New PC racing sim - Assetto Corsa
Discussion
MagicalTrevor said:
allama699 said:
Hi all.
I am a proud owner of an Oculus Rift, Logitech G27 and Assetto Corsa. All I can say is, if you are thinking about trying this combo, then do. In my opinion It's one of the most amazing experiences you can legally lay your hands on. As soon as you put it on(Headphones are a must), you are taken away to the most realistic representation of a car sim ever created. It really has to be tried to be believed. I am not usually a lover of car games, and certainly no Pistonhead, but i was compelled to drive to Curry's yesterday and buy the G27 Wheel/pedal combo. My office is now cluttered with peripherals for games that work with the Rift. Elite Dangerous is another winner. Maybe too geeky for this forum?
The Rift however does have a few issues.
1: Its a development kit. This will require bespoke configuration for most current games. It's worth it, trust me.
2: The draw distance isnt perfect, and cars, corners etc, can tend to be in your face before you know it(This of course has a lot to do with my driving).
3: The menu system isnt viewable within the Rift. You will have to take off the Rift, and view the menu on your second monitor. You can achieve the same results with 1 monitor, but that would require powering off the Rift mid game, and semi-crashing the game.
4:Any keyboard use is difficult, due to you wearing the Rift. This can me overcome with a bit of software called Voice Attack. You can map keystrokes to voice commands. One of the essentials is to map a voice command to CTRL and Space. This re-centres the Rift.
Even with it's downside, i would still say to anyone, get one now. Even my girlfriend was impressed, and I think she even cracked a smile. Anyway, she's dead to me now I have the Rift
I hope this helps.
Welcome! Thanks for that. I'm about to build another cockpit, the option is 3x1080p monitors (takes up a lot of room) or give the DK2 a go.I am a proud owner of an Oculus Rift, Logitech G27 and Assetto Corsa. All I can say is, if you are thinking about trying this combo, then do. In my opinion It's one of the most amazing experiences you can legally lay your hands on. As soon as you put it on(Headphones are a must), you are taken away to the most realistic representation of a car sim ever created. It really has to be tried to be believed. I am not usually a lover of car games, and certainly no Pistonhead, but i was compelled to drive to Curry's yesterday and buy the G27 Wheel/pedal combo. My office is now cluttered with peripherals for games that work with the Rift. Elite Dangerous is another winner. Maybe too geeky for this forum?
The Rift however does have a few issues.
1: Its a development kit. This will require bespoke configuration for most current games. It's worth it, trust me.
2: The draw distance isnt perfect, and cars, corners etc, can tend to be in your face before you know it(This of course has a lot to do with my driving).
3: The menu system isnt viewable within the Rift. You will have to take off the Rift, and view the menu on your second monitor. You can achieve the same results with 1 monitor, but that would require powering off the Rift mid game, and semi-crashing the game.
4:Any keyboard use is difficult, due to you wearing the Rift. This can me overcome with a bit of software called Voice Attack. You can map keystrokes to voice commands. One of the essentials is to map a voice command to CTRL and Space. This re-centres the Rift.
Even with it's downside, i would still say to anyone, get one now. Even my girlfriend was impressed, and I think she even cracked a smile. Anyway, she's dead to me now I have the Rift
I hope this helps.
MT: I'm running three 24" monitors and a G27. I did the maths and thought long and hard about the width of them all, but love it - very immersive compared to my old 4:3 setup.
If you are looking to see the game in its full HD glory then a 3 screen setup is probably for you. Due to the limitations of the display in DK2, the game probably looks more like a good PS2(early PS3) version. This however is a minor point, as the immersion takes you to a place that's unmatched by any HD experience. The DK2 is selling for $470 including tax and shipping. I think if you can afford it, buy both. The lead time on the order however is about 2-3 months.
Answering the question now regarding motion sickness.
I have tried many of the games and demo's available. In my experience, any game where you are in a seated position, you not experience any sickness. However, when playing Half-Life 2, I had to stop after 5 minutes. This is slightly better in games like Alien Isolation.
Lag issues are almost non existent. Im not running an amazing rig. Just a £150 Radeon graphics(Can't remember model(at work now), but very recent from Overclockers), with a 3 year old Corei7 with 6 Gigs of RAM.
