Discussion
Studley said:
Using an extended mag with either rate of fire, crit damage or weapon damage is dependent on your build and the situation/activity you are in.
Rate of fire for example will be of benefit in a one-on-one gun fight in the dark zone, particularly if you already have high crit damage on your smg. However, you will obviously spend more time reloading and be doing less damage per bullet than the other options.
Crit damage is really useful for high crit builds. If you have high crit chance the extra crit damage from this perk will help you deal even more damage more often.
Weapon damage is also a solid option as it gives you a set increase to the damage of every bullet. For people with low crit chance builds or weapons or where you already have insanely high crit damage this is the choice for you.
Personally I use weapon damage as I already have 54% crit chance (65% when the target is out of cover) and 188% crit damage on my AUG. With pulse I'm doing upwards of 150,000 per headshot.
Also, the DPS number in the inventory is very misleading. Pay attention to the actual damage numbers you are doing to gauge what to use - you can test this in the firing range.
For those confused about DPS and why rate of fire isn't the best (or doesn't have the biggest impact on their DPS figure) you have to remember that DPS is worked out by calculating damage deal over a minute and divided by 60 to produce DPS.
Increasing rate of fire obviously increases the amount of bullets you can fire in a minute but also increases the amount of time spent reloading. High crit chance/damage builds will almost always deal more damage over a minute.
If DPS was actually calculated by damage dealt in the first second firing then this figure would be even more broken than it is now and bolt action snipers would be showing as having over 1million DPS.
Not sure I agree with you on RoF. RoF immediately adds close to 25% to your fire rate (gold lvl 30). No other magazine mod comes close to the impact that has on metal into your target. Take a critical hit mag @ 7%. Assume you have a healthy 188% crit damage on your AUG, then it only adds on average 20% to your effective damage (288*.07), 5 percentage points below the RoF mag. Take the weapon damage mag - running at 13%, obviously below 25%. But I do use weapon dmg on my M1A as I dont usually need to fire it more than 5 rounds per second. Your overall build doesnt affect the impact of these magazines. It really is about the incremental impact of these magazines. Reload speed - when was the last time you noticed the reload speed unless you are using an LMG. In a fast moving fight you are in and out of cover, reloading on the move or behind cover. If you get to the point where you are facing an enemy and run out of ammo - dodge, roll, or switch to another weapon seem to be the obvious options. Unless your style of fighting is in your face PVP then reload speed doesnt really come in to it. OK so with high RoF you burn through your mag much quicker but, assuming accurate shooting, you are dealing a lot more damage. High crit/dmg builds will, as you say, almost always deal more dmg over a minute. But you can have a high crit/dmg build with a RoF mag too and have the best of both worlds,and deal even more damage Rate of fire for example will be of benefit in a one-on-one gun fight in the dark zone, particularly if you already have high crit damage on your smg. However, you will obviously spend more time reloading and be doing less damage per bullet than the other options.
Crit damage is really useful for high crit builds. If you have high crit chance the extra crit damage from this perk will help you deal even more damage more often.
Weapon damage is also a solid option as it gives you a set increase to the damage of every bullet. For people with low crit chance builds or weapons or where you already have insanely high crit damage this is the choice for you.
Personally I use weapon damage as I already have 54% crit chance (65% when the target is out of cover) and 188% crit damage on my AUG. With pulse I'm doing upwards of 150,000 per headshot.
Also, the DPS number in the inventory is very misleading. Pay attention to the actual damage numbers you are doing to gauge what to use - you can test this in the firing range.
For those confused about DPS and why rate of fire isn't the best (or doesn't have the biggest impact on their DPS figure) you have to remember that DPS is worked out by calculating damage deal over a minute and divided by 60 to produce DPS.
Increasing rate of fire obviously increases the amount of bullets you can fire in a minute but also increases the amount of time spent reloading. High crit chance/damage builds will almost always deal more damage over a minute.
If DPS was actually calculated by damage dealt in the first second firing then this figure would be even more broken than it is now and bolt action snipers would be showing as having over 1million DPS.
