New PC racing sim - Assetto Corsa
Discussion
FourWheelDrift said:
SlipStream77 said:
FWD, do you have a link to the D-Type mod please? I can only find a payware one.
Ps. YHM
Edited to add..
You're right, that looks identical to the Forza version. Since I doubt Microsoft gave permission for the conversion like Simbin did for rFactor mods, I won't be using it. I like to try to do things by the book! Thanks anyway.
Edited by SlipStream77 on Saturday 22 November 20:11
SlipStream77 said:
I don't agree with the harsh criticism about AC, I've worked on vehicle dynamics software in the past and I've used sims since before Geoff Crammond's F1GP. In the last few years I've worked on mods, both for rfactor and AC.
In my opinion, AC is now the best sim around for realism, I used to be a big fan of rFactor and I used iRacing for a while too.
Vehicle dynamics are much more complex than most people think, for example a truly accurate tyre model still does not exist, they all use 'fudge factors' or approximations.
I've not been harsh though, I've praised it highly in many ways. Indeed I was there giving it the green-light support and then paying for it from day one. I was very excited by the prospect of this kinda sim for the PC, and the promises made suggested greatness!In my opinion, AC is now the best sim around for realism, I used to be a big fan of rFactor and I used iRacing for a while too.
Vehicle dynamics are much more complex than most people think, for example a truly accurate tyre model still does not exist, they all use 'fudge factors' or approximations.
My misgivings are the way it's been somewhat mis-sold and is changing what it wants to be as it develops. It's very good in some ways, but merely average in others *so far*
On their forums I've noted the tyre model is the best I've experienced in sims. The ability for it to react to all kinds of weird slip states and just work as expected. Lots of sims can fall down here and the fact AC responded just like 'a car' in these conditions was great.
But on the other hand simple things like automatic gearboxes not working properly for a year is quite sad.
But yes AC has a way to go yet so I suppose I'll have to wait till V1 to judge it fairly vs other offerings out there.
Thanks
Dave
I have to confess there are a few oddities, like clutch-less shifting not working in the Lotus 49. Using the clutch in a single seater is an odd concept; in real life you apply pressure to the gearstick and then when you lift the throttle the gear slips in instantly - in fact it's much kinder to the gearbox to do that than use the clutch. Overall though I absolutely love it. I never do races, I just load up a car and a track and have some fun for half an hour a few times a week - I'd pay £100 for that, or more.
I would like rain though....
I would like rain though....
RobM77 said:
I have to confess there are a few oddities, like clutch-less shifting not working in the Lotus 49. Using the clutch in a single seater is an odd concept; in real life you apply pressure to the gearstick and then when you lift the throttle the gear slips in instantly - in fact it's much kinder to the gearbox to do that than use the clutch. Overall though I absolutely love it. I never do races, I just load up a car and a track and have some fun for half an hour a few times a week - I'd pay £100 for that, or more.
I would like rain though....
From what I've read weather is never going to happen and night racing is off the list of possibilities too as headlights will never work properly which is very disappointing.I would like rain though....
Would love to do a night endurance race round the ring.
GrumpyTwig said:
RobM77 said:
I have to confess there are a few oddities, like clutch-less shifting not working in the Lotus 49. Using the clutch in a single seater is an odd concept; in real life you apply pressure to the gearstick and then when you lift the throttle the gear slips in instantly - in fact it's much kinder to the gearbox to do that than use the clutch. Overall though I absolutely love it. I never do races, I just load up a car and a track and have some fun for half an hour a few times a week - I'd pay £100 for that, or more.
I would like rain though....
From what I've read weather is never going to happen and night racing is off the list of possibilities too as headlights will never work properly which is very disappointing.I would like rain though....
Would love to do a night endurance race round the ring.
But then I guess simulator users probably don't care about weather conditions and rain etc, as they're there to use the sims for familiarisations and setups, so sunny fine weather in the day time is fine
But not to be cynical, hopefully they can add these systems later after V1, as I can't see what is so difficult to add them if you've already done so much to even make this game to begin with.
Rob, I just drive AC like that too. I'm more a road car man myself, so prefer some of these road tracks and the road cars and just go for a spin for 30 mins or so.
It's in these on-road hoon type conditions for example where the lack of throttle cut on a down-shift in a LaFerrari or F458 or anything automatic just ruins the enjoyment of 'going for a drive' for me. You're not there to go *as fast as you can*, you're there to just enjoy the car, the noise, the scenery, and may be in the wrong gear, or a higher gear to keep the car tidy, and then when you hit a small straight you want to drop a gear and floor it!
Fingers crossed we'll see that stuff advance after V1!