I would say, if not sure, have a demo.
https://www.facebook.com/events/714148045281143/?f...
Enjoy, and I hope this helps.
Andy
Answering the question now regarding motion sickness.
I have tried many of the games and demo's available. In my experience, any game where you are in a seated position, you not experience any sickness. However, when playing Half-Life 2, I had to stop after 5 minutes. This is slightly better in games like Alien Isolation.
Lag issues are almost non existent. Im not running an amazing rig. Just a £150 Radeon graphics(Can't remember model(at work now), but very recent from Overclockers), with a 3 year old Corei7 with 6 Gigs of RAM.
I would say, if not sure, have a demo.
https://www.facebook.com/events/714148045281143/?f...
Enjoy, and I hope this helps.
Andy
RobM77 said:
MagicalTrevor said:
Every display will have lag to some extent. The DK1 supposedly suffered from this, the DK2 is much better.
I believe that some people still notice it on the DK2 but only very few.
Ok, that's pretty positive then I believe that some people still notice it on the DK2 but only very few.
I can't be 100% but that is how it read when I last looked, which seemed sensible given the problem at hand.
It certainly seems to remove a big chunk of the 'gap' between the frame being finished and the time it takes to get to your head which may have since moved, and be rendered onto the screens.
Cheers
Dave
Don't know if this place are any good or not but just found them on google.
DK2 hire (although doesn't sound like they're in stock yet) for £22 a day and £10 extra for each day after that.
Doesn't sound a terrible amount if you just want to hire for a couple of days to try it out
http://virtuallymine.co.uk/oculus-rift-dk2/
DK2 hire (although doesn't sound like they're in stock yet) for £22 a day and £10 extra for each day after that.
Doesn't sound a terrible amount if you just want to hire for a couple of days to try it out
http://virtuallymine.co.uk/oculus-rift-dk2/
Edited by andrewrob on Friday 31st October 10:42
Thanks for all the OR information. I’d love to try it, although it’d be a fair way to travel for 5 minutes if FPSs cause motion sickness! I’ll certainly watch it with interest.
Dave: Very interesting to read your thoughts on AC. There are indeed some quite odd aspects that aren’t very realistic, especially the gearchanges and clutch as you mention. In real life, every straight cut dog box that I’ve used will handle clutchless shifts, in fact it’s better for such a gearbox to not use the clutch on upshifts (there’s a guide to gearchanging on the Hewland website that I follow). I’m assuming that the Lotus 49 for example has a ‘box like this, so in that sense AC is not realistic. It’s very strange for them not to model this – in fact the whole clutch/gearchange bits seem to have been lifted straight from AC’s inferior (but still brilliant) predecessor NetKar (which mainly modelled racing cars – note how all of AC’s clutches react like a racing clutch rather than a more forgiving road clutch). Equally, yes, as you rightly say, when you put a wheel on the grass in real life the steering wheel does not go crazy in yours hands – the worst thing is the car running over rough ground when it might bounce a bit. However, I do find that most of these shortcomings are in areas aside from fast lapping, or things you can easily change without much distraction (I find changing gear in the 49 like I would in a road car quite natural, as sadly I do drive road cars more than racing cars) – the actual way the cars drive when lapping flat out on the track, doing what’s expected (99.99% of my time with AC) I find very realistic.
It’s a shame that Kunos are clearly having to pander to the gamer market rather than a 100% simulation, which is obvious from the number of road cars they model, but the sim/game has to be a commercial success I suppose and it is in fact very good as a sim (for the driving fast bits). Assetto Corsa is by far the best sim I’ve tried and I much prefer it to RFactor, which never really felt quite right to me. iRacing is good, but again there are some things that don’t feel quite right. For AC to feel spot on when fast lapping is great, and I can forgive it for not modelling driving on the grass or crawling along slipping the clutch very well.
The other thing I like about AC is the large number of properly modelled cars and tracks – gamer created cars in RFactor were usually pretty naff, and you had no way of knowing how well the creator had modelled everything, but RFactor came with so few standard cars that you were stuck with the inferior mods off the web most of the time – ok for a game, but not good enough for a simulation. At least with AC we have a large selection of cars that Kunos have modelled well and a large selection of tracks that they’ve laser scanned properly.