London424 said:
I'm in the stage of the game where there's no point playing on my own. I run through the hards on my own in no time at all, but can't even scrath the surface of a challenging.
I can run around in the DZ 1-4 areas with no real issues but if you come across rogues they will always be in a group so no point tackling them on your own as you just get team killed.
The drops are only really worth extracting to break down for parts, and then if anything worthwhile did drop you are again on your own with the possibility of groups killing you.
I only go on now when friends are on.
The step up from Hard to challenging is mighty big. I've had a go at solo challenging Lincoln Tunnel and got no further than 2 kills. It becomes almost a pure head shot game and you need a sniper with well over 500k+ crits. Plus copious amounts of skill. And of course it's no respawn from start to finish...I can run around in the DZ 1-4 areas with no real issues but if you come across rogues they will always be in a group so no point tackling them on your own as you just get team killed.
The drops are only really worth extracting to break down for parts, and then if anything worthwhile did drop you are again on your own with the possibility of groups killing you.
I only go on now when friends are on.
GT2CS said:
Not sure I agree with you on RoF. RoF immediately adds close to 25% to your fire rate (gold lvl 30). No other magazine mod comes close to the impact that has on metal into your target. Take a critical hit mag @ 7%. Assume you have a healthy 188% crit damage on your AUG, then it only adds on average 20% to your effective damage (288*.07), 5 percentage points below the RoF mag. Take the weapon damage mag - running at 13%, obviously below 25%. But I do use weapon dmg on my M1A as I dont usually need to fire it more than 5 rounds per second. Your overall build doesnt affect the impact of these magazines. It really is about the incremental impact of these magazines. Reload speed - when was the last time you noticed the reload speed unless you are using an LMG. In a fast moving fight you are in and out of cover, reloading on the move or behind cover. If you get to the point where you are facing an enemy and run out of ammo - dodge, roll, or switch to another weapon seem to be the obvious options. Unless your style of fighting is in your face PVP then reload speed doesnt really come in to it. OK so with high RoF you burn through your mag much quicker but, assuming accurate shooting, you are dealing a lot more damage. High crit/dmg builds will, as you say, almost always deal more dmg over a minute. But you can have a high crit/dmg build with a RoF mag too and have the best of both worlds,and deal even more damage
Honestly fire rate is the least useful.If we have an example where a gun deals 10,000 damage per bullet with a 40 round clip, having 35% crit damage (with a 65% crit chance) the weapon will deal 91,000 more damage per clip and having 15% extra weapon damage will deal 60,000 more damage per clip.
You have to remember that damage over time is the key to almost all situations in this game.
In PvP you will melt people regardless of your rate of fire just due to damage per bullet and in PvE you can do more damage over time.
GT2CS said:
London424 said:
I'm in the stage of the game where there's no point playing on my own. I run through the hards on my own in no time at all, but can't even scrath the surface of a challenging.
I can run around in the DZ 1-4 areas with no real issues but if you come across rogues they will always be in a group so no point tackling them on your own as you just get team killed.
The drops are only really worth extracting to break down for parts, and then if anything worthwhile did drop you are again on your own with the possibility of groups killing you.
I only go on now when friends are on.
The step up from Hard to challenging is mighty big. I've had a go at solo challenging Lincoln Tunnel and got no further than 2 kills. It becomes almost a pure head shot game and you need a sniper with well over 500k+ crits. Plus copious amounts of skill. And of course it's no respawn from start to finish...I can run around in the DZ 1-4 areas with no real issues but if you come across rogues they will always be in a group so no point tackling them on your own as you just get team killed.
The drops are only really worth extracting to break down for parts, and then if anything worthwhile did drop you are again on your own with the possibility of groups killing you.
I only go on now when friends are on.
Sorry mate, still dont agree. Your numbers are right but we are looking at the incremental damage - your crit chance and crit damage numbers are not connected to the magazine (well the crit chance may be part of that 65%). Whilst you are emptying the round 30 of you 40 round magazine, I have already finished my 40 rounds and your +15% dmg mag doesnt compensate for the difference. So 10k dmg, 400k per magazine - I have done 400k dmg whilst you are at round 30, having done 300k dmg. Add in your +15% weapons dmg and you have done 345k dmg. Use a 7% crit chance mag with 100% crit dmg and you add only 7% - so you would be at 321k dmg.