You see people saying mods are no good, but then you see cars like this which look great. And with decent collaboration can be just as good as anything commercially made in my view.
All the gear to do very good jobs of this stuff is quite well available now, ie, audio recording, owners happy to spare their cars, much better photo-modelling techniques/software approaches, etc etc.
Even good dedicated physics people are out there measuring up and creating the correct suspension kinematics from measurements etc.
OK there will always be a load of poor stuff, but there will also be some really nice stuff too. It's great to see AC attracting great modders already.
Lets just hope the transition to V1 doesn't see a lot of this content needing reworking heavily, or post V1 updates making cars go out of date... stuff like that really hurts modding eventually.
Dave
All the gear to do very good jobs of this stuff is quite well available now, ie, audio recording, owners happy to spare their cars, much better photo-modelling techniques/software approaches, etc etc.
Even good dedicated physics people are out there measuring up and creating the correct suspension kinematics from measurements etc.
OK there will always be a load of poor stuff, but there will also be some really nice stuff too. It's great to see AC attracting great modders already.
Lets just hope the transition to V1 doesn't see a lot of this content needing reworking heavily, or post V1 updates making cars go out of date... stuff like that really hurts modding eventually.
Dave
It's the unknowns about mods that I don't like. With most mods we've no way of knowing how much detail they've gone into with things that affect how the car drives. If a modder can prove they've gone to similar lengths to AC, then that's fair enough, but if a car's not accurate then for me it spoils the sim experience.
RobM77 said:
It's the unknowns about mods that I don't like. With most mods we've no way of knowing how much detail they've gone into with things that affect how the car drives. If a modder can prove they've gone to similar lengths to AC, then that's fair enough, but if a car's not accurate then for me it spoils the sim experience.
Yes that is true.But what lengths do the AC devs go to, to be able to compare with them?
I'd argue that some modded content can end up more realistic than KS stuff... when the modders are really into their physics and not just making car models for the game.
Imo, from a general pov, if it drives ok, looks ok, and sounds good, then good.
If you trust the modder has used generally correct data where it's available, then it's probably about as right as most AC cars.
Again I'm thinking more road cars than race cars, where finding the right balances and compromises for the squishy and damped nature of road cars is more a fine art, than for race cars where this is less of a concern. Ie, does it feel right at 3/10ths, 8/10ths, and at the limit... not so important for the race cars I suppose
Dave
Oh I'm sure they can be more realistic, but we've no way of knowing if they are or not (unless the modder supplies proof). Although if AC specifies a variable I should imagine that variable is measured accurately by Kunos, so I'd expect the official cars to be as accurate as they can be in AC.
The problem is there are very few 'real' values.
All the important ones are inferred into the limited values they might use to describe the cars characteristics.
You can do these by calculating them from known real values, or real life observations, or just working on feel.
All the real values that are in there, there is no reason why any slightly conscientious modder can't get them right.
For all the rest you're just trusting that KS have done a really good job, but you don't know it... and they don't show it... so you're just trusting they do go to the levels you think they should.
Who knows what has changed, but the last time I opened up the 12C data to look at their suspension, it had spring/damper rates in there just the same as for any stiffly sprung super sports road car. And very stiff ARB.
I suddenly thought to myself, if this is 'ok', what else is ok.
Maybe it's been updated, but when basics like clutch behaviour and automatic gearboxes are still wrong so close to V1, it makes you wonder how correct the MP4 12C suspension still is.
Again, not knocking it for the sake of it. Maybe that is the best solution here. BUT you have to appreciate that just because KS made it, it's not a guarantee of anything... just like a modded car isn't a guarantee of inferior setup/physics
Dave
All the important ones are inferred into the limited values they might use to describe the cars characteristics.
You can do these by calculating them from known real values, or real life observations, or just working on feel.
All the real values that are in there, there is no reason why any slightly conscientious modder can't get them right.
For all the rest you're just trusting that KS have done a really good job, but you don't know it... and they don't show it... so you're just trusting they do go to the levels you think they should.
Who knows what has changed, but the last time I opened up the 12C data to look at their suspension, it had spring/damper rates in there just the same as for any stiffly sprung super sports road car. And very stiff ARB.
I suddenly thought to myself, if this is 'ok', what else is ok.
Maybe it's been updated, but when basics like clutch behaviour and automatic gearboxes are still wrong so close to V1, it makes you wonder how correct the MP4 12C suspension still is.
