Discussion
This is a very interesting subject , hope you dont mind me joining in! I cant help noticing that both within this thread and blatantly on Top Gears feature earlier this year the one thing everyone overlooked was the fact that one car was OE from the factory the other was heavily modified to 'fix' all the OE from the factory drawbacks!
So , basically arent the Roush , Steeda and Saleen cars principally each specialists take on a GT that they did not think was either fast enough or handled well enough? And each in their own way have contributed to solving the problem building great cars for a reasonable sum!
Now if we take the GT500 and apply the same principle do we not once again open the gap between the base cars? i for one found the Top Gear feature to be very light on facts and very much a dig at the GT500 when clearly they were not comparing like for like! had they put a modified GT500 in the hands of the Stig im pretty certain it would have circuited the lap of their track infinitely faster than the Roush car.
We recently imported a GT500, dealt with the handling issues , fitted a decent traction control system , put stickier tyres on , as well as a decent hike in power and this car was absolutely untouchable on the road! i would have been prepared to take just about any other Mustang on and be confident of getting to the finsih line first, granted it was not like driving a Caterham round the twisties but the lower centre of gravity and significant improvents in the cars damping / camber adjustment meant i felt confident the car could handle as well as any other modified Mustang , couple this with the anti roll bar kit fitted and the body roll was almost removed entirely!
Of course we had the obvious traction problems with so much power but with the launch control and traction system utilised to their full ability this was a GT500 that would take some beating in every dept.
Surely that is how one should be comparing cars? , like for like, if the budget is std GT500 or modified GT then a modified GT is a very good car , but will there never be any funds for fettling the GT500 ? if not then maybe the Roush or similar is a great car , but if there is then the GT500 is in a league of its own , with masses of potential and the name to go with it , no matter how much input Mr Shelby did or didnt have!
So , basically arent the Roush , Steeda and Saleen cars principally each specialists take on a GT that they did not think was either fast enough or handled well enough? And each in their own way have contributed to solving the problem building great cars for a reasonable sum!
Now if we take the GT500 and apply the same principle do we not once again open the gap between the base cars? i for one found the Top Gear feature to be very light on facts and very much a dig at the GT500 when clearly they were not comparing like for like! had they put a modified GT500 in the hands of the Stig im pretty certain it would have circuited the lap of their track infinitely faster than the Roush car.
We recently imported a GT500, dealt with the handling issues , fitted a decent traction control system , put stickier tyres on , as well as a decent hike in power and this car was absolutely untouchable on the road! i would have been prepared to take just about any other Mustang on and be confident of getting to the finsih line first, granted it was not like driving a Caterham round the twisties but the lower centre of gravity and significant improvents in the cars damping / camber adjustment meant i felt confident the car could handle as well as any other modified Mustang , couple this with the anti roll bar kit fitted and the body roll was almost removed entirely!
Of course we had the obvious traction problems with so much power but with the launch control and traction system utilised to their full ability this was a GT500 that would take some beating in every dept.
Surely that is how one should be comparing cars? , like for like, if the budget is std GT500 or modified GT then a modified GT is a very good car , but will there never be any funds for fettling the GT500 ? if not then maybe the Roush or similar is a great car , but if there is then the GT500 is in a league of its own , with masses of potential and the name to go with it , no matter how much input Mr Shelby did or didnt have!
I have to disagree. The only advantage the GT500 has is the potential to create a lot of power. It starts with a handicap of 400 lbs excess weight from it's iron block and a premium price tag courtesy of the thieving American dealer network. The theoretical advantage of bigger brakes and a 6 speed gearbox are negated to a large degree by that handicap.
Roush, Saleen and Steeda are practically manufacturers in their own right, like AMG and Alpina, and you can go out and buy one from any dealer. I don't know if Roush have given up selling cars in the UK but you could buy a Roush Mustang 427R for just under £40k in 2005.