I then reload, you gain on me as you finish off your last 10 rounds, but then I start again and gain as you reload etc etc. Reload times will be the same as neither of us has a + reload mag. But I am going to take down an NPC with 400k damage resist before you and in so doing prevent him doing me further damage and allowing me to move on to the next target.
I then reload, you gain on me as you finish off your last 10 rounds, but then I start again and gain as you reload etc etc. Reload times will be the same as neither of us has a + reload mag. But I am going to take down an NPC with 400k damage resist before you and in so doing prevent him doing me further damage and allowing me to move on to the next target.
London424 said:
The step up is beyond a joke. I guess they just want you to team up and push you down that road, as with a team of 4 you can run through the challenging missions pretty quickly too.
I agree. I have more spare time to play than my regular gaming partners. They are just reaching LVL 30. So, as I hate playing with randoms, I am stuck with the dailys on hard and that is that. I have little or no chance of getting up to Challenging on my own.Crit damage is attached to the magazine because I'm talking about a mag which adds CRIT DAMAGE not CRIT CHANCE.
In dark zone I kill other agents in less than half a clip and would kill you before you got chance to take advantage of your fast fire rate because I'm doing huge damage with every bullet.
I was offering advice that's all - I too once thought fire rate would be better but from much experience (15 days playtime and rank 99 dz) I can attest that it is not.
Whether you decide to listen or agree I don't really care at this point - I can agree to disagree.
In dark zone I kill other agents in less than half a clip and would kill you before you got chance to take advantage of your fast fire rate because I'm doing huge damage with every bullet.
I was offering advice that's all - I too once thought fire rate would be better but from much experience (15 days playtime and rank 99 dz) I can attest that it is not.
Whether you decide to listen or agree I don't really care at this point - I can agree to disagree.
Studley said:
Crit damage is attached to the magazine because I'm talking about a mag which adds CRIT DAMAGE not CRIT CHANCE.
In dark zone I kill other agents in less than half a clip and would kill you before you got chance to take advantage of your fast fire rate because I'm doing huge damage with every bullet.
I was offering advice that's all - I too once thought fire rate would be better but from much experience (15 days playtime and rank 99 dz) I can attest that it is not.
Whether you decide to listen or agree I don't really care at this point - I can agree to disagree.
I'm sure you could kill me as you are obviously higher level, but that was not what we were talking about. In dark zone I kill other agents in less than half a clip and would kill you before you got chance to take advantage of your fast fire rate because I'm doing huge damage with every bullet.
I was offering advice that's all - I too once thought fire rate would be better but from much experience (15 days playtime and rank 99 dz) I can attest that it is not.
Whether you decide to listen or agree I don't really care at this point - I can agree to disagree.
Cool that's you prerogative to disagree from experience, but my we were trying to justify the difference by quoting numbers not 'feel'.
Apologies to everyone who doesn't care about this for the wall of text.......but maths happened.
I could just as easily say that I could dodge all of your bullets and therefore render your rate of fire meaningless and that therefore my sidearm out-DPS's you SMG. Doesn't matter what the numbers say, your DPS is 0 if you can't aim/hit your target.
I feel as though you are completely missing the point.
Firstly I have said that 'rate of fire', 'crit damage' and 'weapon damage' are all viable options depending on the weapon you are using, the build you have and the situation you are in.
(At no point did I mention the possible 'crit chance' roll on magazines - which shows you didn't even read my posts correctly)
I originally said that the one situation where rate of fire makes a difference is in a one on one engagement in the dark zone. This is assuming that both people have the same damage, health and armour AND that every bullet hits the target.
Essentially rate of fire is only better in situations where you know for certain that your target can be killed within one magazine and that you will hit all of your bullets.
The longer an engagement, or the more health a target has (i.e. PvE) the more crit damage and weapon damage out perform rate of fire, as damage over time is mathematically proven to be higher using these perks.