Again, not knocking it for the sake of it. Maybe that is the best solution here. BUT you have to appreciate that just because KS made it, it's not a guarantee of anything... just like a modded car isn't a guarantee of inferior setup/physics
Dave
With regard to the Mclaren, that's a bit of a special case with its "RonGas" suspension. It's obviously a dilemna with what Kunos model for cars like that (for example the P1 and LaFerrari with their dual powertrains, or the GTR with all its electronic gubbins). As you mention though, I'm only interested in pure racing cars with an engine, three pedals and no electronics so it wouldn't affect me at all, in fact I've only driven the MP4-12C and LaFerrari very briefly out of curiosity.
Incidentally, where did you find out the parameters that AC models and takes as input for modders? Could you provide a link?
For the Huayra they claim to use the actual algorithms for the wing deflections, no idea how accurate it is!
"this awesome hypercar has been modeled and reproduced in cooperation with the R&D department at Pagani Automobili, that also provided the algorithms needed to feature the active aero system performed by the Huayra: seven aerodynamic devices simulate drag and downforce, four of them are movable, controlled by sixteen telemetry channels."
"this awesome hypercar has been modeled and reproduced in cooperation with the R&D department at Pagani Automobili, that also provided the algorithms needed to feature the active aero system performed by the Huayra: seven aerodynamic devices simulate drag and downforce, four of them are movable, controlled by sixteen telemetry channels."
RobM77 said:
With regard to the Mclaren, that's a bit of a special case with its "RonGas" suspension. It's obviously a dilemna with what Kunos model for cars like that (for example the P1 and LaFerrari with their dual powertrains, or the GTR with all its electronic gubbins). As you mention though, I'm only interested in pure racing cars with an engine, three pedals and no electronics so it wouldn't affect me at all, in fact I've only driven the MP4-12C and LaFerrari very briefly out of curiosity.
Incidentally, where did you find out the parameters that AC models and takes as input for modders? Could you provide a link?
I'm the other way around, race cars are a curiosity really hehe. So when I drive them I expect them to probably be accurate, but since I've never driven any of these GT cars or single seaters on track I can't know.
The road cars however I've managed to have sampled quite a few over the years.
Dave
RobGT81 said:
For the Huayra they claim to use the actual algorithms for the wing deflections, no idea how accurate it is!
"this awesome hypercar has been modeled and reproduced in cooperation with the R&D department at Pagani Automobili, that also provided the algorithms needed to feature the active aero system performed by the Huayra: seven aerodynamic devices simulate drag and downforce, four of them are movable, controlled by sixteen telemetry channels."
They say all that."this awesome hypercar has been modeled and reproduced in cooperation with the R&D department at Pagani Automobili, that also provided the algorithms needed to feature the active aero system performed by the Huayra: seven aerodynamic devices simulate drag and downforce, four of them are movable, controlled by sixteen telemetry channels."
Now if I go digging and prove that it doesn't do exactly what they say there, then I assume my point will be made?
The data available is all there in the files if you decrypt it, snoop the memory for the variables that are being modified etc.
But my gut tells me from what I've already seen that a lot of what should be correct, isn't correct.
Even the LaFerrari for instance, you can tell the e-motor is attached pre-gearbox, not post gearbox as per reality, by blowing the engine, then driving the car on the e-motor. The gear you choose changes how fast the car accelerates, which it shouldn't if it's attached to the differential end.
I'm sorry to be on the sceptical side of things, but it's tremendously easy to say one thing as a developer, but have simple proof/tests suggest otherwise.
Once you're in that situation what do you do? Trust everything blindly, or be questioning. And when you question and nothing is said what do you assume?
As for the Huayra aero, is it explicitly stated that they implemented the exact system. They have 16 inputs to drive 7 simulated wings, which is impressive. But I'm betting the logic for their activation is somewhat simplified to a few 2d look up tables, rather than vast arrays of 3D maps.
But because they don't explicitly say, what can you do?
Again, the former is probably perfectly acceptable for our needs, and is probably tuned somewhat manually to get the expected feel. I doubt they lifted the exact 3D maps and code from the Huayra and dumped them in AC.
AC won't even use the same sensors/telemetry inputs to begin with vs a real car. Ie, speed is inferred IRL, not known as per sim. Same with slip angles, ratios, wheel speeds, etc etc.
So once again they're selling the idea that it's super simulated by saying Pagani helped them, and indeed that is all great, but the end implementation and feel isn't as per reality at all I doubt.
For all we know, the Huayra in any other half decent simcade game like GT6 or Forza is just as accurate, or pCARS... but they don't allude to it being so.
All that sounds quite critical and ranty, and it's not meant to be.
Simply they say one thing that alludes to excellence, no other developer does this, and yet simple tests often suggest otherwise.
