Tuscan to Caterham
Discussion
Looking at a change from the TUscan, VX220, M5, EVO etc and now considering a Caterham.
Can anyone shed some light on this car
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1114846.htm
Seems an awful lot of power from a K series, how often do these need stripping?
Can anyone shed some light on this car
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1114846.htm
Seems an awful lot of power from a K series, how often do these need stripping?
tuscan_al said:
Looking at a change from the TUscan, VX220, M5, EVO etc and now considering a Caterham.
Can anyone shed some light on this car
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1114846.htm
Seems an awful lot of power from a K series, how often do these need stripping?
not a very helpful answer, but it depends who built it, how often it's serviced (oil changes mainly), how it's been allowed to warm up and how good the components were that went into it, and how it's generally been driven!Can anyone shed some light on this car
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1114846.htm
Seems an awful lot of power from a K series, how often do these need stripping?
fergus said:
tuscan_al said:
Looking at a change from the TUscan, VX220, M5, EVO etc and now considering a Caterham.
Can anyone shed some light on this car
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1114846.htm
Seems an awful lot of power from a K series, how often do these need stripping?
not a very helpful answer, but it depends who built it, how often it's serviced (oil changes mainly), how it's been allowed to warm up and how good the components were that went into it, and how it's generally been driven!Can anyone shed some light on this car
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1114846.htm
Seems an awful lot of power from a K series, how often do these need stripping?
ANd found its been discussed before. Looks a little too highly strung and a debatable rebuilder..Did we establish who built it? It is of course at the top end of k performance. At one time that was pretty rare and expensive to get. Now k's of that power are much more common. However it is going to be expensive if it goes wrong. I'm a great k fan, but would probably now go duratech for those levels of power in a caterham.
Bert
Bert
An 1800cc K at 240+bhp will be required to REV HARD to get at that power. You'll be looking at 8500rpm which is well into the realms of requiring a steel bottom-end. If it has one, the bottom end will be fine, but at those revs your cam-train is getting a battering, particularly the valve springs because those cams will have high acceleration valve openings. It is possible that the valve springs become a service item (not sure on the interval) but it really depends on how often those sort of revs are used.
Regardless of that, the cams required for this power from an 1800cc K are not as "gentle" as those that you would use for the 1900cc engines which is the more conventional route to 245bhp from a K these days. Max power of a 1900cc K is achieved at around 7800rpm which doesn't sound like it's a lot less than 8500rpm but it really is. The cams required for the 1900cc K are "kinder" in that they accelerate the valve-opening much more gently, albeit at high lift still.
At the end of day it's what others have said... how has it been used and serviced? What constitutes "servicing" for this engine?
[I'm assuming the 1800cc K uses cams with quite flat sides like the 1227s, whereas the 1900cc K will use the 1444s.]
Regardless of that, the cams required for this power from an 1800cc K are not as "gentle" as those that you would use for the 1900cc engines which is the more conventional route to 245bhp from a K these days. Max power of a 1900cc K is achieved at around 7800rpm which doesn't sound like it's a lot less than 8500rpm but it really is. The cams required for the 1900cc K are "kinder" in that they accelerate the valve-opening much more gently, albeit at high lift still.
At the end of day it's what others have said... how has it been used and serviced? What constitutes "servicing" for this engine?
[I'm assuming the 1800cc K uses cams with quite flat sides like the 1227s, whereas the 1900cc K will use the 1444s.]
nigelpugh7 said:
Wow!!
Trust Mr Marston to come along with a proper answer!!
All hail the god of K Series mods - "Mars"
Well done Nige, from the other Nige.
Nige.
I wish it was it my own independent thinking Nige. I'm just grateful that I learned to learn (if you see what I mean) when I spent such a lot of time at DVA Towers. Trust Mr Marston to come along with a proper answer!!
All hail the god of K Series mods - "Mars"
Well done Nige, from the other Nige.
Nige.
tuscan_al said:
Yes super helpful guys, and I don't think such a highly strung car is for me. I am used to that already.