I really didn't want to have to go to these lengths, but;
Weapon A deals 10,000 damage per bullet, has a magazine of 40, a rate of fire of 750rpm a critical hit chance of 50% and a reload speed of 2.5 seconds (all very reasonable stats for an SMG)
Magazine 1 adds +25% rate of fire to the weapon increasing rate of fire to 937rpm. This means that the weapon fires 15.6 rounds per second.
With this attachment the weapon takes 2.56 seconds to fire 1 magazine dealing 400,000 damage or 156,250 damage per second.
7.62s to fire 2 magazines dealing 800,000 damage or 104,986 damage per second.
and 12.68 seconds to fire 3 magazines dealing 94,637 damage per second.
Magazine 2 adds +35% critical hit damage. The weapon fires at the base 750 rpm meaning it fires 12.5 rounds per second. Each magazine deals an additional 70,000 damage.
With this attachment the weapon takes 3.2 seconds to fire 1 magazine dealing 470,000 damage or 146,875 damage per second (meaning RoF out performs this by 9,375 damage per second and as I have stated makes it better for a single target IF all things are equal)
It takes 8.9 seconds to fire 2 magazines dealing 940,000 damage or 105,617 damage per second. (meaning crit damage out performs RoF by 631 damage per second after the second magazine)
It takes 14.6 seconds to fire 3 magazines dealing 1,410,000 damage or 96,575 damage per second. (meaning crit damage out performs RoF by 1,938 damage per second after 3 magazines)
Obviously the amount which this out performs rate of fire increases with each magazine fired and can increase exponentially with higher crit chance and crit damage.
Magazine 3 adds +15% weapon damage. The weapon fires at the base 750 rpm meaning it fires 12.5 rounds per second. Each magazine deals an additional 60,000 damage.
With this attachment it takes 3.2 seconds to fire 1 magazine dealing 460,000 damage or 143,750 damage per second. (meaning RoF out performs this by 12,500 damage per second).
It takes 8.9 seconds to fire 2 mags dealing 920,000 damage or 103,370 damage per second. (meaning RoF out performs this by 1,616 damage per second).
It takes 14.6 seconds to fire 3 mags dealing 1,380,000 damage or 94,520 damage per second. (meaning RoF out performs this by 117 damage per second)
After 4 mags weapon damage starts to out perform RoF and again keeps increasing.
So as stated damage over time is PROVEN to be better with both crit damage and weapon damage.
And, as I originally stated, for my circumstances, with already very high crit chance and crit damage, using + weapon damage works best for me.
The numbers don't lie.
GT2CS said:
I'm sure you could kill me as you are obviously higher level, but that was not what we were talking about.
Cool that's you prerogative to disagree from experience, but my we were trying to justify the difference by quoting numbers not 'feel'.
I was being purposely obtuse. You were the one who started talking about jumping and dodging whilst reloading as way of backing up your argument.Cool that's you prerogative to disagree from experience, but my we were trying to justify the difference by quoting numbers not 'feel'.
I could just as easily say that I could dodge all of your bullets and therefore render your rate of fire meaningless and that therefore my sidearm out-DPS's you SMG. Doesn't matter what the numbers say, your DPS is 0 if you can't aim/hit your target.
I feel as though you are completely missing the point.
Firstly I have said that 'rate of fire', 'crit damage' and 'weapon damage' are all viable options depending on the weapon you are using, the build you have and the situation you are in.
(At no point did I mention the possible 'crit chance' roll on magazines - which shows you didn't even read my posts correctly)
I originally said that the one situation where rate of fire makes a difference is in a one on one engagement in the dark zone. This is assuming that both people have the same damage, health and armour AND that every bullet hits the target.
Essentially rate of fire is only better in situations where you know for certain that your target can be killed within one magazine and that you will hit all of your bullets.
The longer an engagement, or the more health a target has (i.e. PvE) the more crit damage and weapon damage out perform rate of fire, as damage over time is mathematically proven to be higher using these perks.