If you're gonna say stuff like this, when no one else does, you have to be open to people calling you up on it when it doesn't appear to ring entirely true
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Tuesday 25th November 12:11
Mr Whippy said:
RobM77 said:
With regard to the Mclaren, that's a bit of a special case with its "RonGas" suspension. It's obviously a dilemna with what Kunos model for cars like that (for example the P1 and LaFerrari with their dual powertrains, or the GTR with all its electronic gubbins). As you mention though, I'm only interested in pure racing cars with an engine, three pedals and no electronics so it wouldn't affect me at all, in fact I've only driven the MP4-12C and LaFerrari very briefly out of curiosity.
Incidentally, where did you find out the parameters that AC models and takes as input for modders? Could you provide a link?
I'm the other way around, race cars are a curiosity really hehe. So when I drive them I expect them to probably be accurate, but since I've never driven any of these GT cars or single seaters on track I can't know.
The road cars however I've managed to have sampled quite a few over the years.
Dave
Here's a video comparison of me in the 2-Eleven vs someone in the same car in AC. My lap was hampered by traffic for a few corners, but you get a fair idea: http://youtu.be/9jQouH8oCGo
Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 25th November 15:02
Hehe, nice video there
Is that your channel, or just your video?
I can see what you mean about sensations you're not reacting to as the wheel input is a lot more steady. I suppose in real life there are bumps that the AC version won't have in there (do they really run a super high def surface, or just a fairly high density 'drive on' render mesh?)
Also there will be lots of slight grip variations too.
Super high frequency stuff that isn't even modelled, like oscillations and vibrations that may impact grip on this kinda car. We know for instance that drive-line wind-up and engine mount energy re-release isn't present, so on-limit throttle balancing situations may feel a bit more 'clean' than they could be in reality.
You only need to ask how important that is, when you see Porsche fitting active engine mounts in real life. It's obvious it makes a tangible measurable difference so for it to be missing in a latest gen ground-up racing sim is bizarre imo!
Yes I think generally they've got each car spot on. Really if all the basics are right, then simply scaling the tyre grip to where it needs to be slightly should result in the correct behaviours. In the end there are only so many variables that determine steady state performances. It's all the non-steady state stuff that makes the cars characteristics though
I guess if they have telemetry to check then that makes life even easier as they can compare lots more stuff like for like with reality.
Ie, how much roll does the car get at X input at Y lateral g steady state.
Then you can be sure the tyre grips are perfect, weight transfers etc. With the race cars I guess they have a lot of this from the specific racing teams which is reassuring!
It's all interesting stuff any way.
For some reason I'm working on a slicks/wings car at the moment (early days for now) even though I don't like driving them haha. I wanted to make it for AC too. From what I can tell no one else has made one for any game or sim yet, so see if you can guess what it might be
When I get to a point of refining physics I might have to pester you for some input given your track experience in something similar ish!
Cheers
Dave
Is that your channel, or just your video?
I can see what you mean about sensations you're not reacting to as the wheel input is a lot more steady. I suppose in real life there are bumps that the AC version won't have in there (do they really run a super high def surface, or just a fairly high density 'drive on' render mesh?)
Also there will be lots of slight grip variations too.
Super high frequency stuff that isn't even modelled, like oscillations and vibrations that may impact grip on this kinda car. We know for instance that drive-line wind-up and engine mount energy re-release isn't present, so on-limit throttle balancing situations may feel a bit more 'clean' than they could be in reality.
You only need to ask how important that is, when you see Porsche fitting active engine mounts in real life. It's obvious it makes a tangible measurable difference so for it to be missing in a latest gen ground-up racing sim is bizarre imo!
Yes I think generally they've got each car spot on. Really if all the basics are right, then simply scaling the tyre grip to where it needs to be slightly should result in the correct behaviours. In the end there are only so many variables that determine steady state performances. It's all the non-steady state stuff that makes the cars characteristics though
I guess if they have telemetry to check then that makes life even easier as they can compare lots more stuff like for like with reality.
Ie, how much roll does the car get at X input at Y lateral g steady state.
Then you can be sure the tyre grips are perfect, weight transfers etc. With the race cars I guess they have a lot of this from the specific racing teams which is reassuring!
It's all interesting stuff any way.
For some reason I'm working on a slicks/wings car at the moment (early days for now) even though I don't like driving them haha. I wanted to make it for AC too. From what I can tell no one else has made one for any game or sim yet, so see if you can guess what it might be
When I get to a point of refining physics I might have to pester you for some input given your track experience in something similar ish!
Cheers
Dave
There is an update, do you have that (0.8.2) - http://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/lamborghin...
Remember until it's a v1 it'll be tweaked as it goes.
Remember until it's a v1 it'll be tweaked as it goes.
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