Al, I don't wish to confuse you but if the car hasn't been used hard all the time, it could be a real stonker. It's really worth asking about it. A lot of us played with engine developments and not all of us used them as hard as the sum of their components suggested they should be. At that level of components, it might be something worth investing in.By comparison to the Tuscan, it should have a more robust engine but the driving experience will be far far more frentic than any of the cars you have listed. It's quite addictive.
Mars said:
tuscan_al said:
Yes super helpful guys, and I don't think such a highly strung car is for me. I am used to that already.
Al, I don't wish to confuse you but if the car hasn't been used hard all the time, it could be a real stonker. It's really worth asking about it. A lot of us played with engine developments and not all of us used them as hard as the sum of their components suggested they should be. At that level of components, it might be something worth investing in.By comparison to the Tuscan, it should have a more robust engine but the driving experience will be far far more frentic than any of the cars you have listed. It's quite addictive.
Dave L said:
Of no real contribution to this thread, other than to say I have just sold a Caterham Superlight R which was a 1.9k and similar power to that modified Superlight, and am pretty much set on going for a Tuscan. And was looking at your car tuscan_al as a possible candidate.
Well the two cars kind of lead to each other. Will be interested in your opinion of a tuscan when you get one, mine or not 
Dave L said:
Of no real contribution to this thread, other than to say I have just sold a Caterham Superlight R which was a 1.9k and similar power to that modified Superlight, and am pretty much set on going for a Tuscan. And was looking at your car tuscan_al as a possible candidate.
I reckon there's a certain shared masochism between the two brands. TVR may be an iron fist in a velvet glove, but the sheer ferrocity of big V8s (and sixes) and comparitively crude chassis engineering produces a similar level of drama to a light weight, race-derived nutmobile without so much as a windscreen. It's a very different way of going about it, but I reckon it's the same stimulation.I went for a TVR before the Caterham because I'd owned a loosely Seven-type car before that and I wanted the same level of theatrics, but in a package I could more or less drive to work. When I wanted something a bit more track focused I sold it and got the Caterham. Wish I had room for both.
Mars said:
[I'm assuming the 1800cc K uses cams with quite flat sides like the 1227s, whereas the 1900cc K will use the 1444s.]
I have found the opposite. Infact my 1800 with 1444's hasn't quite made what I wanted so I am looking at a more aggresive inlet cam to take advantage of the porting I have. I think the ultimate spec K would be 1900 and use something below the 1227 and time it to make the most of the torque.I went from a Cerbera SpeedSix to a SV-VHPD for the fun car and a M5 for the work car. Never looked back, other than when I found the pix of our Cerbie being built @ the factory. Main reasons I never looked back included 3X new engines in 11 months of ownership, 8 of 11 months for the car living in Blackpool, and if I want to have a "wet car" I'll leave the hood off.
Frankly as much fun as the Cerbie was, it ain't nothing compared to a good 200Bhp SV -- comfortable, fast, efficient, and unique.
You'll not regret dumping the Cerbie -- get all the engine you can in terms of Bhp coming over to the Se7ens world ;-)
Frankly as much fun as the Cerbie was, it ain't nothing compared to a good 200Bhp SV -- comfortable, fast, efficient, and unique.
You'll not regret dumping the Cerbie -- get all the engine you can in terms of Bhp coming over to the Se7ens world ;-)
Nige - your talking about back in the day when folk built their own engines ....... ahhhhh the old 1227's......
1444's are now considered a conventional cam in K tuning and things have moved on to even more agressive profile with the 2180.
The biggest issue with the K at this revs, power and torque is that the engine flexes a lot with its through bolt design. This causes considerable wear as all the clearances vary.
It would require regular strip and rebuild depending on use to lengthen the time before inevitable destruction.
If you wnat a K series my advice would be get a K with 200/220bhp and spend money on suspension, setup and brakes and you will have as much fun but with less stress on the engine and wallet.
1444's are now considered a conventional cam in K tuning and things have moved on to even more agressive profile with the 2180.
