Which axle info
Discussion
Ok i've read this article http://www.our-nest.co.uk/Caterham/html_files/2002...
and am considering doing the swop (considering being the operative word).
Unless I've missed it I cant see which type of axle to use The english or the Atlas
I know the english is from the Escort and the Atlas is from the Capri. Also that the Atlas is stronger. But which one will fit width wise, or are they the same width. The Atlas i believe is 52" wide but what points are these measurement taken at. Upto the inside of the brake drums on the ital axle the measurement is roughly 50"
Would there be much alteration to do on the atlas etc.
Finally, are these axles difficult and expensive to renovate.
Cheers
Tom
and am considering doing the swop (considering being the operative word).
Unless I've missed it I cant see which type of axle to use The english or the Atlas
I know the english is from the Escort and the Atlas is from the Capri. Also that the Atlas is stronger. But which one will fit width wise, or are they the same width. The Atlas i believe is 52" wide but what points are these measurement taken at. Upto the inside of the brake drums on the ital axle the measurement is roughly 50"
Would there be much alteration to do on the atlas etc.
Finally, are these axles difficult and expensive to renovate.
Cheers
Tom
I'm pretty sure it's the English axle from the Escort, the one in the article looks like one to me.
As far as I can remember the Atlas was only used in the V6 Capri's.
The Atlas will fit an Escort but can be narrowed to give a better fit.
I think the diff is a fair bit bigger on an Atlas, which may cause problems fitting it to a Caterham.
As far as I can remember the Atlas was only used in the V6 Capri's.
The Atlas will fit an Escort but can be narrowed to give a better fit.
I think the diff is a fair bit bigger on an Atlas, which may cause problems fitting it to a Caterham.
The English axle is the one to fit to a Caterham but will need the brackets welded onto the casing in the same manner as the Marina Ital ones. Its a very straightforward exchange alhough the nose of the English axle very slightly contacts the centre tunnel on the drivers side and this will require a little amount of fettling to be cleared. If you want to go the whole hog, Steve Perks (SPC) does an excellent disk brake conversion for the axle but its not cheap.
T
T
Thanks for that. It say's in Phils home page about the small modification to the tunnel.
Do you know anything about the Koln axle. This is what I've just read and wondered if the Koln type has a diff similar to the Capri (ie larger) or will one of these fit?
THE AXLE IS A KOLN TYPE WHICH IS LIKE THE TYPE FITTED TO GERMAN SWEEDISH AND AUSTRALIAN CARS.
THIS AXLE IS A DIRECT REPLACEMENT FOR THE ENGLISH TYPE SO YOU WILL NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WHEN COMING TO FIT IT IN YOUR CAR.
THE WAY TO TELL THESE AXLES APART IS THE ENGLISH TYPE AS FITED TO ALL UK VEHICLES HAS THE DIFF MOUNTED IN A SEPERATE CARRIER AND IS FITTED IN FROM THE FRONT, THE KOLN IS LIKE THE ATLAS AXLES AND HAS THE DIFF MOUNTED DIRECTLY INTO THE AXLE CARRIER FROM THE BACK.
Do you know anything about the Koln axle. This is what I've just read and wondered if the Koln type has a diff similar to the Capri (ie larger) or will one of these fit?
THE AXLE IS A KOLN TYPE WHICH IS LIKE THE TYPE FITTED TO GERMAN SWEEDISH AND AUSTRALIAN CARS.
THIS AXLE IS A DIRECT REPLACEMENT FOR THE ENGLISH TYPE SO YOU WILL NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WHEN COMING TO FIT IT IN YOUR CAR.
THE WAY TO TELL THESE AXLES APART IS THE ENGLISH TYPE AS FITED TO ALL UK VEHICLES HAS THE DIFF MOUNTED IN A SEPERATE CARRIER AND IS FITTED IN FROM THE FRONT, THE KOLN IS LIKE THE ATLAS AXLES AND HAS THE DIFF MOUNTED DIRECTLY INTO THE AXLE CARRIER FROM THE BACK.