Having said all that though, the Lotus 2-Eleven in AC, which I own in real life, is 95% there, but there is something not quite right about it – it feels like a real car in AC and if you’d never driven one in real life you’d be happy, but if you compare it directly to the real car, it’s a bit too stable through the corners. I do wonder though if that’s just because in real life I feel and react to a lot more perturbations in the real car than I can in the sim, and/or the track surface may have more undulations and roughness to it (and this lack of feeling is why I crash in AC about once a week, but I’ve never crashed in real life – because I prevent most ‘moments’ before they happen because you can feel them develop underneath you). I’d need to speak to Kunos and spend more time with datalogging etc to get to the bottom of it, and for now I’m not sure if it’s AC or just my lack of actually being in the car, which no sim will ever re-create. If you search for my name on You Tube you’ll find videos of me driving the 2-Eleven at Silverstone, and as you can see, it needs quite a bit of correction mid corner, but the sim lacks that tendency (in fact someone’s done a side by side comparison comparing a real lap of mine with AC). The real car also heats its tyres up differently, but I know AC are working on that.
Dave: Very interesting to read your thoughts on AC. There are indeed some quite odd aspects that aren’t very realistic, especially the gearchanges and clutch as you mention. In real life, every straight cut dog box that I’ve used will handle clutchless shifts, in fact it’s better for such a gearbox to not use the clutch on upshifts (there’s a guide to gearchanging on the Hewland website that I follow). I’m assuming that the Lotus 49 for example has a ‘box like this, so in that sense AC is not realistic. It’s very strange for them not to model this – in fact the whole clutch/gearchange bits seem to have been lifted straight from AC’s inferior (but still brilliant) predecessor NetKar (which mainly modelled racing cars – note how all of AC’s clutches react like a racing clutch rather than a more forgiving road clutch). Equally, yes, as you rightly say, when you put a wheel on the grass in real life the steering wheel does not go crazy in yours hands – the worst thing is the car running over rough ground when it might bounce a bit. However, I do find that most of these shortcomings are in areas aside from fast lapping, or things you can easily change without much distraction (I find changing gear in the 49 like I would in a road car quite natural, as sadly I do drive road cars more than racing cars) – the actual way the cars drive when lapping flat out on the track, doing what’s expected (99.99% of my time with AC) I find very realistic.
It’s a shame that Kunos are clearly having to pander to the gamer market rather than a 100% simulation, which is obvious from the number of road cars they model, but the sim/game has to be a commercial success I suppose and it is in fact very good as a sim (for the driving fast bits). Assetto Corsa is by far the best sim I’ve tried and I much prefer it to RFactor, which never really felt quite right to me. iRacing is good, but again there are some things that don’t feel quite right. For AC to feel spot on when fast lapping is great, and I can forgive it for not modelling driving on the grass or crawling along slipping the clutch very well.
The other thing I like about AC is the large number of properly modelled cars and tracks – gamer created cars in RFactor were usually pretty naff, and you had no way of knowing how well the creator had modelled everything, but RFactor came with so few standard cars that you were stuck with the inferior mods off the web most of the time – ok for a game, but not good enough for a simulation. At least with AC we have a large selection of cars that Kunos have modelled well and a large selection of tracks that they’ve laser scanned properly.
Having said all that though, the Lotus 2-Eleven in AC, which I own in real life, is 95% there, but there is something not quite right about it – it feels like a real car in AC and if you’d never driven one in real life you’d be happy, but if you compare it directly to the real car, it’s a bit too stable through the corners. I do wonder though if that’s just because in real life I feel and react to a lot more perturbations in the real car than I can in the sim, and/or the track surface may have more undulations and roughness to it (and this lack of feeling is why I crash in AC about once a week, but I’ve never crashed in real life – because I prevent most ‘moments’ before they happen because you can feel them develop underneath you). I’d need to speak to Kunos and spend more time with datalogging etc to get to the bottom of it, and for now I’m not sure if it’s AC or just my lack of actually being in the car, which no sim will ever re-create. If you search for my name on You Tube you’ll find videos of me driving the 2-Eleven at Silverstone, and as you can see, it needs quite a bit of correction mid corner, but the sim lacks that tendency (in fact someone’s done a side by side comparison comparing a real lap of mine with AC). The real car also heats its tyres up differently, but I know AC are working on that.