Where your theory goes awry is that the GT500 will always be substantially more to buy than a GT. What you get is the iron block engine but practically all the suspension hardware is the same as the GT so you're going to have to apply exactly the same mods to the GT500 as the GT (more so because the handling will be hurt more by the weight). Even the interior is the same bar a couple of instruments. For that reason, the car will always ultimately spin round the nose-heavy engine and therefore limit it's abilities.
So whatever money you throw at the GT500, you will always have spent less supercharging and modifying a GT and the GT, pound for pound, will always handle better because it's lighter and has a far better weight distribution. The whole point of the Mustang has always been to go fast for little money so when you start at a higher price tag, much higher if it's been inflated by a US dealer, you're quickly going to run into higher priced cars as competitors.
The best point of the GT500 is when you cross the 500-550hp barrier because that's when the alloy engine starts to reach it's limits. From that point on, the GT500 makes sense provided you can overcome that 400lbs penalty and get a better power to weight ratio.
At higher costs, you can go to a Saleen Extreme which has forged internals in the alloy engine, produces over 550hp and still weighs less. That of course is expensive but at the moment probably not so much more expensive than GT500's inflated $20k by US dealers (even the normal Shelby GT is being inflated by $10k).
Rather like the Mustang v BMW thread, this isn't a case of knocking the GT500 but a case of comparing two cars that cost the same and for my money, that's a modified GT. If the iron block engine wasn't a disadvantage to handling, the track-oriented tuners would use it and none of them do.
Roush, Saleen and Steeda are practically manufacturers in their own right, like AMG and Alpina, and you can go out and buy one from any dealer. I don't know if Roush have given up selling cars in the UK but you could buy a Roush Mustang 427R for just under £40k in 2005.
Where your theory goes awry is that the GT500 will always be substantially more to buy than a GT. What you get is the iron block engine but practically all the suspension hardware is the same as the GT so you're going to have to apply exactly the same mods to the GT500 as the GT (more so because the handling will be hurt more by the weight). Even the interior is the same bar a couple of instruments. For that reason, the car will always ultimately spin round the nose-heavy engine and therefore limit it's abilities.
So whatever money you throw at the GT500, you will always have spent less supercharging and modifying a GT and the GT, pound for pound, will always handle better because it's lighter and has a far better weight distribution. The whole point of the Mustang has always been to go fast for little money so when you start at a higher price tag, much higher if it's been inflated by a US dealer, you're quickly going to run into higher priced cars as competitors.
The best point of the GT500 is when you cross the 500-550hp barrier because that's when the alloy engine starts to reach it's limits. From that point on, the GT500 makes sense provided you can overcome that 400lbs penalty and get a better power to weight ratio.
At higher costs, you can go to a Saleen Extreme which has forged internals in the alloy engine, produces over 550hp and still weighs less. That of course is expensive but at the moment probably not so much more expensive than GT500's inflated $20k by US dealers (even the normal Shelby GT is being inflated by $10k).
Rather like the Mustang v BMW thread, this isn't a case of knocking the GT500 but a case of comparing two cars that cost the same and for my money, that's a modified GT. If the iron block engine wasn't a disadvantage to handling, the track-oriented tuners would use it and none of them do.
HI there
I am in full agreement with Lus1fer here!
The Shelby GT500 has two major issues which you can't solve, which are the fact it weighs nearly 400lbs more than a Mustang GT and most of that extra weight is in the nose which gives the car poor weight distribution which does handling no favours.
I'd have happily put my Saleen up against your car because unless you not mentioning everything I had a lot more suspension mods to further improve handling and as such it was an incredible handling car and one that could put its power down without the need for any traction control system and my car nearly had 550BHP.
So I'd be confident my Saleen would have lapped the Top Gear track in the 1:25 - 1:26 range and no doubt quicker than your modded GT500. Also cost wise, my Saleen including modifications set me back circa £32,000 which is still hugely cheaper than a GT500 let alone a modded one.