Edited by TommyP on Monday 4th January 00:20
Tommy,
As stated an Atlas axle will not fit a caterham, no idea about the Koln but if it is of the type like an Atlas IE diff carrier is part of the axle tube rather than the banjo type (english & Ital) I suspect the diff nose will not fit the chassis.
Why are you after fitting an english axle, I only ask as by the time you have sourced an axle had all the brackets sorted, replaced your wheels as the PCD is different and all the other bits and bobs last time I priced it up you will not get much change from £1K. If you have got big torque then this is the only way to go but a well built Ital axle will take reasonable torque and close to 200bhp as long as you don't kerb jump.
Cheers
Chris
As stated an Atlas axle will not fit a caterham, no idea about the Koln but if it is of the type like an Atlas IE diff carrier is part of the axle tube rather than the banjo type (english & Ital) I suspect the diff nose will not fit the chassis.
Why are you after fitting an english axle, I only ask as by the time you have sourced an axle had all the brackets sorted, replaced your wheels as the PCD is different and all the other bits and bobs last time I priced it up you will not get much change from £1K. If you have got big torque then this is the only way to go but a well built Ital axle will take reasonable torque and close to 200bhp as long as you don't kerb jump.
Cheers
Chris
Hi Chris
I was led to believe that the ital axle wasn't upto much BHP (although 200 would be sufficient for me).
When you talk of a well built ital axle, what would that entail (I'm not too familiar with them)?
I don't have a problem with doing the work on an english axle, ie brackets etc as my mate has an engineering workshop and quite often makes custom build items for kit cars, such as the rear frame for a bike engined mini.
In fact we were discussing this afternoon the idea of doing an IRS conversion and recon we could do it for under £1500.
However then you get into the realms of which is best, Live axle, IRS, or de dion, and of course that all depends upon the main application you want the car for - track, road, sprint, drag etc
Cheers
Tom
I was led to believe that the ital axle wasn't upto much BHP (although 200 would be sufficient for me).
When you talk of a well built ital axle, what would that entail (I'm not too familiar with them)?
I don't have a problem with doing the work on an english axle, ie brackets etc as my mate has an engineering workshop and quite often makes custom build items for kit cars, such as the rear frame for a bike engined mini.
In fact we were discussing this afternoon the idea of doing an IRS conversion and recon we could do it for under £1500.
However then you get into the realms of which is best, Live axle, IRS, or de dion, and of course that all depends upon the main application you want the car for - track, road, sprint, drag etc
Cheers
Tom
Tom,
The two main issues with the Ital axle are the bearings moving under axial load (english axles also have this issue) and the planet and sun gears are relatively small and therefore will not take great loads.
To resolve the bearings moving you need to accurately measure the gap between the bearing and the hub (with the hub pressed correctly up to the oil seal shoulder) then make a shim up to suit, therefore clamping the bearing between the hub and the oil seal shoulder.
The planet and sun gear issue can be resolved in a number of ways the simplest is to fit an LSD and kill two birds with one stone. if for some reason you don't want an LSD, english planet and Sun gears can be machined to fit (physically bigger gears).
Also avaliable are:-
1. Standard pattern uprated half shafts although i'm not sure whethter these are necessary as the shafts don't tend to break because of power/torque but at the outer end due to kerb jumping on circuit.
2. Uprated CW&P with are supposed to be rated to 200Lbs torque!!!
Unless you are intending to try to put big torque through the axle I would sim the bearings, fit an LSD (I use quaife but offer types are available) and keep off the kerbs.
Cheers
Chris
The two main issues with the Ital axle are the bearings moving under axial load (english axles also have this issue) and the planet and sun gears are relatively small and therefore will not take great loads.
To resolve the bearings moving you need to accurately measure the gap between the bearing and the hub (with the hub pressed correctly up to the oil seal shoulder) then make a shim up to suit, therefore clamping the bearing between the hub and the oil seal shoulder.
The planet and sun gear issue can be resolved in a number of ways the simplest is to fit an LSD and kill two birds with one stone. if for some reason you don't want an LSD, english planet and Sun gears can be machined to fit (physically bigger gears).