Edited by RobM77 on Friday 31st October 10:39
Yeah I kinda agree.
For for a fast lap and the issues melt away mostly.
But for me if you're gonna call it a sim then simmers will care about details.
Cripes, who even plays games when you can do stuff in real life? Truth is that we can't because it costs oodles of money, but we'd like to think we're getting an experience close to reality and it's all those details that make us feel part of the reality.
Having cars that do things that they don't in real life, or vice versa, just breaks the illusion.
Having a car look like a LaFerrari, and have a bar that goes blue when you accelerate, and sounds about right, is great. But if it doesn't actually DRIVE like the real one, and do what the real one does in some conditions, then you may as well be driving any old made up fantasy car.
Well for me at least I may as well. Sticking a badge on it from the real car doesn't make the sim version of it just like the real one.
So it's these details that just ruin AC for me.
I'd expect the LaFerrari to have actual CST modes that interact with the ESP, ABS, TCS, regen, aero aids, engine sounds, whatever. But all we get is 4 generic TCS modes that just let the wheels slip more before cutting the throttle.
I bet the AC LaFerrari just uses a generic differential too, not an e-diff with simulated systems and various modes.
And they want to bring the Nissan GTR to AC too. A car with a hugely integrated AWD system, electronics and so on.
I just start to question how much detail is really going into the physics, and how much is just tuned to feel about right in a static sense, throw on a few TCS modes, and job done.
Yeah, this car is set for track use in R mode, so no ESP... even though the ESP might still function for yaw control at the front tyres or something.
Sorry to sound so negative, but AC was meant to be just amazing and so far I'm struggling to see the depth in any particular car going beyond superficial details.
If they are, they are not proving it or promoting it... and even that is kinda unforgivable for someone selling something as the ultimate simulation for the cars on offer
Underneath it may be no better than GT6 for example. We have no idea. But it's sold as so much more!
Dave
For for a fast lap and the issues melt away mostly.
But for me if you're gonna call it a sim then simmers will care about details.
Cripes, who even plays games when you can do stuff in real life? Truth is that we can't because it costs oodles of money, but we'd like to think we're getting an experience close to reality and it's all those details that make us feel part of the reality.
Having cars that do things that they don't in real life, or vice versa, just breaks the illusion.
Having a car look like a LaFerrari, and have a bar that goes blue when you accelerate, and sounds about right, is great. But if it doesn't actually DRIVE like the real one, and do what the real one does in some conditions, then you may as well be driving any old made up fantasy car.
Well for me at least I may as well. Sticking a badge on it from the real car doesn't make the sim version of it just like the real one.
So it's these details that just ruin AC for me.
I'd expect the LaFerrari to have actual CST modes that interact with the ESP, ABS, TCS, regen, aero aids, engine sounds, whatever. But all we get is 4 generic TCS modes that just let the wheels slip more before cutting the throttle.
I bet the AC LaFerrari just uses a generic differential too, not an e-diff with simulated systems and various modes.
And they want to bring the Nissan GTR to AC too. A car with a hugely integrated AWD system, electronics and so on.
I just start to question how much detail is really going into the physics, and how much is just tuned to feel about right in a static sense, throw on a few TCS modes, and job done.
Yeah, this car is set for track use in R mode, so no ESP... even though the ESP might still function for yaw control at the front tyres or something.
Sorry to sound so negative, but AC was meant to be just amazing and so far I'm struggling to see the depth in any particular car going beyond superficial details.
If they are, they are not proving it or promoting it... and even that is kinda unforgivable for someone selling something as the ultimate simulation for the cars on offer
Underneath it may be no better than GT6 for example. We have no idea. But it's sold as so much more!
Dave
You make some very good points. I guess these problems are caused because the core sim is based on NetKar, a pure racing simulator of Formula Fords etc (which are basic cars without trick diffs, electronic stability control etc), but to be commercially viable they have to model a whole host of road cars, all of which have different electronics attached to them. It would be a very large and probably commercially unviable amount of work to model the road cars to that degree, and I suppose Kunos have made the decision to just model the pure car handling, rather than the extraneous things like ABS, TC, DSC etc. It doesn’t make it a full sim, but I suspect most people who care about the simulation aspects of AC do what I do and either avoid the road cars altogether, or turn all the driver aids off when I drive them. It’s a compromise, but a necessary one I suspect. I bought AC for a small handful of cars, but I suspect I’m in the minority.
