling of contentment that i get from 7 -will i miss the electric hood,the astonishing brakes ,the PAS ,the comfy cabin ,the AC ,reliability , solid feeling ,etc -yes but its just not for me

Edited by doclip on Tuesday 19th May 13:01

[Furyblade_Lee]

May i suggest you try to get a good ride in one first. I used to have a bike-engined Fury, and drove back-to-back in a V8 Fury. Power delivery aside, you could not escape the fact it felt like Lisa Riley was under the bonnet with a big box of biscuits. Maybe heightened by a bike engined car, but even so, it felt like dancing first with a ballet dancer then grappling with some fat-chick in the local Wetherspoons come the corners. And under braking. Does not make the Seight a bad car, far from it, but just be sure it has not lost the deftness that Colin Chapman originally intended for the type.

[Sam_68]

Furyblade_Lee said:

Power delivery aside, you could not escape the fact it felt like Lisa Riley was under the bonnet with a big box of biscuits.

That's very true. I'm not a fan of either extreme (bike engined cars are a bit too neurotic and crack-addicted for my tastes), but torquey V8's don't suit Sevens at all, for me. The ones I've driven have felt distinctly ham-fisted in comparison to 'normal' Sevens, which is completely at odds with the whole ethos of the concept.

Edited by Sam_68 on Wednesday 20th May 08:05

[doclip]

Interesting analogy there

[Pat H]

I once owned a Griffith 500 for four frightening months.

It was more twitchy than a schizophrenic on whizz, so God alone knows how a Westfield would handle with that lump under the bonnet.

I wish you all the best, but I fear that a Seight will feel like a bit of a horse compared to a BDA engined Seven.

Dammit, I'd love a BDA engined Seven.

[Sam_68]

Pat H said:

I once owned a Griffith 500 for four frightening months.

I lasted about a year with mine, but I was always conscious that every time I turned the ignition key I was shortening the odds on having a really big accident.

[doclip]

It all really depends on how its set up [brakes, dampers, suspension ,geo tyres and pressures and right foot ] and how you drive it -ie any car can feel scary when you push it too hard and dont load it up correctly for corners -there is a definite art to doing that quickly yet safely -ie it's possible to enjoy driving briskly without risking your life or others on a road .
I've never really been happy driving any 7 in the wet-on road or track [the weather gear is rubbish and claustrophobic ] - so usually if it's damp i just dont go there .I'ts about knowing the limits of the driver and the car and keeping within those boundaries .I don't have to have to prove anything when i'm driving my 7 -im quite happy going as quick i feel comfortable and let other young guns go by me at bonkers speeds.

Edited by doclip on Friday 22 May 13:16

[fw500]

Sam's comment on the odds of becoming a statistic really rings true. When building my car I spoke to a guy who had already built a similar car and he said that EVERYONE he knew that had a big power (By that I mean over 300Bhp) Turbo'd Westfield had had an accident. I know we're not talking Turbos here, but we're talking high torque. To be honest I kind of ignored his words of caution expecting myself to be an exception but I ended up leaving the track at 100+mph halfway up the straight on my first ever lap in the thing.

IMO you will get to grips with the car with time - but expect a few hairy moments during your learning curve.

[Sam_68]

doclip said:

...any car can feel scary when you push it too hard and dont load it up correctly for corners -there is a definite art to doing that quickly yet safely.

Agreed, but by the time you get to the sort of torque:weight vs. chassis capability of the Griffith 500 (let alone a high spec RV8 in a Westfield), you've got to start to ask yourself what's the point. If you've got to pussyfoot around everywhere because you know that the slightest error (or unexpected change in the road surface, more to the point) will see you wrapped round a lamp-post, then you might as well not bother. The problem with doing it 'quickly yet safely' on a public road is that the variability in surface grip means that you've always got to leave a fairly large safety margin - and the sensible safety margin needs to be increased in proportion with the delivery of torque in comparison to available grip.

My Westfield (and BEC's or Caterham Superlights with similar power:weight ratio) actually have much quicker straight-line acceleration than the Griffith, yet (in the dry, at least) don't feel nearly as intimidating.

My main issue with the Griffith, though, was that it would occasionally feel very unsettled as it crested a camber (usually under acceleration as you'd pulled out to overtake), for no apparent reason. Period road tests mentioned the same problem and people I know whose word and experience I respect when it comes to TVR's and fast driving have acknowledged the same issue. My personal guess is that it's a geometrical problem with rear roll-centre movement, but the factory wouldn't give me details of the geometry to check (suspension is my specialist subject) and I couldn't be arsed measuring everything up to analyse it, so ultimately I chose to get rid of the car before it killed me rather than try to sort it.

The Westfield SEight doesn't have the TVR's suspected geometry problems, but on the other hand it has a lot less weight over the driven wheels, so the torque:grip ratio is much worse and margin you need to allow for 'quickly but safely' is correspondingly large.

Edited by Sam_68 on Friday 22 May 18:05

[doclip]

Those are fair and valid points you have made there actually -i drove an apparently well sorted Griff 4,6 [rob inglebey's actually] and cacked my pants .
However wrt overtaking in a 7 on the road -i got fed up of having to wind it up >4k rpm when overtaking to get it in the torque band -that gets rather tiresome on a long blat IMHO even with ear plugs .
What i like about the V8 is that you're in the useable torque band most of the time and it'll pull nicely for comfortable overtaking in high gear -so no need to always be changing down .
Ive been in a westie blade and didn't like that all -came away with tinnitus in my ears and headache and it felt v light up front as if ot was overstering
Understeer which is common with Seight is in my opinion moe controllable on the throttle
Also i guess it depends on the spec of the engine -ie a highly tuned 4.6 is going to be more of a handful than say a std tune 3.5 -its then down to what it want it for road v track
I agree that i always would have a 4 cyl Zetec or VX or K powered 7 for the track where agility is more imprtnat than mega torque -perhaps for full on hill climbing a V8 would win the day [ive never done that so cant pass comment ]

[Sam_68]

doclip said:

What i like about the V8 is that you're in the useable torque band most of the time and it'll pull nicely for comfortable overtaking in high gear - so no need to always be changing down.

Yes, that's definitely the advantage of a big V8. They're great if you want a lazy, effortless sports tourer (which is the reason I bought my Griffith; trouble is, the 17mpg super-unleaded habit was a bit of a disincentive to continental touring, when I could use my company car and get the petrol free).

But, again, it defeats the object when applied to a Caterfield. Who on earth would buy a Seven if they want a lazy, effortless drive?

The whole point of a Seven is driver involvement and, for the vast majority of people, that includes the involvement of changing gear.

The logical next step if you want effortless overtaking without changing down is to simply go the whole hog and fit an automatic gearbox... then you won't have to worry about changing gear at all!

[doclip]

Actually it would be neat to put say vw 1.9tdi 170bhp flavour into a 7 -all that torque in not to heavy an engine -and quite frugal -wonder why nobody has ever done that
But back to reality guess ill just have to suck and see how the Seight thing goes -actually im v exicted as my car comes up north on a trailor on Tuesday !