Also avaliable are:-
1. Standard pattern uprated half shafts although i'm not sure whethter these are necessary as the shafts don't tend to break because of power/torque but at the outer end due to kerb jumping on circuit.
2. Uprated CW&P with are supposed to be rated to 200Lbs torque!!!
Unless you are intending to try to put big torque through the axle I would sim the bearings, fit an LSD (I use quaife but offer types are available) and keep off the kerbs.
Cheers
Chris
BDA,
Are you sure about the marina axle taking up to 200 bhp? I thought the limit was around 170 bhp although I recognise its more to do with the amount of torque being pushed through rather than sheer power. Watching the old grads cars being thrown round the circuits and curb hopping shows these axles are more duarable than some people believe!
T
Are you sure about the marina axle taking up to 200 bhp? I thought the limit was around 170 bhp although I recognise its more to do with the amount of torque being pushed through rather than sheer power. Watching the old grads cars being thrown round the circuits and curb hopping shows these axles are more duarable than some people believe!
T
T
It's all subjective. I have built an Ital recently (for someone else) that is putting up with 190+bhp and 145lbs plus of torque. This has the bearings shimmed, quaife LSD and an uprated CW&P. But I bet if you go kerb jumping on track you'll brake the half shafts at the outer end, on the end of the key way in no time at all regardless of the power or torque you put through it. The Grads are looking at uprated shafts and hubs, not because they break them through excess power but in the heat of battle they wont stay off the kerbs.Grads are bog standard at the moment except with the bearings shimmed and overfilled with oil (YOU MUST OVER FILL WITH OIL IF YOU ARE GOING ON THE TRACK)
I'm putting one together for myself as above but with new standard pattern shafts (mildly stronger) as i intend to give it a right hammering possibly autotesting or the like this year.
Cheers
Chris
It's all subjective. I have built an Ital recently (for someone else) that is putting up with 190+bhp and 145lbs plus of torque. This has the bearings shimmed, quaife LSD and an uprated CW&P. But I bet if you go kerb jumping on track you'll brake the half shafts at the outer end, on the end of the key way in no time at all regardless of the power or torque you put through it. The Grads are looking at uprated shafts and hubs, not because they break them through excess power but in the heat of battle they wont stay off the kerbs.Grads are bog standard at the moment except with the bearings shimmed and overfilled with oil (YOU MUST OVER FILL WITH OIL IF YOU ARE GOING ON THE TRACK)
I'm putting one together for myself as above but with new standard pattern shafts (mildly stronger) as i intend to give it a right hammering possibly autotesting or the like this year.
Cheers
Chris
Edited by BDA on Monday 4th January 23:38
Tango7 said:
Watching the old grads cars being thrown round the circuits and curb hopping shows these axles are more duarable than some people believe!
Errr, until the half shafts snap and the wheel falls off! 
Usually happens to a racer about once a year, as said last time I checked an upgrade was being investigated
Yep as I said above, it's kerb jumping that kills them. There is a kit including new shafts and hubs that last time I looked was being tested ready for sale to rectify this. Problem is it's still not a full floating shaft so doesn't really address the issue which is the hub bears on the shaft and not the axle tube. Therefore all the impact, tangential load when you kerb jump is providing a massive bending force to the end of the half shaft, something it was never designed to take (the english axle is a design that is just as bad if not worst). The correct way around this is to design a full floating shaft set up so all these loads are fed into the axle tube and not the shaft. Still if the grads get one failure a year of full grid, full season racing that ain't bad. I have been led to believe the new kit will be close to £1k, so I'm keeping the old stuff and staying off the kerbs.
Cheers
Chris
Cheers
Chris
Edited by BDA on Tuesday 5th January 17:02
Chris,
correct me if i've understood wrong, when you say:
"Therefore all the impact, tangential load when you kerb jump is providing a massive bending force to the end of the half shaft, something it was never designed to take (the english axle is a design that is just as bad if not worst)."
So even if you shim up and replace the CW&P for a LSD, the weak point on either axle are the ends of the half-shafts. So it seams pointless doing an axle swop from ital to escort, you might just as well do the shim and CW&P and save yourself the trouble of the swop?