I am in full agreement with Lus1fer here!
The Shelby GT500 has two major issues which you can't solve, which are the fact it weighs nearly 400lbs more than a Mustang GT and most of that extra weight is in the nose which gives the car poor weight distribution which does handling no favours.
I'd have happily put my Saleen up against your car because unless you not mentioning everything I had a lot more suspension mods to further improve handling and as such it was an incredible handling car and one that could put its power down without the need for any traction control system and my car nearly had 550BHP.
So I'd be confident my Saleen would have lapped the Top Gear track in the 1:25 - 1:26 range and no doubt quicker than your modded GT500. Also cost wise, my Saleen including modifications set me back circa £32,000 which is still hugely cheaper than a GT500 let alone a modded one.
Well , your points are well made, but i still think that you are ignoring the fact that there will always be people that are happy to spend a little more and buy the more desirable car, this kind of harks back to the RS days when people could buy a 3dr Cossie or an RS500 , you can pretty well make them go the same but all ends up the man with the RS500 always had the better car , the heritage , the originality. The Saleen mentioned sounds like a very impressive car but was 100hp down on our GT500, despite the weight disadvantage i would be confident in the ability of the GT500 to have held its own and in my humble opinion is a more desirable option. Of course all opinions will be divided and i respect absolutely everything that is being stated here and to some degree i prefer to feel that no one is 'right or wrong' because we all have different depths to our pockets and see things in different ways (remember being a dealer i need to relative values of all the models as not everyone will be paying GT500 money). What i do know for a fact ist the chap that bought our Shelby asked the very same question , looked at several very well modified Saleens at £20k less than he paid for the Shelby but he still bought the Shelby! You may have to ask him why , all the theories in the world are great and boy did he come armed with a truck load of theory , but once he went in the car it was a done deal! The weight and the price are big issues at the moment and maybe when things level out a bit price wise (assuming that happens at some point) then i think a lot more people will be swayed towards the Shelby and work around the weight issues with the power potential as the deciding factor!
jwr said:
Well , your points are well made, but i still think that you are ignoring the fact that there will always be people that are happy to spend a little more and buy the more desirable car
Indeed, but there are a hell of a lot more who buy GTs and modify them for a fraction of the cost! As for desirability - that's purely the perspective of the buyer. Personally speaking, I don't find the Shelby desirable, yet I could have comfortably afforded one.The biggest detractor, is again, the weight penalty. It's the one thing you can't 'tune' out of a car, you just try and compensate with more power. At the end of the day though, you can't change the rule of physics and that weight will penalise you more than the GT will.
like i said , no one is really right or wrong here, you can afford the GT500 but chose to take an alternative route, i didnt , i wanted to own and pass on one of the first decently tuned Shelbys in the UK , i think i done that to great success , power to weight ratio may have been similar when all factored in but i had a great deal of scope to go for more if i wanted. i actually wanted to retain the cars OE looks so most of the mods were under the skin and only the lower ride height and the decals really gave the game away that this was a non std Shelby. its a personal thing but for me the weight was not an issue , the car was a GT500 and in all the the right circles was respected vey much for that and drew a great deal more attention than any other Mustang in the vicinity, sure the GT500 cant shed those overweight few pounds but all the GT's will never have the badge and that does make a difference when you are weighing up all the pros and cons in some peoples minds. Perhaps we have assumed here all along that all potential Mustang buyers are looking for B road and track day handling, which is not always the case, some people are nervous at the best of times throwing a car into the twisties and get their pleasure from simple straight line performance or the drag strip.
Beemer-5 said:
The Shelby is lardy and over-expensive; that's how i'm reading all of this.
So, if someone wants a great-looking modern Mustang and has, say, £30K to spend, what should he do?
Hi thereSo, if someone wants a great-looking modern Mustang and has, say, £30K to spend, what should he do?