I really didn't want to have to go to these lengths, but;
Weapon A deals 10,000 damage per bullet, has a magazine of 40, a rate of fire of 750rpm a critical hit chance of 50% and a reload speed of 2.5 seconds (all very reasonable stats for an SMG)
Magazine 1 adds +25% rate of fire to the weapon increasing rate of fire to 937rpm. This means that the weapon fires 15.6 rounds per second.
With this attachment the weapon takes 2.56 seconds to fire 1 magazine dealing 400,000 damage or 156,250 damage per second.
7.62s to fire 2 magazines dealing 800,000 damage or 104,986 damage per second.
and 12.68 seconds to fire 3 magazines dealing 94,637 damage per second.
Magazine 2 adds +35% critical hit damage. The weapon fires at the base 750 rpm meaning it fires 12.5 rounds per second. Each magazine deals an additional 70,000 damage.
With this attachment the weapon takes 3.2 seconds to fire 1 magazine dealing 470,000 damage or 146,875 damage per second (meaning RoF out performs this by 9,375 damage per second and as I have stated makes it better for a single target IF all things are equal)
It takes 8.9 seconds to fire 2 magazines dealing 940,000 damage or 105,617 damage per second. (meaning crit damage out performs RoF by 631 damage per second after the second magazine)
It takes 14.6 seconds to fire 3 magazines dealing 1,410,000 damage or 96,575 damage per second. (meaning crit damage out performs RoF by 1,938 damage per second after 3 magazines)
Obviously the amount which this out performs rate of fire increases with each magazine fired and can increase exponentially with higher crit chance and crit damage.
Magazine 3 adds +15% weapon damage. The weapon fires at the base 750 rpm meaning it fires 12.5 rounds per second. Each magazine deals an additional 60,000 damage.
With this attachment it takes 3.2 seconds to fire 1 magazine dealing 460,000 damage or 143,750 damage per second. (meaning RoF out performs this by 12,500 damage per second).
It takes 8.9 seconds to fire 2 mags dealing 920,000 damage or 103,370 damage per second. (meaning RoF out performs this by 1,616 damage per second).
It takes 14.6 seconds to fire 3 mags dealing 1,380,000 damage or 94,520 damage per second. (meaning RoF out performs this by 117 damage per second)
After 4 mags weapon damage starts to out perform RoF and again keeps increasing.
So as stated damage over time is PROVEN to be better with both crit damage and weapon damage.
And, as I originally stated, for my circumstances, with already very high crit chance and crit damage, using + weapon damage works best for me.
The numbers don't lie.
Edited by Studley on Monday 25th April 21:31
Edited by Studley on Monday 25th April 21:34
Thanks for the full explanation. That's what I was after. Much appreciated. I assume from your numbers that you are assuming a 50% critical chance to go with your 35% crit dmg. TBH, I was only looking at it on a 1 magazine basis, which is not really reflective of real game play.
Certainly for lower level players, RoF could be the way to go as it is available as a purple with +24%, whereas lower level players, as far as I know, will not have access to +15% weapon damage magazines or +35% crit damage magazines, and are unlikely to have +50% critical chance stats to make the most of such a magazine. As you level up and get access to the higher gear, then these would seem to be the way to go.
Certainly for lower level players, RoF could be the way to go as it is available as a purple with +24%, whereas lower level players, as far as I know, will not have access to +15% weapon damage magazines or +35% crit damage magazines, and are unlikely to have +50% critical chance stats to make the most of such a magazine. As you level up and get access to the higher gear, then these would seem to be the way to go.
GT2CS said:
Thanks for the full explanation. That's what I was after. Much appreciated. I assume from your numbers that you are assuming a 50% critical chance to go with your 35% crit dmg. TBH, I was only looking at it on a 1 magazine basis, which is not really reflective of real game play.
Certainly for lower level players, RoF could be the way to go as it is available as a purple with +24%, whereas lower level players, as far as I know, will not have access to +15% weapon damage magazines or +35% crit damage magazines, and are unlikely to have +50% critical chance stats to make the most of such a magazine. As you level up and get access to the higher gear, then these would seem to be the way to go.