With the above in mind and Kerb jumping avoided, then track surfaces are no problem for either axle.
Has anyone experienced problems (with either axle type)when hard driving on public roads? I'm thinking specifically of hitting rough uneven surfaces, over a period of time.
Cheers
Tom
correct me if i've understood wrong, when you say:
"Therefore all the impact, tangential load when you kerb jump is providing a massive bending force to the end of the half shaft, something it was never designed to take (the english axle is a design that is just as bad if not worst)."
So even if you shim up and replace the CW&P for a LSD, the weak point on either axle are the ends of the half-shafts. So it seams pointless doing an axle swop from ital to escort, you might just as well do the shim and CW&P and save yourself the trouble of the swop?
With the above in mind and Kerb jumping avoided, then track surfaces are no problem for either axle.
Has anyone experienced problems (with either axle type)when hard driving on public roads? I'm thinking specifically of hitting rough uneven surfaces, over a period of time.
Cheers
Tom
Tom,
It all depends what you want from the axle. They both, english and Ital have there limitations primarily because both of them were design to lug limited horsepower saloons around and be as cheap as possible to manufacture. The Ital is a marginally better design although the diff (CW&P, sun and planet gears) are physically bigger on the English and the half shafts are slightly bigger in dia (cannot remmeber off the top of my head how much).The way to over come the tangential loading is to convert the shafts and hubs to a full floating design. These kits are avaliable for the english axle but are expensive.
In my opinion if you have an Ital axle in a Caterham and don't have a big torque engine and are prepared to stay off the kerbs on the track the Ital (with a few easy mods)is more than capable and good value for money. If you are going to have large amounts of torque then you will probably need to convert to an English axle. Bearing in mind all sotrs of upgrades are avaliable for both axles (which can run into multilpe £K), it depends on what you want to use it for and how much you want to spend.
I have had mine (Ital) now for 15 years and it's done track work, road work,autosolos and thousands of miles across europe including the Nurburgh Ring and the Alps and it's never failed me.
If you are going to build your own let me know as there are a few tips to building a reliable axle
Cheers
Chris
It all depends what you want from the axle. They both, english and Ital have there limitations primarily because both of them were design to lug limited horsepower saloons around and be as cheap as possible to manufacture. The Ital is a marginally better design although the diff (CW&P, sun and planet gears) are physically bigger on the English and the half shafts are slightly bigger in dia (cannot remmeber off the top of my head how much).The way to over come the tangential loading is to convert the shafts and hubs to a full floating design. These kits are avaliable for the english axle but are expensive.
In my opinion if you have an Ital axle in a Caterham and don't have a big torque engine and are prepared to stay off the kerbs on the track the Ital (with a few easy mods)is more than capable and good value for money. If you are going to have large amounts of torque then you will probably need to convert to an English axle. Bearing in mind all sotrs of upgrades are avaliable for both axles (which can run into multilpe £K), it depends on what you want to use it for and how much you want to spend.
I have had mine (Ital) now for 15 years and it's done track work, road work,autosolos and thousands of miles across europe including the Nurburgh Ring and the Alps and it's never failed me.
If you are going to build your own let me know as there are a few tips to building a reliable axle
Cheers
Chris
Edited by BDA on Tuesday 5th January 18:24
Edited by BDA on Tuesday 5th January 18:38
the escort (anglish or banjo-axle) only comes in one width, whereas the atlas comes in differnt width, depending on the car fitted (e.g. cortina, capri and escort). the köln axle is like the atlas axle. there are exsting "small" and " big" köln axles. i think the "big" one is the atlas one, but not 100% sure.
both köln anbd the atlas to have a cover on the rear of the axle housing, so the diff. itself isnt so easy to cahnge as on the english axle
all ford axles have a pcd of 4x108 whereas the ital axle does have a triumph/leyland pcd
both köln anbd the atlas to have a cover on the rear of the axle housing, so the diff. itself isnt so easy to cahnge as on the english axle
all ford axles have a pcd of 4x108 whereas the ital axle does have a triumph/leyland pcd
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