GT6 - PHPCC - Season 2 - Both Leagues Combine

[RacerMPower]

CJ1987 said:

But plenty of other people won under the old rules; Tron won, Carmo won, Colin won and Viper also won. So other people did definitely win! [/quote

yeah we all won before you came or when the ban rule was applied

Not true – other people won in season 3 when the ban existed.

Similarly, I don’t like gimmicky measures like ballast in BTCC either. If there are faster drivers/teams in real-life motorsport, other people should take personal responsibility to catch up, not wanting a flip-fop of rules to try and get closer.

As an example, you beat me fair and square on tron’s b-road track in season 3 on GT5. It was a fair contest; I picked my car with complete freedom, you picked your car with – you won and were faster. It was my responsibility to be faster, not for the rules to change.

[CJ1987]

would have beaten you twice that night as well if the pit glitch didnt happen but oh well

[Alfanatic]

RacerMPower said:

Not true – other people won in season 3 when the ban existed.

Similarly, I don’t like gimmicky measures like ballast in BTCC either. If there are faster drivers/teams in real-life motorsport, other people should take personal responsibility to catch up, not wanting a flip-fop of rules to try and get closer.

As an example, you beat me fair and square on tron’s b-road track in season 3 on GT5. It was a fair contest; I picked my car with complete freedom, you picked your car with – you won and were faster. It was my responsibility to be faster, not for the rules to change.

CJ won because the PP change by PD suddenly put him in a 740bhp Jaguar. You exercised your freedom of choice and showed your responisibility to be faster by selecting the exact same Jaguar for the next power circuit. You like to win, and you respond accordingly when beaten. Nothing wrong with that.

I beat you, and enjoyed it because it was hard work, but I beat you because I was in a Lotus that was much faster than the car you were driving at the time. Sam put in hours and hours of practice and work to try to beat you. I don't have that kind of free time. There's no way I'm ever going to beat you in identical cars. Your winning streak last season was the worst I've ever seen you have. You won 12 out of 18 races. For you the rules probably didn't work out fairly at all because it meant there were some events where you had no chance of winning no matter how well you drove. For me though they worked out brilliantly because occasionally I actually did have a chance.

The fact that you are faster than me isn't your problem at all. I respect and admire your speed, racecraft and indeed your gracious reaponse on the occasions you do not win. But if any one person is allowed to always be the fastest driver always driving the fastest cars, that is a problem for the championship. Everyone needs to feel like they have some form of chance to do something special on the night, whether it's a podium or better, or just not coming last, because ultimately we are all doing this for fun. To preserve that, the fastest guys need to be handicapped more than the slower ones, simple as that, because the alternative, that the rest of us all just get faster, is certainly pure and fair in concept but it is not practical, and in many cases probably impossible.

You can't deny that even with the rules as they are, the best drivers still win in the end. That is as it should be, but the rest of us need the occasional carrot to give us something to aspire to or look forward to. IMO.

[mr_oversteer]

RacerMPower said:

I hope that racing tyres aren't used, they aren't needed. I would also prefer sport hard tyres, but sport softs are fine at higher pp.

FurballS2000 said:

I don't like slicks!

The thing with less grippy tyres are because cornering speeds are lower the chance to go round a corner 2/3 wide is more likely, less mistakes are made mid corner and therefore you get better racing. Plus it adds to the skill needed round a corner, rather then just turn in you can more easily adjust your like through a corner.

I don't know about anyone else but the best and closest racing I've ever had in GT has been on comfort tyres. I think we should have a race on comforts just so you all get an idea of what i mean.

Edited by mr_oversteer on Saturday 5th April 11:54

[gaz1234]

no higher than 550pp
keep tyres same or less and return higher wear rate at lower laps.

[Carmo99]

Alfanatic said:

...the rest of us need the occasional carrot to give us something to aspire to or look forward to. IMO.

I don't mind so much. I have raced in other leagues so know my personal level (normal just behind Viper). I also think there's an effect between Pads and wheels and auto and manual. In the end, it is what it is.

As an example, I personally prefer one make races, so its down to the driver only. In the race of champions between the 2 leagues it was nice to be up in the top 5 with everyone racing Megans. Its the same in all sports and if we were too many we would run 2 leagues and the fastest would be in the 1st division.

My proposal is no ballast, no extended ban on cars, no specific ban on cars. Tyres at just "not enough" for the PP.
430pp ish with CS or 550 with SS/RH would do for me.

[confucuis]

I don't really have an opinion on tyres as I've never raced CS on cars above 400pp. Regarding the pp for the season as I said before I'm fine with anything on or between 550-600 pp. I like the idea of longer seasons with a single season cool down time for a used car. I'm also up for a two race maximum for each car but if we do that whats the point in actually banning a car for for a season? I feel like there would be no point as the impact of an individual car on a championship would be fairly minimal. I'm with f1, I would prefer to try and be able to catch f1 rather than have him or anybody else handicaped to get close to them. Though I do realise that not everyone has the time or even wants to put that much effort into a champ that they race for fun. Anyway I don't think that we're going to find a solution that suites everyone.