Get a supercharged Saleen or Roush, simple as!
Or import yourself a Mustang GT or find a bargain. Then spend about 6k adding supercharger, suspension and brakes yourself.
i agree , with that budget then the suggested models are spot on, what i am a little surprised at is just how scathing some people have been towards the Shelby when in some cases they may never have even tried the car , and certainly not had the experience of a modified one! after all we are all Mustang fans here and the Shelby is the flagship model , im quite sure that had the US market not massively inflated the prices in the early days this conversation would be very much different with loads of us cruising the streets now in GT500's costing about £30-35k OTR! Until that day i concede that to the majority the Saleens etc offer great great value, but, i for one would not be swayed and would always personally prefer the GT500 (albeit not standard) sitting on my driveway!
jwr said:
the car was a GT500 and in all the the right circles was respected vey much for that and drew a great deal more attention than any other Mustang in the vicinity.
In all the right circles? What does that mean then? People who recognise the name Shelby? That doesn't make them the cogniscienti.It's a shame that it's the name that's really the appeal, as the 'performance' certainly doesn't justify the price tag.
Still, each to their own. I'd be interested to see how the 'tuned' version fares against a modified GT on track however, though I maintain that bolting on a blower to a GT along with the other handling mods would make it the superior performer - badge engineering/marketing aside.
I don't see anything here that's scathing of the GT500 - just the concensus that you have to pay a big premium over the GT model, especially when you consider what you're actually getting for your money. Oh, that and the weight issue of course.
Ultimately, you're in the business of selling them, so I can see why the Shelby would have a wider appeal. However - there's a lot of them sitting around in the UK unsold aren't there!!
Edited by Stig on Tuesday 7th August 15:57
what it meant was , when mixing with like minded enthusiasts who knew one car from the other! perhaps you thought i meant the local Tesco car park 
As a business i am no more in the market of selling a Shelby than a Roush or indeed a standard GT , however as we are only low volume i like us to make our cars 'interesting' to the potential buyer and from my own experience am surprised at the bad press both on here and in general the Shelby gets, only 2 people ever drove our Shelby , myself and the chap that bought it - a first to see will buy scenario!
all the comments here are very interesting certainly from a future business consideration on customer feedback! and all to be taken on board, having said that to my knowledge only 2 people have driven a decently modded Shelby in the UK and we will remain the only 2 who really know just how well it goes until more make their way across the waters!
i cant comment on the numbers remaining for sale in the UK , when we had ours on offer there was certainly less than 10 unsold cars, however like a lot of things i think other attributes such as colour etc may have as much bearing on why some cars remain unsold as to the price and peoples opinion of the package! i for one think they look grotesque in Red! Lucky ours was Tungsten eh!
As a business i am no more in the market of selling a Shelby than a Roush or indeed a standard GT , however as we are only low volume i like us to make our cars 'interesting' to the potential buyer and from my own experience am surprised at the bad press both on here and in general the Shelby gets, only 2 people ever drove our Shelby , myself and the chap that bought it - a first to see will buy scenario!
all the comments here are very interesting certainly from a future business consideration on customer feedback! and all to be taken on board, having said that to my knowledge only 2 people have driven a decently modded Shelby in the UK and we will remain the only 2 who really know just how well it goes until more make their way across the waters!
i cant comment on the numbers remaining for sale in the UK , when we had ours on offer there was certainly less than 10 unsold cars, however like a lot of things i think other attributes such as colour etc may have as much bearing on why some cars remain unsold as to the price and peoples opinion of the package! i for one think they look grotesque in Red! Lucky ours was Tungsten eh!
jwr said:
i agree , with that budget then the suggested models are spot on, what i am a little surprised at is just how scathing some people have been towards the Shelby when in some cases they may never have even tried the car , and certainly not had the experience of a modified one! after all we are all Mustang fans here and the Shelby is the flagship model , im quite sure that had the US market not massively inflated the prices in the early days this conversation would be very much different with loads of us cruising the streets now in GT500's costing about £30-35k OTR! Until that day i concede that to the majority the Saleens etc offer great great value, but, i for one would not be swayed and would always personally prefer the GT500 (albeit not standard) sitting on my driveway!