However, as you rightly point out with your example of e-Diffs, I suspect it goes further than just the stability control. Another example (and one which you would know more about, so correct me if I’m wrong) could be throttle control: many modern cars don’t translate throttle pedal position to throttle position on the engine, instead with the pedal you’re demanding an output and the engine fuels itself to generate that. This might be of course why you got an odd response flooring the Ferrari in 7th gear at low speed – in that situation part throttle might generate more power than full throttle with a traditional cable throttle car, but of course in a modern car that’s not the case. I suspect a lot of this detail isn’t just onerous to model, it’s actually not available to third parties – to return to your example, I can’t see Ferrari handing over the source code for their e-diff control unit!
As for the physics, all we can do on that front is trust them. The cars certainly feel very good and to my judgement more realistic than RFactor or iRacing, and certainly more realistic than Gran Turismo
So in summary AC is a simulation, but it can only go so far because of commercial constraints. That’s a shame, but thankfully for me I’m only interested in the racing cars and the older ‘analogue’ cars so it doesn’t worry me. It’s a very valid point that you make though. I suspect if we paid £500 to £1000 each we could have a true simulation of one or two cars, but to make something that sells for £35 and appeals to the mass market must be very hard indeed and there’s always a balance to be struck between commercial requirements and accuracy. We made find in the future that Kunos do what the makers of RFactor and Arma II have done, which is to make a ‘professional’ version with more detail in it available for a greater price.
However, as you rightly point out with your example of e-Diffs, I suspect it goes further than just the stability control. Another example (and one which you would know more about, so correct me if I’m wrong) could be throttle control: many modern cars don’t translate throttle pedal position to throttle position on the engine, instead with the pedal you’re demanding an output and the engine fuels itself to generate that. This might be of course why you got an odd response flooring the Ferrari in 7th gear at low speed – in that situation part throttle might generate more power than full throttle with a traditional cable throttle car, but of course in a modern car that’s not the case. I suspect a lot of this detail isn’t just onerous to model, it’s actually not available to third parties – to return to your example, I can’t see Ferrari handing over the source code for their e-diff control unit!
As for the physics, all we can do on that front is trust them. The cars certainly feel very good and to my judgement more realistic than RFactor or iRacing, and certainly more realistic than Gran Turismo
So in summary AC is a simulation, but it can only go so far because of commercial constraints. That’s a shame, but thankfully for me I’m only interested in the racing cars and the older ‘analogue’ cars so it doesn’t worry me. It’s a very valid point that you make though. I suspect if we paid £500 to £1000 each we could have a true simulation of one or two cars, but to make something that sells for £35 and appeals to the mass market must be very hard indeed and there’s always a balance to be struck between commercial requirements and accuracy. We made find in the future that Kunos do what the makers of RFactor and Arma II have done, which is to make a ‘professional’ version with more detail in it available for a greater price.
Edited by RobM77 on Friday 31st October 15:24
Yeah that's it.
For driving the racing cars, which generally use rose jointed everything, no bushings, no driving aids, no integrated electronics, active dampers, yadda yadda, then AC feels very convincing.
The inclusion of hyper road cars though, with even simple systems like DSG boxes or whatever, need to work at least half right for it to be taken seriously.
If AC had just been race cars I'd have been more convinced of the package at this point.
But to be unfair, in interviews they've mentioned the integrated systems on these cars and how they've taken time and pleasure in getting them right... but I'm not convinced they are any more 'right' than what we'd see in something like GT5 or Forza etc.
Again I'm happy to be proven wrong but too many things point to it being the case.
So maybe as a racing car game it'll be more of a success, but even in that regard some missing features like pit stops seem a bit sad.
I really want the best from it but it seems the best is to come after the initial release. But if DLC isn't popular and most of their turnover has come during pre-release sales, then will there be money to make AC what it really needs to be?
Hmmmm. Just all my 2p from tinkering with sims and stuff over the years. I've seen too many sims say they're the best sim ever to not actually be when you dig under the skin... while lesser stuff which pretends to be nothing of a sim can actually be more convincing than you'd imagine!