[ecsrobin]

If it was me I'd keep the championship how it is, it's great fun. However I quite like the idea of 2/3 classes lime LMSeries so I can actually have a win I often find that I'm running at the back (except 1-2 races last season) the pack seems to split into 2 most nights.

[OssAndy]

The very nature of the series as it stands now tends to mean those with more time to practice and tune cars will be faster. Personally as a rough guide I find about 1 second per lap for every hour spent practicing before the race each week. It's a double edged sword as I want to race to have fun but to fight for podiums (forget 1st, it seems mostly out of reach) means investing a serious amount of time each week, I'm probably sinking about 5 hours a week into it including the actual race night. It starts to become a chore at that point and although I've had fun with some great battles mid pack, knowing that potential for podiums is there if I had time it can be frustrating.

However, if I wanted to race in a one make series I could, I choose the PHPCC as the group of people are fun to race with. If rules are going to change, I'd favour ones which could reduce the time needed to practice and tune to be competitive, leading to closer racing through the pack.

Maybe that would mean being able to use a car more as once you've found one and tuned it, which takes time, you would get more benefit from it e.g. Finding 3 competitive cars takes ages, 2 takes long enough! I've also liked the fact that the mix of cars and types has been better in season 2 due to tyre and fuel regs so I'd like that to continue.

[iwantanalfa]

I've found that even with hours of practice (And I mean hours. I play a lot anyway) it doesn't take me long to reach my fastest times with the optimum set-up. I may not find the optimum set-up. I might have a bad race. If I'm driving as fast as I can but the fastest driver is at least 4 seconds quicker then I think that something is wrong with my driving or I should have chosen a car I don't like to drive, but will be faster. Once I find my groove with a car there's no way for me to get quicker so I'll test pre-season and be happy with my times. First couple of test sessions online with other people and I then change my cars at least twice trying to work out how I'm so much slower. If I knew that I could choose my cars and practice with them, happy that I want to drive them because I enjoy driving them, then turn up to the first race and not be shocked at my lack of pace, then that'd suit me.

I can accept that I'm not the fastest driver, having had 3 4th places in a row in the 3 full seasons I've competed in the PHPCC, but that was due to having cars that let me finish consistently with the occasional podium. I had more last season because of my car choice. If I hadn't chosen those cars then I'd have struggled and not wanted to race. People will have to finish at the back and in last place but it shouldn't be the same people every week. Car choice needs to be free enough that a midfield driver can pull off a podium/top of the field result, like my Stagea at Le Mans in Season 5 of GT5. That car is rubbish on most tracks but I took its advantages and got a 3rd place.

This championship is designed to be fun so it should have rules that encourage this, as well as keeping it competitive. If I can finish midfield at Le Mans at the end of season race then that'll be an achievement. I've missed a few races and not found cars that I have pace with, but I look for cars that I enjoy driving. These need a chance to be competitive.

If a free reign on car choice is given then people will go towards the fastest cars because, hey, we're competitive and all wouldn't mind winning. Alfanatic is right in that we should all have a chance of winning. The ballast system in Season 5 of GT5 worked well for that because it gave me a chance to be competitive and helped the Stagea have a chance by having no extra weight to shift with a lot more power than the faster cars in the field. A carrot on the end of a stick is needed or some of will just disappear at the back.

As Robin has said about classes, that would give me an incentive to do well each night, regardless of what car I was in. Racing against the same small number of drivers each week for class points would encourage me to do better, to try and go faster and get into the top class. Even if I got relegated the next season, at least I'd have made it to the top tier and confirmed to myself that I do have some speed.

I don't know the exact ways to make all these changes but I have some thoughts:

Bring back ballast to give slower drivers a chance
Split drivers into classes so we all have achievable class wins - everyone in their class should be able to get at least 1 class win a season
No car classes/restrictions - The 'fast car' for the PP may not suit you, as you could be faster in a different car
A mid and/or end of season one make race/class of car race for fun - Such as Le Mans Prototypes, estates, pick ups, Pre-70's - we might find a hidden talent who leaves us all for dust

I have respect for all the drivers in the championship, regardless of how fast they are, but everyone should have a chance at winning something, on a higher level than being the only car of a certain class in the field or similar.

[CJ1987]

quite a wall of text to come back to but good to see yous talking about it

I can understand points from both sides but what ive got to do is to strike a balance that makes everyone happy. On one hand i want to balance the field as much as possible to create more battles and closer racing which would also give the people at the back something to fight for but i dont want to nerf the quick guys too much as this would be unfair to them.