Hi thereThink what people are trying to say here is that cars based on the Mustang GT with the 4.6l ALU engine like Steeda, Roush and Saleen are better handling cars down to the fact they weigh 400lbs less and have better weight distribution. So anybody with handling as a priority should not be looking at the Shelby.
If however someone wants awsome straight line speed, huge modding potential and lots of drag races then Shelby all the way.
I am not a badge fan, I buy a car on how it drives and not down to the badge it wears.
To say you can add handling mods to a Shelby is fine, but you can do the same to a GT, Roush, Saleen and Steeda too. They will always have that huge weight advantage and better weight distribution.
Its a simple fact that weight not only kills performance but hinders and decreases handling ability/potential too.
I like all Mustangs, but my favourite are the Saleens, in my view they have far more road presence than a Shelby and just look so much better. Mainly down to the 20" chrome wheels and lowered ride height. When I had my Saleen it got lots and lots of attention everywhere it went.
I love American cars, i indeed have owned a few in my time and regularly go to the USA and hook up with car fans i know there.
The local car meet at Ventura is full of high-bhp 'built' small and big- blocks.
Anyway, i fancy a Mustang, but, like a lot of people i speak to, i don't want to/can't afford to pay for ltd edition price-hiking, i want the most powerful and nicest handling/braking car i can get---at a good price!!
I accept that some will disagree here, but i am sorry, the very thought of me having to spend loads of extra money, on a car already costing £50,000, (Shelby), to get it to go and handle well is ridiculous!
Any car costing that amount should go and handle brilliantly out of the shop.
The local car meet at Ventura is full of high-bhp 'built' small and big- blocks.
Anyway, i fancy a Mustang, but, like a lot of people i speak to, i don't want to/can't afford to pay for ltd edition price-hiking, i want the most powerful and nicest handling/braking car i can get---at a good price!!
I accept that some will disagree here, but i am sorry, the very thought of me having to spend loads of extra money, on a car already costing £50,000, (Shelby), to get it to go and handle well is ridiculous!
Any car costing that amount should go and handle brilliantly out of the shop.
They're probably swear words here, but £50K buys me a 2004, mint condition, twin-turbo Porsche 911, that i have to spend nothing on once bought and it is awesome in just about every way.
That fact comes back to me, when i think of spending maybe £60K, altogether, on a Shelby.
(Hides behind sofa).
I'd love a fast Mustang, but regardless of what our dealer friend is hoping for, there is only one way Shelby values are going imo.
They'll be £35K before long.
That fact comes back to me, when i think of spending maybe £60K, altogether, on a Shelby.
(Hides behind sofa).
I'd love a fast Mustang, but regardless of what our dealer friend is hoping for, there is only one way Shelby values are going imo.
They'll be £35K before long.
Dont get me wrong , im all for the biggest bang for the smallest buck (excuse the pun) just like everyone else , the GT500 is caught up in a supply and demand situation at present that has made this discussion all the more poignant , especially for those not wishing to start with an expensive base car to work from. There will however always be those people that do otherwise why do people spend £100k+ on a car and then cahnge the wheels 
as has been mentioned all along here its personal tastes, i guess thats what makes it all so much fun , there is always at least one person willing to stand up and argue against a concensus of opinion , perhaps after just a few posts here i should not have taken on that mantle - a little more experience may be required
Great to hear all the varying issues and opinions tho and will defo bare a great deal of this in mind when arranging our next aquisition from the US. Hopefully it will be well recieved or at least conjure equal debate!
as has been mentioned all along here its personal tastes, i guess thats what makes it all so much fun , there is always at least one person willing to stand up and argue against a concensus of opinion , perhaps after just a few posts here i should not have taken on that mantle - a little more experience may be required
Great to hear all the varying issues and opinions tho and will defo bare a great deal of this in mind when arranging our next aquisition from the US. Hopefully it will be well recieved or at least conjure equal debate!