Dave
For driving the racing cars, which generally use rose jointed everything, no bushings, no driving aids, no integrated electronics, active dampers, yadda yadda, then AC feels very convincing.
The inclusion of hyper road cars though, with even simple systems like DSG boxes or whatever, need to work at least half right for it to be taken seriously.
If AC had just been race cars I'd have been more convinced of the package at this point.
But to be unfair, in interviews they've mentioned the integrated systems on these cars and how they've taken time and pleasure in getting them right... but I'm not convinced they are any more 'right' than what we'd see in something like GT5 or Forza etc.
Again I'm happy to be proven wrong but too many things point to it being the case.
So maybe as a racing car game it'll be more of a success, but even in that regard some missing features like pit stops seem a bit sad.
I really want the best from it but it seems the best is to come after the initial release. But if DLC isn't popular and most of their turnover has come during pre-release sales, then will there be money to make AC what it really needs to be?
Hmmmm. Just all my 2p from tinkering with sims and stuff over the years. I've seen too many sims say they're the best sim ever to not actually be when you dig under the skin... while lesser stuff which pretends to be nothing of a sim can actually be more convincing than you'd imagine!
Dave
The 430 I drove it AC felt amazingly close to the one I drove in RL.
Hopping into an E30 BMW felt entirely different. The steering was physically (feedback through a G25) heavier, and felt like there was genuine weight on the front wheels.
Moan all you like about the finer details, I'm just happy they've managed what they have; which, given the state of most 'sims' out there, is a f*cking huge step forwards from the pack. And to dismiss the entire game / sim because the throttle response on your fav supercar doesnt feel like you read about in a technical document once... well. Nerds will be nerds. Go do something else instead.
Hopping into an E30 BMW felt entirely different. The steering was physically (feedback through a G25) heavier, and felt like there was genuine weight on the front wheels.
Moan all you like about the finer details, I'm just happy they've managed what they have; which, given the state of most 'sims' out there, is a f*cking huge step forwards from the pack. And to dismiss the entire game / sim because the throttle response on your fav supercar doesnt feel like you read about in a technical document once... well. Nerds will be nerds. Go do something else instead.
trashbat said:
I also tried the McLaren P1 last night for the first time when pissing about, admittedly with no traction control, and could barely hold it in a straight line, which is a world apart from the cars mentioned above.
As for the game, I am really enjoying it. I can sort of understand where the arguments against it are coming from but I don't think we can really expect any of the major manufacturers to allow developers access to the real underlying TC and diff software as they are trade secrets.
Coming from Forza on the xbox AC is a revelation physics wise.
I would like to know RobM77's (and Mr Whippy's) view of rFactor2.
There is a new demo for it now with FR3.5 and Covette cars, replacing the torque-steer 'tastic BTCC Civic from the previous demo.
I think AC has the better car behaviour overall, but rF2 has much better FFB.
The FR3.5 is a fantastic drive.
There is a new demo for it now with FR3.5 and Covette cars, replacing the torque-steer 'tastic BTCC Civic from the previous demo.
I think AC has the better car behaviour overall, but rF2 has much better FFB.
The FR3.5 is a fantastic drive.
I've been driving AC quite a lot recently after the version 1.0 release, I have to say that it's easily the best sim I've tried.
Regarding driving aids being correctly simulated - they really don't interest me as I prefer not to use them. TBH, simulating those seems rather pointless, I think they've quite rightly put their attention into the tyre model and overall vehicle dynamics.
I compared it back-to-back with rFactor 2 and AC is better in every respect IMO.
Driving the SLS GT3 at Spa is about the best simulated experience I've encountered, the car responds exactly as you would expect.
I'm looking forward to the official Sauber C9 release and the unofficial Mazda 787B, I can see some great WSC battles at Le Mans in those!
Regarding driving aids being correctly simulated - they really don't interest me as I prefer not to use them. TBH, simulating those seems rather pointless, I think they've quite rightly put their attention into the tyre model and overall vehicle dynamics.
I compared it back-to-back with rFactor 2 and AC is better in every respect IMO.
Driving the SLS GT3 at Spa is about the best simulated experience I've encountered, the car responds exactly as you would expect.
I'm looking forward to the official Sauber C9 release and the unofficial Mazda 787B, I can see some great WSC battles at Le Mans in those!
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