The biggest issue with the K at this revs, power and torque is that the engine flexes a lot with its through bolt design. This causes considerable wear as all the clearances vary.
It would require regular strip and rebuild depending on use to lengthen the time before inevitable destruction.
If you wnat a K series my advice would be get a K with 200/220bhp and spend money on suspension, setup and brakes and you will have as much fun but with less stress on the engine and wallet.
Steve-B said:
I went from a Cerbera SpeedSix to a SV-VHPD for the fun car and a M5 for the work car. Never looked back, other than when I found the pix of our Cerbie being built @ the factory. Main reasons I never looked back included 3X new engines in 11 months of ownership, 8 of 11 months for the car living in Blackpool, and if I want to have a "wet car" I'll leave the hood off.
Frankly as much fun as the Cerbie was, it ain't nothing compared to a good 200Bhp SV -- comfortable, fast, efficient, and unique.
You'll not regret dumping the Cerbie -- get all the engine you can in terms of Bhp coming over to the Se7ens world ;-)
Steve, my plans for another Caterham have stalled a bit. One of my chosen suppliers is no more, so I'm faced with either a compromise (never) or buying something completely different. I am still not convinced I have Cerbera ownership a fair crack of the whip and I'm considering another, although with another 4.5 litre V8 (some say, the proper engine Frankly as much fun as the Cerbie was, it ain't nothing compared to a good 200Bhp SV -- comfortable, fast, efficient, and unique.
You'll not regret dumping the Cerbie -- get all the engine you can in terms of Bhp coming over to the Se7ens world ;-)
). Or maybe a Stratos.Must admit, with the weather the way it is, it's hard to get into the right frame of mind for another Se7en.
Dave J said:
Nige - your talking about back in the day when folk built their own engines ....... ahhhhh the old 1227's......
1444's are now considered a conventional cam in K tuning and things have moved on to even more agressive profile with the 2180.
The biggest issue with the K at this revs, power and torque is that the engine flexes a lot with its through bolt design. This causes considerable wear as all the clearances vary.
It would require regular strip and rebuild depending on use to lengthen the time before inevitable destruction.
If you wnat a K series my advice would be get a K with 200/220bhp and spend money on suspension, setup and brakes and you will have as much fun but with less stress on the engine and wallet.
This whole "block flexing" story is difficult to quantify. I've not seen any evidence of it myself although some people have pointed to failed head gaskets as a consequence. I would have thought that was more the cause of the head/block interface being sub-optimal with the plastic dowels.1444's are now considered a conventional cam in K tuning and things have moved on to even more agressive profile with the 2180.
The biggest issue with the K at this revs, power and torque is that the engine flexes a lot with its through bolt design. This causes considerable wear as all the clearances vary.
It would require regular strip and rebuild depending on use to lengthen the time before inevitable destruction.
If you wnat a K series my advice would be get a K with 200/220bhp and spend money on suspension, setup and brakes and you will have as much fun but with less stress on the engine and wallet.
Mounting a K in an Elise was supposed to lead to greater flex than in a Caterham, but the Scholar block and proper balancing can lead to the K being as reliable as any other engine. Circumstantial evidence:
http://www.elise-r.co.uk/2008/02/18/steve-butts-on...
This whole "block flexing" story is difficult to quantify..
cant be arsed with a K debate thread, but picking up crank bearings, small end rod wear, pistons scuffing. The block is light ........ iots light because it doesnt have much metal on it , the whole thing is strung together with a bunch of rods from top to bottom.
its a great engine, and I have had loads of fun with them as you know. But nobody can deny that the design has limitations which are not present with other options such as Duratec. These limitations lead to significant wear.
==================
cant be arsed with a K debate thread
, but picking up crank bearings, small end rod wear, pistons scuffing. The block is light ........ iots light because it doesnt have much metal on it , the whole thing is strung together with a bunch of rods from top to bottom. its a great engine, and I have had loads of fun with them as you know. But nobody can deny that the design has limitations which are not present with other options such as Duratec. These limitations lead to significant wear.
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