Now there's a few ways i can do this which could involve:

• giving the quicker guys slower tyres so for example mediums instead of softs
• applying ballast
• Limiting car choice slightly
• Grouping drivers so that even if your 7th for example you still want to fight hard to beat the other guys in your group

These are only ideas but hopefully everyone can see that i have a difficult task in creating a balanced system so as many people as possible have a chance to win/get a podium and most importantly have fun racing

[RacerMPower]

Alfanatic said:

RacerMPower said:

Not true – other people won in season 3 when the ban existed.

Similarly, I don’t like gimmicky measures like ballast in BTCC either. If there are faster drivers/teams in real-life motorsport, other people should take personal responsibility to catch up, not wanting a flip-fop of rules to try and get closer.

As an example, you beat me fair and square on tron’s b-road track in season 3 on GT5. It was a fair contest; I picked my car with complete freedom, you picked your car with – you won and were faster. It was my responsibility to be faster, not for the rules to change.

CJ won because the PP change by PD suddenly put him in a 740bhp Jaguar. You exercised your freedom of choice and showed your responisibility to be faster by selecting the exact same Jaguar for the next power circuit. You like to win, and you respond accordingly when beaten. Nothing wrong with that.

I beat you, and enjoyed it because it was hard work, but I beat you because I was in a Lotus that was much faster than the car you were driving at the time. Sam put in hours and hours of practice and work to try to beat you. I don't have that kind of free time. There's no way I'm ever going to beat you in identical cars. Your winning streak last season was the worst I've ever seen you have. You won 12 out of 18 races. For you the rules probably didn't work out fairly at all because it meant there were some events where you had no chance of winning no matter how well you drove. For me though they worked out brilliantly because occasionally I actually did have a chance.

The fact that you are faster than me isn't your problem at all. I respect and admire your speed, racecraft and indeed your gracious reaponse on the occasions you do not win. But if any one person is allowed to always be the fastest driver always driving the fastest cars, that is a problem for the championship. Everyone needs to feel like they have some form of chance to do something special on the night, whether it's a podium or better, or just not coming last, because ultimately we are all doing this for fun. To preserve that, the fastest guys need to be handicapped more than the slower ones, simple as that, because the alternative, that the rest of us all just get faster, is certainly pure and fair in concept but it is not practical, and in many cases probably impossible.

You can't deny that even with the rules as they are, the best drivers still win in the end. That is as it should be, but the rest of us need the occasional carrot to give us something to aspire to or look forward to. IMO.

My main point was that when car choice was completely free, somebody chose a car in that event, I chose a car – and someone else’s car was better and they also drove better – that person being Colin. It was a fair contest; no gimmicks, handicaps etc.

I can understand the points you make, for drivers lower down the order it probably does feel demoralising finishing far behind. We probably won’t agree on this point, but I think the fastest people or cars shouldn’t be slowed down. However, that doesn’t mean that rules don’t need changing. IMO, the return of more regular tyre/fuel wear has made the racing better, with more battles throughout the field. Plus, as Andy touched on, it now means that new comers can pick a wider range of cars without the fear of them being completely off the pace. I do like change, but the change has to actually improve something, rather than arbitrary rules being introduced.

Also, I actually do agree with measures that make things more user-friendly for newcomers. For example, I think we should race on tyres that are on the softer side, but not slicks. Everyone will have different abilities, but tyres should be grippy to compensate for that range of abilities which doesn’t make the cars a handful.

I agree with you that faster drivers will probably usually still be faster, despite rule changes designed to narrow the gap front-to-rear, but again we won’t agree with this, but the responsibility to go faster should rest on the competitor, not rule changes.

[RacerMPower]

mr_oversteer said:

RacerMPower said:

I hope that racing tyres aren't used, they aren't needed. I would also prefer sport hard tyres, but sport softs are fine at higher pp.

FurballS2000 said:

I don't like slicks!

The thing with less grippy tyres are because cornering speeds are lower the chance to go round a corner 2/3 wide is more likely, less mistakes are made mid corner and therefore you get better racing. Plus it adds to the skill needed round a corner, rather then just turn in you can more easily adjust your like through a corner.

I don't know about anyone else but the best and closest racing I've ever had in GT has been on comfort tyres. I think we should have a race on comforts just so you all get an idea of what i mean.

Edited by mr_oversteer on Saturday 5th April 11:54

I almost completely agree with you – in an ideal world there is a much bigger thrill of a production vehicle on sport or comfort tyres. However, the harder compounds won’t suit everyone if they don’t have much experience or if a particular car is tricky – softer compounds will partially disguise handling deficiencies if someone really wants to use a particular car.

This is perhaps a paradox for me; at the same time I don’t like many peanlising measures on quick drivers, however, I do prefer that tyres stay fairly soft but within reason (no slicks) to ensure that the cars aren’t too tricky to steer. It is better for competition imo.

[RacerMPower]

CJ1987 said:

quite a wall of text to come back to but good to see yous talking about it

I can understand points from both sides but what ive got to do is to strike a balance that makes everyone happy. On one hand i want to balance the field as much as possible to create more battles and closer racing which would also give the people at the back something to fight for but i dont want to nerf the quick guys too much as this would be unfair to them.

Now there's a few ways i can do this which could involve:

• giving the quicker guys slower tyres so for example mediums instead of softs
• applying ballast
• Limiting car choice slightly
• Grouping drivers so that even if your 7th for example you still want to fight hard to beat the other guys in your group

These are only ideas but hopefully everyone can see that i have a difficult task in creating a balanced system so as many people as possible have a chance to win/get a podium and most importantly have fun racing

If grouping drivers means no ballast, arbitrary car limits and a bizarre tyre difference between drivers, I would find the driver grouping thing okay. It could give a "carrot" for those who wanted it - gives them something meaningful to fight for whilst not introducing arbitrary rules.

[CJ1987]

RacerMPower said:

If grouping drivers means no ballast, arbitrary car limits and a bizarre tyre difference between drivers, I would find the driver grouping thing okay. It could give a "carrot" for those who wanted it - gives them something meaningful to fight for whilst not introducing arbitrary rules.

dislike the word "arbitrary" as you know by now F1 that i spend a lot of time working out rules or testing settings so whilst from mid season on people are setting cars up for the next race im spending my time testing settings for the next season out which might hinder my race pace but dont mind it long as it results in some good racing and people have fun then thats my reward for putting the effort in so take offence at anyone suggesting anything is done on a whim or rules are there for my own benefit and not everyone else.

Most of the time you see me on GT6 is testing ideas out which doesnt benefit me in anyway and i hope that all the effort shows for you guys because i could take the easy option but dont as its not the fairest way for yourselves so hopefully we can get back into a reasonable discussion rather than making sniping remarks just because you arent 100% happy with the ideas being put forth because at the end of the day they are only ideas atm.

[Alfanatic]

For me, and as I think F1 has mentioned before, the best racing tends to be on the simplest and most forgiving tracks, because the field keeps together more. I would think the same thing goes for tyres, but then again the tyres have always been reasonably sticky for the PP in the PHPCC, so for all I know choosing slippery tyres might give the best racing ever. I'm easy either way.

On the other suggestions I actually think the rules as they are do a pretty good job. I'd be happy to change down to two cars per season, and to longer seasons but not double the length. I'd also be happy with a slightly longer break between seasons, both of these changes would give me more time to enjoy the rest of the game a bit more, at the moment whenever I am on GT I am preparing for a PHPCC event.

I support the 2 season car ban still. Without it I'd be able to enjoy my favourites more often, for instance I'd have liked to race the Countach again in GT5, and the Esprit became a personal favourite, but I will always remember season 4 where every second car was an Evora, an RX8 or a 111R. The fact that we were all free to choose whatever cars we wanted actually caused us to all choose the same cars, more or less. To my eyes the 2 season car ban has improved the variety of cars used and forced me to find new heroes like the Countach.

[RacerMPower]

From what I see in the lobbies, the vast majority of players use nothing but racing softs. Finding lobbies with sensible tyres can be tricky. I think so far on GT6 we have had a great compromise; not ridiculously grippy like racing softs, but not tyres that make cars too much of a handful (that will always be subjective, but in terms of the actual driving and excluding where they might finish, we should accommodate different abilities within reason).

I like the vast majority of circuits we use. Rome Reverse has always been an iffy place to race; the reverse layout has always felt like a bad after-thought – that fast left hander is just asking for trouble. Whereas something like Grand Valley reverse is a perfectly fine course for racing.

It isn’t a big issue for me, but places like Eiger, Rome R, Autumn Mini should be avoided imo - especially now we appear to have grids on the fuller side. Cape Ring this season, Seca and others are just fine imo.

Bigger gap between seasons starting and ending – I don’t mind this idea. I believe we used to have a two week gap (could have got that wrong) and I liked it.

[gaz1234]

gaz1234 said:

no higher than 550pp
keep tyres same or less and return higher wear rate at lower laps.

And 2 week gap.

[ecsrobin]

Gentleman I think I have the solution!!!



F1 is only allowed to drive the Schwimwagen (bright pink of course) it's about 427PP fully tuned and handles like a go kart so if you can't keep up with him or beat him then it's time to take up knitting.

[CJ1987]

ecsrobin said:

Gentleman I think I have the solution!!!



F1 is only allowed to drive the Schwimwagen (bright pink of course) it's about 427PP fully tuned and handles like a go kart so if you can't keep up with him or beat him then it's time to take up knitting.

+1