You might be right ! though bare in mind a fully loaded Shelby will cost , even with the very good financial climate at present at least £31k+ by the time you have paid everything , this assumes you have the relevant contacts to get one at book price and know the right people to import, pay for SVA parts/preparation etc. As soon as you involve UK dealers then 10% or more will be added as you would expect , at present the cars are no where near this to bring one in, so although they have levelled a bit its some time before a new car reaches what Ford intended us to pay!
By the way the Porsche is an interesting point , my buyer im sure wont mind me saying came from having an M3 CSL and 911 turbo before taking away the Mustang , yeh! he was slated by every forum he enjoyed for the decision , but as he stated , he buys a car for his own reasons , know one elses and he got very much what he wanted
By the way the Porsche is an interesting point , my buyer im sure wont mind me saying came from having an M3 CSL and 911 turbo before taking away the Mustang , yeh! he was slated by every forum he enjoyed for the decision , but as he stated , he buys a car for his own reasons , know one elses and he got very much what he wanted
jwr said:
what it meant was , when mixing with like minded enthusiasts who knew one car from the other! perhaps you thought i meant the local Tesco car park
As a business i am no more in the market of selling a Shelby than a Roush or indeed a standard GT , however as we are only low volume i like us to make our cars 'interesting' to the potential buyer and from my own experience am surprised at the bad press both on here and in general the Shelby gets, only 2 people ever drove our Shelby , myself and the chap that bought it - a first to see will buy scenario!
all the comments here are very interesting certainly from a future business consideration on customer feedback! and all to be taken on board, having said that to my knowledge only 2 people have driven a decently modded Shelby in the UK and we will remain the only 2 who really know just how well it goes until more make their way across the waters!
i cant comment on the numbers remaining for sale in the UK , when we had ours on offer there was certainly less than 10 unsold cars, however like a lot of things i think other attributes such as colour etc may have as much bearing on why some cars remain unsold as to the price and peoples opinion of the package! i for one think they look grotesque in Red! Lucky ours was Tungsten eh!
As a business i am no more in the market of selling a Shelby than a Roush or indeed a standard GT , however as we are only low volume i like us to make our cars 'interesting' to the potential buyer and from my own experience am surprised at the bad press both on here and in general the Shelby gets, only 2 people ever drove our Shelby , myself and the chap that bought it - a first to see will buy scenario!
all the comments here are very interesting certainly from a future business consideration on customer feedback! and all to be taken on board, having said that to my knowledge only 2 people have driven a decently modded Shelby in the UK and we will remain the only 2 who really know just how well it goes until more make their way across the waters!
i cant comment on the numbers remaining for sale in the UK , when we had ours on offer there was certainly less than 10 unsold cars, however like a lot of things i think other attributes such as colour etc may have as much bearing on why some cars remain unsold as to the price and peoples opinion of the package! i for one think they look grotesque in Red! Lucky ours was Tungsten eh!
by the same token, have either of those 2 people driven a modified GT or Stage 3 Roush/Saleen S281 etc. to make an objective comparison?Look, we're all on the same side here, but the common view is that you pay a big premium for the GT500 for what amounts to a bodykit and a heavier (albeit more powerful) engine. The rest is for a rather expensive badge. For some, that's the price of exclusivity, for others - it may be better spent on building a GT that can blow it into the weeds
Beemer-5 , im on your side mate , you seem to be considering all sorts from your postings around the forum, and every car mentioned is great in its own right , in the end only you will know what car fits the budget and requirements , the Shelby ios possibly not priced right now , but in time could still fit the bill! in the mean time , enjoy whatever you decide upon!
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