No problem.Certainly for lower level players, RoF could be the way to go as it is available as a purple with +24%, whereas lower level players, as far as I know, will not have access to +15% weapon damage magazines or +35% crit damage magazines, and are unlikely to have +50% critical chance stats to make the most of such a magazine. As you level up and get access to the higher gear, then these would seem to be the way to go.
Yes, I am talking end-game theory as that is where the game really begins - especially in terms of min/maxing (or should be if the dev's haven't completely killed it yet!!).
Yeah a 50% crit chance is easy to attain on a high-end SMG with their native crit chance plus perks from armour. It should be what any SMG user is aiming for as a minimum.
Came up against a group of 12 year olds all dz level 75+ hammered them while rogue on a 4 on 4 , cleared our timer and then began farming as normal.
Run into these kids again and they get the jump on 2 of us and end up killing our full team while shouting the usual 12 year old trash talk, so we begin hunting them, find them and they've glitched through a wall in dz2 shouting down the mic.
Found them outside the glitch and they went rogue on us again, got the drop on us and we absolutely smashed them, all while being lowel level with worse gear.
The games glitches just get worse and worse, these clowns go rogue constantly and glitch into the walls so no one can get them, they stopped chasing me because I ran out of dz2 were the area with the glitch is and would actually have to use skill to fight their way through the game.
Run into these kids again and they get the jump on 2 of us and end up killing our full team while shouting the usual 12 year old trash talk, so we begin hunting them, find them and they've glitched through a wall in dz2 shouting down the mic.
Found them outside the glitch and they went rogue on us again, got the drop on us and we absolutely smashed them, all while being lowel level with worse gear.
The games glitches just get worse and worse, these clowns go rogue constantly and glitch into the walls so no one can get them, they stopped chasing me because I ran out of dz2 were the area with the glitch is and would actually have to use skill to fight their way through the game.
One think that is really annoying me lately, I want to go into the dark zone, not really knowing it too well and being low level I want to squad up. So I go into the matchmaking, it finds me a squad and goes through all the loading screens to get me too them.
I then arrive to a message saying "you have been kicked from the squad" a little annoying, so back into matchmake I go to find another squad to join and I get "you cannot matchmake from inside the dark zone"! For some reason it always transfers me to a safehouse dead centre of the zone, So I have to trudge out via a checkpoint to start match making again.
Happened to me 5 times in a row last night before I got a squad that didn't kick me.
(I've added all the PH names from the PS4 thread, but no-one was online to squad with)
I then arrive to a message saying "you have been kicked from the squad" a little annoying, so back into matchmake I go to find another squad to join and I get "you cannot matchmake from inside the dark zone"! For some reason it always transfers me to a safehouse dead centre of the zone, So I have to trudge out via a checkpoint to start match making again.
Happened to me 5 times in a row last night before I got a squad that didn't kick me.
(I've added all the PH names from the PS4 thread, but no-one was online to squad with)
lovechild said:
(
)and
dalzo said:
The games glitches just get worse and worse, these clowns go rogue constantly and glitch into the walls so no one can get them
(
)is probably why
Buzz84 said:
(I've added all the PH names from the PS4 thread, but no-one was online to squad with)
I've certainly stopped playing with any real intent. The penny dropped for me when I had to glitch into a wall to find some manhunt rogues. I just thought, WTF am I doing?! 
Coupled with the perception (whether right or wrong) that almost every talent/perk is broken to the extent that some do the precise opposite of what they are supposed to do and the fact that we're fully geared (all around 275 DPS/85 Health/16 SP) means we're bored and have nothing to play for and no will to play content for the sake of it... because it is so bugged. The kernel of a great game is in there and I'll certainly log in to check out the next incursion. But they'll have to do something radically different to keep people coming back after that- as I suspected, longevity is an issue. I'm glad I've held out from buying the season pass.
For now, I'll do other things and play Rocket League. Somebody mentioned Overwatch on the horizon. That looks promising. Also saw the trailer for Unchartered 4 during the adverts for GoT last night. As always, that looks spectacular.
lovechild said:
Good grief, that really takes the biscuit doesn't it? 
Move along and roll on the next game (Uncharted 4 probably)
Gassing Station | Video Games | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff